Apr 25, 2012, 07:44 PM
I have approximately 100 different bottle related websites saved in my favorites file. After conducting a brief search through several of them, this 1954 whiskey magazine ad is the latest one I could find showing a removed cork. All of the ads later than this appear to use threaded metal caps.
1954 Cork Cap
Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; Apr 25, 2012 at 08:10 PM.
Apr 25, 2012 07:44 PM
Apr 25, 2012, 08:02 PM
I will work just as hard to prove myself wrong. Thats what you dont realize, timekiller. You should know me by now.
Ok the cork top wont help. I guess its possible to extend my date range 1890-1954 but I still dont see how the 1900's can be eliminated?
The trade name of this bottle appears to be "Delaware Brandy" and it was manufactured in 1905. There are many examples of early whiskeys using this bottle. It appears they have used this design for many years. It all hinges on the manganese color,. or the 3 piece mold.
I realize the 3 piece mould is not proven but can a 3 piece mould be ABM?
(after i post, I reread it and make corrections or even add thoughts)
Last edited by Bigcypresshunter; Apr 25, 2012 at 08:06 PM.
Reason: make corrections
Apr 25, 2012, 08:05 PM
And here's the earliest whiskey ad I can find showing a screw cap, which is dated 1964. But don't let this confuse you, because threaded caps actually go back to the late 1800s. I'm just referring to the newer bottles here and not pre 1900 examples. As for the gap between 1954 and 1964 ~ I can't say at the moment because all of those particular ads show a paper or foil wrap on the bottle closure. But I honestly think its safe to say if the bottle in question is newer, that it's circa 1960ish at the latest.
1964 Screw Cap
Apr 25, 2012, 08:10 PM
Many of those newer bottles will have numbers on the bottom but I dont know if this proves anything. The kick up bottom did seem to me to be out of place
Apr 25, 2012, 08:15 PM
Im baseing a lot of my later beliefs on the three part mould but it may not be as clear cut as I imagined. I didnt know 3 part mould seams appeared in the 60s.
Either way the OP says hes learning from the discussion.
Last edited by Bigcypresshunter; Apr 25, 2012 at 08:19 PM.
Apr 25, 2012, 08:18 PM
Big Cy ~
The fact there is no makers mark and/or mold numbers on the base of the bottle, convinces me more than anything now that it's pre 1920. It is extremely rare to find a true machine made bottle (after 1920-1930 ) without some type of embossed mark on the bottom. I promise you that! Thus, more than ever I am feeling confident about my circa 1905-1915 estimate.
Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; Apr 25, 2012 at 08:24 PM.
Apr 25, 2012, 08:21 PM
Do you have any Southern Comfort corktops or any whiskey with this fluted design?
Apr 25, 2012, 08:25 PM
I was pretty confident myself but seeing how upset another member was, Im just not so sure. Im not 100 percent certain. We may need to wait on the new pics.
Apr 25, 2012, 08:34 PM
Extremely rare to almost never the case with 1930s and later bottles!
Originally Posted by skite
Apr 25, 2012, 08:44 PM
I want to take this opportunity to apologize to everyone for failing to read skite's statement that I just posted. Had I realized this earlier, I would have been all over it like white on rice. I guarantee you 1,000% that a bottle without a makers mark or any mold numbers on it somewhere is definitely pre 1930s. In fact, there was a law established in 1914 that required the contents to be embossed on all food and beverage containers. Next time I will read everything first.
Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; Apr 25, 2012 at 08:48 PM.
Apr 25, 2012, 08:56 PM
Read all about it!
On March 3, 1913, Congress passed H. R. 22526, generally known as the Gould Amendment to the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906. Although the Pure Food and Drug Act demanded a great deal of labeling information, it did not require the inclusion of volume specification. The Gould Amendment corrected that oversight when it stated that the "quantity of the contents be . . . plainly and conspicuously marked on the outside of the package in terms of weight, measure, or numerical count" but continued to explain that "reasonable variations shall be permitted." Although the law went into effect immediately, it clarified that "no penalty of fine, imprisonment, or confiscation shall be enforced for any violation of its provisions as to domestic products prepared or foreign products imported prior to eighteen months after its passage" (U. S. 1913:732). In other words, the industry actually had a grace period in required compliance until September 3, 1914.
Apr 25, 2012, 08:59 PM
I am changing my estimated date for skite's bottle to ...
September 3, 1914 ... at the latest!
Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; Apr 25, 2012 at 09:11 PM.
Apr 25, 2012, 09:22 PM
In case you're wondering about the contents being visible on the glass itself vs paper labels, every account I have ever read on the subject and every collector I know of typically use the 1914 Gould Amendment deadline as referring to the contents being "embossed" on the glass. (Although I'm sure there are exceptions). This is especially true of soda and many other types of bottles that did not use paper labels. I have even read accounts where merchants were fined and bottles pulled off their shelves if they didn't comply with the new law. Glass makers got in on the act too, thinking it was better to play it safe and emboss the contents on the bottle when they were made, as opossed to hoping a paper label would include it.
Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; Apr 25, 2012 at 09:35 PM.
Apr 25, 2012, 09:49 PM
I have to keep a fan on my computer because it gets hot. I never waivered from my original ID or deleted any no matter what anyone says but I was starting to wonder if I somehow missed something. Great work Bob. I have some more to add..
Apr 25, 2012, 09:57 PM
I have several links that say "the embossing "Federal Law Forbids Sale or Re-use of this Bottle" were made between 1935 and the 1960s
Apr 25, 2012, 10:02 PM
Big Cy ~
I wouldn't sweat the little stuff like editing. That's why we have that option ... to make corrections. I do it all of the time because I'm a stickler for composition, spelling, grammer, etc. And if someone wants to change something that changes one conclusion to another, so be it. Its a free country. And that's also why we have the "Reply With Quote" option for those who choose to employ it. I'm not taking sides, I'm just saying its no big deal as far as I'm concerned.
Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; Apr 25, 2012 at 10:08 PM.
Apr 25, 2012, 10:03 PM
Liquor/Spirits Bottles This link mentions Illinois Glass Co (my book) and it also mentions the Brandy trade names. This was posted earlier by someone I wont mention but it would seem to support what I have said all along. Scroll down you can click on the purple bottle and see closeups of neck and the bottom. I still think however this bottle has a chance to make the 1890s but we will have to wait and see on the pictures.
Apr 25, 2012, 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by Bigcypresshunter
But don't forget ... skite's said his bottle had zero embossing. No way it's later than 1920 ... max! And probably no later than 1914.
Apr 25, 2012, 10:08 PM
Dont ever take sides. Stay nuetral. Stick to the ID. Never get personal.
I think my mind moves a lot faster than I can type and I will add additional thoughts as I read it back over instead of starting a new reply. But I can see how someone might misinterpret this into thinking I am somehow cheating or flip flopping. I have been known to delete something that I said in anger that may offend someone. But Im leaving everything here. Im not taking anything back or apologizing because I am still a bit ticked off.
Apr 25, 2012, 10:13 PM
For the record. Timekiller is a great asset (edit tremendous) to this forum. He is more knowlegable than I could ever attain to be, especially with Colonial items. Thats all Im saying about that.
I guess someone needs to post over at the bottle forum and tell them. Its all a learning experience.
"Red knows best"
Last edited by Bigcypresshunter; Apr 25, 2012 at 10:33 PM.
Reason: added print screen image
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