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  1. #41
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    I don't wish to throw a monkey wrench into the works, but after doing some extensive research on photography, I am about 95% certain that my photograph is an "Albumen" print. Which, if I'm correct, means it is very likely to be late 1800s or very early 1900s. I'm not entirely sure how to prove this, but based on everything I have learned and by comparing it to old family photos that I'm sure of regarding the dates, I have every reason to believe it is a genuine albumen photograph. The following link is one of the best I have seen on how to properly identify the age of various photographs, and is about the only way I know of to make my point. Open the link and then click on 7) Albumen. The six most distinctive features that indicate my photo is an albumen are ...

    1. Super thin paper. And I mean "Super thin."
    2. Sepia toned (Brownish).
    3. I can "see" traces of paper fibers with a magnifying glass.
    4. Textured, fiberous paper. Not smooth or glossy in any manner.
    5. Slightly hand colored. Look real close and you will see a hint of green in the grass.
    6. Slightly pinkish.

    Check out number 7) on the link and you will have a better understanding of what I'm trying to say.

    Link: How to Date, Identify and Authenticate Photographs / Authenticating Photographs (Cycleback.com)

    So what does this mean if I'm correct? It means my photograph and the player pictured are very, very likely ...

    Pre 1910

    I may need to have it examined by a photo expert eventually, but in the meantime I'm going to restructure my searches back to ...

    Circa 1900

    I'll be back.

    SBB

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Baseball Picture - Scanned 001.jpg 
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ID:	633877
    Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; May 09, 2012 at 11:11 AM.

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  3. #42

    Mar 2006
    63
    2 times
    Being the inquisitive sort, this whole thing has me quite interested. In an earlier post I believe you said you could make out CH--- on the building. I've looked up the names of every town and city in the Midwest, and Chokio is the only town in a Midwest state with 5 letters with a grain elevator (of course, it could also be a county or township name).

    Another reason I'm leaning toward Chokio is because it is on the western side of MN, which was home to the Red River Valley League, which had minor league teams in nearby Fergus Falls, Moorhead, and Brekenridge in the late 1890s. Since most of these teams consisted of "local boys", that might explain why the picture was taken. I've been able to find the 1897 rosters of 2 of the 3 teams so far. Since 1897 was the league's only season, it would fit the time frame of the photo.

    It seems that the lettering on the grain elevator is the key to cracking this case.
    Last edited by zendog64; May 09, 2012 at 03:04 AM.

  4. #43
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    Quote Originally Posted by zendog64 View Post

    It seems that the lettering on the grain elevator is the key to cracking this case.

    I agree 100%! So I either need a stronger magnifying glass or a "microscope." There are definitely words on the building. And after zoom in on it a jillion times, I still believe the first two letters are Ch Chokio? Could be!

    Thanks again.

    Bob

  5. #44
    us
    Tennessee Digger

    Sep 2011
    Tesoro and Troy Shadow
    1,148
    284 times
    I'm afraid that I can't add much to the photo but I do want to commend you for your excellent research! I'm impressed. You are relentless!!!! Tennessee digger

  6. #45
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    zendog64 ~

    How'z about posting the roster you mentioned or a link to it for us to check out? The dates sound about right and it might lead to another clue or two. And thanks for helping to solve this. I know first hand the time it requires to hunt something down and then try to make sense of it. Much appreciated.


    tennessee digger ~

    Thanks for the kudos. I'll try not to disappoint your confidence in me. And actually, you can help. Since everyone knows as much about the photo now as I do, and can examine and judge it for themselves, how'z about sharing your opinion as to what you think the age of the player is?

    16 or 36? Or somewhere in between? I won't say what I think and will let you be the first to respond.

    Gracias'

    SBB
    Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; May 09, 2012 at 11:05 AM.

  7. #46
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    PS ~

    The first person who can find and post a genuine oldtime photo of a baseball player wearing the exact same two colored cap wins a prize. And if you can prove the date of the photo you find, your prize will be doubled. (Prize(s) to be determined).

    Thanks.

    Bob


    Name:  Baseball Picture - Scanned - Nose and Ears.jpg
Views: 325
Size:  32.4 KB

    1888 Spalding Ad. No. 11 or 19.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Baseball Cap - Spalding 1888.jpg 
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ID:	633916

    I've seen references that refer to the flat one's as ... Pill Box ~ Painter's ~ Railroad Type. To me they look like "Chain Gang" or "Prison Inmate" hats. (Lol)

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Chain Gang Photo.jpg 
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ID:	633918
    Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; May 09, 2012 at 12:00 PM.

  8. #47
    us
    Dec 2004
    South Florida
    70's Whites TM Amphibian, HH Pulse, Ace 250
    23,606
    744 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting
    Nobody would frame a picture of a baseball player unless they were famous or a family member. Have you identified the players position by the location of the cameraman? This seems to be a picture taken during practice or during an actual game. The arm is in motion causing a blur. It would seem a family member would pose for a better picture unless the cameraman was trying to capture the moment. But you will probably need to identify the ballpark first before identifying the player. Its too bad there are no markings.

  9. #48
    us
    Dec 2004
    South Florida
    70's Whites TM Amphibian, HH Pulse, Ace 250
    23,606
    744 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting
    Is this the only pic you found with this cap? Thats good news in a way.

    Have you tried old baseball cards?
    Last edited by Bigcypresshunter; May 09, 2012 at 11:41 AM.

  10. #49
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigcypresshunter View Post
    Is this the only pic you found with this cap? Thats good news in a way.
    Yes. That's one reason why I'm offering a prize. I have looked endlessly for another one like it but have not been able to yet.

    SBB

  11. #50
    us
    Dec 2004
    South Florida
    70's Whites TM Amphibian, HH Pulse, Ace 250
    23,606
    744 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting
    Thats an odd cap. I did a little search and Im not seeing it. But thats good news it will narrow down the search to find what teams used it and in what years.

    That picture shouild have value just for the cap. I havent read everything but its looking like 1800's.
    Last edited by Bigcypresshunter; May 09, 2012 at 11:54 AM.

  12. #51
    us
    Dec 2004
    South Florida
    70's Whites TM Amphibian, HH Pulse, Ace 250
    23,606
    744 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting
    I know this is not it but the odd cap may be of interest. http://www.milehighcardco.com/LotIma...6448a_med.jpeg
    Last edited by Bigcypresshunter; May 09, 2012 at 12:02 PM.

  13. #52
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    I wonder why that card says Athlete on top but Pedestrian on the bottom?

    SBB

  14. #53
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    Pictured is a 1911 Spalding ad. The two-colored cap is not featured. The link it to a website which list a 1889-1890 Spalding catalog that sold for $1,500. It's the same or similar to the 1888 ad I posted.

    SBB

    Link: Sports Antique of the Week April 26th- May 2nd 2009 - 1889-90 A.G. Spalding Sporting Goods Catalog

    1911 Spalding Ad.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Spalding Ad 1911.jpg 
Views:	502 
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ID:	633923
    Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; May 09, 2012 at 12:35 PM.

  15. #54
    us
    Dec 2004
    South Florida
    70's Whites TM Amphibian, HH Pulse, Ace 250
    23,606
    744 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by SODABOTTLEBOB View Post
    I wonder why that card says Athlete on top but Pedestrian on the bottom?

    SBB
    I dont know but if a 2 toned hat was used for the Negro Leagues, it might explain why it wasnt so popular.

    I find this type but not the same. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gQe4uJIYvE...los+Royerx.JPG

    Congrats you found what looks like an 1880-1890's photo with a not often used cap.
    Last edited by Bigcypresshunter; May 09, 2012 at 12:40 PM.

  16. #55
    us
    Dec 2004
    South Florida
    70's Whites TM Amphibian, HH Pulse, Ace 250
    23,606
    744 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting

  17. #56
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    Big Cy ~

    You get an "E" for effort but no cigar just yet. But its definitely a good clue. That card is hilarious. I never heard of Baby McKee.

    Thanks.

    Bob
    Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; May 09, 2012 at 01:05 PM.

  18. #57
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    Just a little more food for thought ...

    Collars

    • Teams around the turn of the 20th century typically wore fold-down collars on their jerseys. The New York Giants introduced the major leagues to collarless jerseys in 1906. The Giants started another jersey trend in 1908 with their V-neck collars with slight extensions, the style a compromise between the collarless jerseys and the military-style collars that were in fashion. The look was a hit, and most major league jerseys sported these collars in the 1920s. By the 1930s, the simple collarless jersey took over as professional baseball's standard look. With the exception of a brief flirtation with a faux full-collar jersey by the Chicago White Sox in the late 1970s, the last time a full-collared jersey was seen on a major league team was the 1913 Chicago Cubs.




    Read more: History of the Baseball Uniform Jersey | eHow.com History of the Baseball Uniform Jersey | eHow.com

  19. #58
    us
    Dec 2004
    South Florida
    70's Whites TM Amphibian, HH Pulse, Ace 250
    23,606
    744 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by SODABOTTLEBOB View Post
    Big Cy ~

    That card is hilarious. I never heard of Baby McKee.

    Thanks.

    Bob
    She played in the Midwest Toddler Leagues.

    The link says this cap was not popular.
    National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform


    The “Jockey Shape Cap” (No. 11), patterned after the caps worn in the horse-racing circuit, featured a long bill and large round crown. Though not particularly popular at the time, it is the cap most similar to the modern-day baseball cap.

    The “Skull Cap” (No. 19) was similar to the “Jockey Shape Cap,” except that the bill was much shorter.

  20. #59
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    Um, ah ... I found an illustrated ad which shows the two-colored cap worn by a player and is dated. But since I can't win my own prize I am a little hesitant to post it just yet. Should I wait and see what develops or just go ahead and post it now?

    Clue: The ad is a "lot" older than you might think. But this is not to say it's the exact cap in my photo, but rather that it is very similar and is two-colored.

    While I'm waiting to decide what to do, here's an interesting bit of information that refers to those types of caps as having a star pattern. But I'm not sure if they are referring to the stitching or the color. What do you make of it?

    When I copied/pasted it I did the bold red myself.

    SBB

    In 1860 the Brooklyn Excelsiors took the field with the first version of the modern baseball cap. The “Brooklyn-style” cap with a long visor and a button on top became very popular by 1900. However, many other styles were available in the late 1860’s, including the “No.1” which featured a star pattern on the crown. This cap was worn by amateur clubs including the Philadelphia Athletics, New York Gothams and New York Mutuals. In 1888 prices ranged from 12 cents for a cheap muslin cap to $2.00 for the highest-quality flannel.

    Link: Western Wear, Cowboy Hats and Boots, Apparel - Stetson Official Site
    Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; May 09, 2012 at 05:22 PM.

  21. #60
    us
    Dec 2004
    South Florida
    70's Whites TM Amphibian, HH Pulse, Ace 250
    23,606
    744 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting
    Remember the Negro League athelete? It appears my hunch may have been correct as to it unpopularity..

    This hat was used by Jockeys on the horse racing circuit in the 1880's.

    I found an 1890 cigar box artwork featuring black horse racing jockey in typical racing silks. Almost all US jockeys in the 19th century were black Original lawn jockey original cast iron lawn jockey replica
    Attachment 634048
    Its an old cap allright. 1880's. The question is what white baseball team officially used a cap modeled after a jockey cap?

 

 
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