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  1. #121
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    Franklin ~

    Okay, great! Please let us work on what you claim and see if we can find some information to support it and possibly lead to something. I admit I can't see what you see, but will try and make some sense of it anyway.

    Thanks.

    Bob

    I use what's called "Internet Explorer Photo Gallery" which allows me to work with photos in various ways. Every picture I've posted of the photo and frame were done with a scanner. I experimented with various resolutions ranging from 200 to 2400. The following is the best I can do at 2400. I'm not very good at this photo stuff and likely will not mess with it anymore. That's something for an expert to do, which definitely isn't me.

    2400 resolution and darkened to help make the words readable.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Image (573x700).jpg 
Views:	50 
Size:	254.1 KB 
ID:	634440


    Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; May 10, 2012 at 07:58 PM.

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  3. #122
    us
    Dec 2004
    South Florida
    70's Whites TM Amphibian, HH Pulse, Ace 250
    23,601
    751 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Franklin View Post
    Your arrow is pointing to 1888 and just below that is No. 6 The SAA is at the very top of the mill and below it is the name of the town, Wil----y, Minn but I have been unable to find this town there is a Wilona or something to that effect that had a baseball team in the 1880's It definitely says MINN and the other things I was saying. Most of that is just behind the baseball cap at the top of the mill.
    You see "1888" and he sees "Purina". There is a big difference, so somebody is wrong.. He also sees nothing at all on the backside and neither do I.

    You are using words like "definitely" and "correct" but it seems you are just guessing. What happened to the words "Montgomery Texas"?

    An arrow pointing on the backside may help point Bob, or anyone else, to look harder in the proper place.. Something is very wrong here.

  4. #123
    us
    Dec 2004
    South Florida
    70's Whites TM Amphibian, HH Pulse, Ace 250
    23,601
    751 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Here is the back of the frame best I could show it says "Vanquest" "350 W" Then TRO that's all I can see besides the XxK[ATTACH=CONFIG
    634442[/ATTACH]
    Ok thats more like it. At least I have an idea what you are talking about. I wish we could enlarge it. The way you are posting we cannot easily click on it to enlarge.

    I see the XxK but it could just as well be scratches. I dont see the Vanquest, maybe Bob at least will know where to look now. Thanks.
    Last edited by Bigcypresshunter; May 10, 2012 at 08:11 PM.

  5. #124
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    2400 Cropped

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Baseball Photo 2400 Cropped.jpg 
Views:	34 
Size:	379.1 KB 
ID:	634444

  6. #125
    us
    Dec 2004
    South Florida
    70's Whites TM Amphibian, HH Pulse, Ace 250
    23,601
    751 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by SODABOTTLEBOB View Post
    Franklin ~

    The following is the best I can do at 2400. I'm not very good at this photo stuff and likely will not mess with it anymore. That's something for an expert to do, which definitely isn't me.

    2400 resolution and darkened to help make the words readable.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Image (573x700).jpg 
Views:	50 
Size:	254.1 KB 
ID:	634440


    I just wanted to make sure you were posting at the highest resolution.. Well Franklin told you were Vanquest is so maybe you can find the scratches that look like XxK and look above it.

  7. #126
    us
    Dec 2004
    South Florida
    70's Whites TM Amphibian, HH Pulse, Ace 250
    23,601
    751 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting
    I decided to play along. Im posting the XxY enlarged 2x. I also painted the XxY or Xky in the second pic.

    I would say its possible we are looking at no more than scratches and I cannot see anything else resembling letters but Ill wait to see what Bob thinks. He has it in person.
    Attachment 634447Attachment 634448

    Is this on the wood or the paper?
    Last edited by Bigcypresshunter; May 10, 2012 at 08:32 PM.

  8. #127
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    I hate to disappoint, but the so called marks on the back of the metal are cracks in the paint. Triple click on the picture below or go back to the one I posted on page one and you will be able to see some of the cracks I'm referring to. I assure you, there is no pencil writing on anything. At this juncture I suggest we work with what we already know for certain, which is to try and date it by the style of the uniform, and not rack our brains with intangibles that might and might not exist.

    Thanks.

    Bob


    Triple click for best results.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Baseball Picture Frame - Scanned 001.jpg 
Views:	33 
Size:	283.5 KB 
ID:	634457

  9. #128
    us
    Dec 2004
    South Florida
    70's Whites TM Amphibian, HH Pulse, Ace 250
    23,601
    751 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting
    I didnt know how to triple click. Thats cool.

  10. #129
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    After careful consideration and considerable research regarding the evidence presented thus far, I have decided to call it quits on the building and the words on the building and focus 100% of my attention in trying to date the uniform. And irregardless of whether it turns out to be 1880 or 1920, I will be more than happy with whatever date it turns out to be. I realize that determining a date is what Franklin and others (myself included) have tried to do by drawing attention to the building, but since it seems to be confusing us more than helping us, I for one have pretty much reached a dead-end on that particular aspect. So if there is anyone among us now or in the future who is intimately familar with vintage baseball uniforms, please let us know what era it was made by selecting from the following ...

    1. 1870s
    2. 1880s
    3. 1890s
    4. Early 1900s
    5. 1910s
    6. 1920s
    7. 1930s

    I'm so confused and uncertain myself that I can barely venture a guess. In other words, I honestly don't know what era it was made in, and guessing is getting me nowhere. If and when I hear back from any of the other inquires I sent, you can be certain that I will share that information with the hope that whoever replies really knows their stuff. Surely there's someone in this old world who can accurately date a simple baseball uniform. Don't ya think?

    Thanks to each and every individual who participated and took an interest in this crazy, but hopefully educational discussion.

    Sodabottlebob

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Baseball Picture Framed 001.jpg 
Views:	23 
Size:	213.9 KB 
ID:	634502
    Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; May 10, 2012 at 10:42 PM.

  11. #130
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    Just for the fun of it I thought I'd include this ...

    SBB

    Name:  Purina Chows - Elevator.jpg
Views: 93
Size:  62.8 KB

  12. #131

    Mar 2006
    63
    2 times
    IF the building does say Purina, keep in mind that the company wasn't founded until 1894...so that may help you whittle the date down by a few years.

    Also, beginning in 1902, the company's name was officially known as the Ralston-Purina Company, and this is the name which appeared on advertisements until 1904, when Purina adopted the famous red checkerboard logo.

    So if the building does say Purina, we can estimate the photo to be from between 1894 and 1902.
    Last edited by zendog64; May 11, 2012 at 12:34 AM.

  13. #132
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    zendog64 ~

    I noticed your capital IF ... an uncertainty or doubt: the big if is whether our plan will work at all ... which is the same thing as a big question mark like this? IF also seems to be the word of the day. What IF the building and sign were still there today and someone had their picture taken in front of it, does that mean years from now that the today picture can be dated just because of the old sign? In other words, the sign might be 1902, but the photo could still have been taken in 1922. And even though the building appears to be in good shape and not delapitated, I have to believe those mills were used for many years after they were built.

    Please don't think I'm trying to shoot your suggestion down, because I'm not. I'm only saying that I believe the uniform speaks for itself. But then again, who knows, maybe some high school kid was wearing his grandad's old uniform. Which brings us full circle again to the photo itself and the type of paper and development used. I'm beginning to think the photo itself is our best clue more than anything else, and something I intend to research further and possibly have examined by a photo expert. As it stands now, I am fairly certain its an albumen photograph ... late 1800s, early 1900s.

    Thanks again. You have been a great help to this discussion.

    Bob










    Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; May 11, 2012 at 08:58 AM.

  14. #133

    Mar 2006
    63
    2 times
    Yes, I see what you're trying to say. I guess it could've been any time after 1894 (it could just be an old Purina sign that was never updated), but it wouldn't be pre-1894 because Purina didn't exist.

    It's even a shot in the dark trying to guess the age of the photo itself with any degree of accuracy. I could shoot a picture with a 1983 Polaroid Land camera in 2012, but one might easily assume it's an old picture because of the film and camera. And back in the time your photo was taken, cameras weren't made to be "disposable", so an old camera would have been functional for many years.

    Even dating the uniform can be tricky, if the player is an amateur. I played high school football in a rural town back in 1996, and was surprised one day when I looked at my shoulder pads and saw that they were made in 1974! So it's not uncommon for high school, college, and amateur athletes to have older equipment, especially in small rural areas.

    But I must admit, this is the most fascinating "What Is It" I've seen on this forum for a while

  15. #134
    us
    Dec 2004
    South Florida
    70's Whites TM Amphibian, HH Pulse, Ace 250
    23,601
    751 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting
    Im I the only person that sees a big M on the very top? Attachment 634590

    ....or is it a window?

  16. #135
    Franklin
    Blow this picture up and see if you can see 1888 and below that No.6Name:  Baseball 1888.jpg
Views: 86
Size:  27.4 KB

    You should be able to see it with a magnifying glass.

  17. #136
    us
    Dec 2004
    South Florida
    70's Whites TM Amphibian, HH Pulse, Ace 250
    23,601
    751 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Franklin View Post
    Blow this picture up and see if you can see 1888 and below that No.6Name:  Baseball 1888.jpg
Views: 86
Size:  27.4 KB

    You should be able to see it with a magnifying glass.
    Since you "have ways to work on photos not only magnification but everything else", I dont know why you cant blow it up yourself

    The way things have been going here lately at TN, I wouldnt be surprised if you find a few members that agree with you. But not I. Sorry.

    I see where Bob sees Purina but I think its stretching it too. ( But not as bad as your visions it would be hard to top that) These are not hand written but most likely professional painted and the photo is just too grainy to come to any definite conclusions. (in my opinion)
    Last edited by Bigcypresshunter; May 11, 2012 at 05:01 PM.

  18. #137
    us
    Dec 2004
    South Florida
    70's Whites TM Amphibian, HH Pulse, Ace 250
    23,601
    751 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting
    I see now where you are seeing 1888 and No. 6 but IMO no way. Its just like seeing letters in the cracking paint or seeing shapes in the clouds..
    Last edited by Bigcypresshunter; May 11, 2012 at 05:06 PM.

  19. #138
    us
    Dec 2004
    South Florida
    70's Whites TM Amphibian, HH Pulse, Ace 250
    23,601
    751 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting
    What about the M on top dead center? Am I the only one seeing it? Of couse it may be a window or dormer.

  20. #139
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    zen ~

    You're right about the earliest possible date IF is says Purina, which we may never know unless it is examined under a microscope that "might" be able to disipher the wording.

    Cy ~

    Since this is partly a guessing game, my guess is that your big "M" is either windows or a door of some type.

    Franklin ~

    I know you're trying to help and mean well, but unfortuniately we're just not seeing what you're seeing.

    Additionally ...

    I received a reply from the Baseball Hall of Fame Research Department regarding an inquiry I sent them a couple of days ago. A gentleman named Tim responded and said it was a really nice old photo but didn't comment otherwise because he had some questions for me that I intend to answer just as soon as I'm through here. However, he did ask if it would be okay for him to share the pictures with some photo experts he works with. Of course I will be sure to tell him that's a-okay with me. In fact, I will encourage it. Tim didn't have much to say otherwise, at least not yet, but, like me, he thinks the final proof of age will come down to the type of photograph - type of paper - and type of developing process the photo was done with. If it is an albumen as I believe it to be, that will most likely date it to the late 1800s or early 1900s. I already posted a good photo link earlier, which can be found a page or two back. It talks about albumens and various other photo types. Check it out. I believe identifying the age of the photo itself is our last hope Obi Wan Kanobi.

    I will let you know what Tim has to say just as soon as I hear back from him.

    Thanks again to everyone.

    Bob
    Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; May 11, 2012 at 05:57 PM.

  21. #140
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    Here's that photo identifying link again for anyone who wants to check it out. Albumens are discussed under number 7)

    Link: How to Date, Identify and Authenticate Photographs / Authenticating Photographs (Cycleback.com)

 

 
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