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  1. #16
    us
    Oct 2006
    Herndon Virginia
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    Quote Originally Posted by woody50 View Post
    Hi Rogerdodger, I have looked around and think you might have hit the determination of this object right on the head.
    Sounds perfect, a butter knife would answer and solve many of the other problems of all the other ideas.

    These 'knifes' have been dated to the 16th century, and that is what I will now look at; try to answer the question, "Did they have butter knifes back then (knifes were the first eating utinsel)?"
    Will ask around....

    Thanks for your input, the first real good idea. Then I think, "Why did I not think about that"!
    Maybe cheese. I don't think butter got really popular until the 19th century. Before that they made cheese because it would keep better.

    Were these found at house sites?

    DCMatt
    While I have aimed in my postings to be irenic and conciliatory, rather than polemic, I have yet endeavored to set forth the
    truth, let it favor or impugn whom it might. Any notice of misrepresentations or mistakes occurring in these prose will be most thankfully received
    by the author.

  2. #17
    us
    Oct 2006
    Herndon Virginia
    Minelab EX II & Musketeer, White's Classic
    4,186
    821 times
    Observation:

    The ones with the female figure (body) on them have the ornamentation going AWAY from the blade. The ones with the face and the creepy "smiley face" have the ornamentation going TOWARDS the blade. Could this indicate that these things are "male" and "female"? I'm not thinking butter knife anymore.

    I'm wondering if these are 15th - 16th century bum wiping tools. We know the Dutch have been famous for their cleanliness for centuries (ie "give your house a Dutch cleaning"). The Japanese used flat sticks for anal cleansing as early as the 7th C.

    It's just a theory. Anybody have any thoughts on these being personal toilet tools? Or am I just full of sh!t.

    DCMatt
    While I have aimed in my postings to be irenic and conciliatory, rather than polemic, I have yet endeavored to set forth the
    truth, let it favor or impugn whom it might. Any notice of misrepresentations or mistakes occurring in these prose will be most thankfully received
    by the author.

  3. #18
    us
    One man gathers what another man spills

    Jul 2011
    Southern Delaware
    Garrett Ace 350
    199
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    I'm agreeing with the cheese knife. Many soft cheeses, such as brie, are spread with these. I have several modern ones that are basically identical.
    Card carrying member of the NSSAR

  4. #19
    TOO BUSY TO DETECT, YOU'RE TOO BUSY!!!

    'No good comes from thinking about how much time we waste detecting, as wasted time is good soul time' - me 25/06/08
    How do you find Gold coins? Reply: 'By finding lots of Silver ones..'
    A real man thinks about detecting every 6 seconds.
    'They look over their shoulder, I look to the ground.' 30/09/12
    We can not understand ourselves unless we understand our HISTORY.
    PMA:Positive MetalDetecting Attitude.

  5. #20
    nl
    Jun 2007
    West Friesland, NL
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRUSADER View Post
    Very surprised at your answer Cru, really not a clue?
    Last edited by woody50; Jun 01, 2012 at 04:45 AM.
    West Friesland, Netherlands, www.wf4.nl

  6. #21
    nl
    Jun 2007
    West Friesland, NL
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCMatt View Post
    Maybe cheese. I don't think butter got really popular until the 19th century. Before that they made cheese because it would keep better.
    Were these found at house sites?
    DCMatt
    Hi DCMatt. I found some things at Wikipedia about butter, I have extracted some of the text:
    Butter was a commodity way back in 1500–1200 BC, then it was called Ghee. But the earliest butter would have been from sheep or goat's milk. In the Mediterranean climate, unclarified butter spoils quickly— unlike cheese, it is not a practical method of preserving the nutrients of milk. The ancient Greeks and Romans seemed to have considered butter a food fit more for the northern barbarians.

    The cooler climates of northern Europe allowed butter to be stored for a longer period before it spoiled. Scandinavia has the oldest tradition in Europe of butter export trade, dating at least to the 12th century.
    After the fall of Rome and through much of the Middle Ages, butter was a common food across most of Europe, but one with a low reputation, and was consumed principally by peasants.

    Butter slowly became more accepted by the upper class, notably when the early 16th century Roman Catholic Church allowed its consumption during Lent.
    Bread and butter became common fare among the middle class, and the English, in particular, gained a reputation for their liberal use of melted butter as a sauce with meat and vegetables.

    So, reading this it is possible. Although some people have called this artifact from the 16th century, it can also best be from the 17th; because at that time Holland was at its peak, a world power, very rich and many things were made from pewter.

    About a house site, yes that is fully possible, and I think true. This photo was taken at the dig, and you can see the house tiles on the ground.
    On the site of 'Old Enkhuizen' (see page 1) Oud Enkhuizen , which is only in Dutch, this item was found in week 6. In that week the archological service was busy with digging out the remains of buildings and houses on a street called the Vijzelstraat.

    A translation of the location:
    "The area around the Vijzelstraat was traditionally a peripheral zone of the city where the poorer people lived. It is no coincidence that in this part of town almost all the buildings from the 16th and 17th centuries have been removed. (badly built buildings)."

    By the way everyone, the one object labeled Govert, that is not the place where it was found, but the finders 'name or alias'. Have asked where it was found but no answer yet.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2011-08-28 Vijzelstraat.jpg 
Views:	63 
Size:	149.7 KB 
ID:	641487  
    West Friesland, Netherlands, www.wf4.nl

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by woody50 View Post
    Very surprized at your answer Cru, really not a clue?
    bookmark
    TOO BUSY TO DETECT, YOU'RE TOO BUSY!!!

    'No good comes from thinking about how much time we waste detecting, as wasted time is good soul time' - me 25/06/08
    How do you find Gold coins? Reply: 'By finding lots of Silver ones..'
    A real man thinks about detecting every 6 seconds.
    'They look over their shoulder, I look to the ground.' 30/09/12
    We can not understand ourselves unless we understand our HISTORY.
    PMA:Positive MetalDetecting Attitude.

  8. #23
    nl
    Jun 2007
    West Friesland, NL
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodgerdodger View Post
    Now I think they are some type of pendants like this.
    File:Pendant Camiros Louvre Bj2169-9.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I am guessing that you are talking only about the figure/or the figure's head in the pendant? (the rest does not look anything like this artifact).
    West Friesland, Netherlands, www.wf4.nl

  9. #24
    nl
    Jun 2007
    West Friesland, NL
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRUSADER View Post
    bookmark
    What an esoteric answer!
    Oh, now I see, the icon was 'don't know'.
    Just did not know what the bookmark was for.
    Last edited by woody50; Jun 01, 2012 at 05:24 AM.
    West Friesland, Netherlands, www.wf4.nl

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by woody50 View Post
    What an esoteric answer!
    Oh, now I see, the icon was 'don't know'.
    Just did not know what the bookmark was for.
    No, I think the flat piece was placed in a closed book & the decor bit stuck out. Its a guess.
    TOO BUSY TO DETECT, YOU'RE TOO BUSY!!!

    'No good comes from thinking about how much time we waste detecting, as wasted time is good soul time' - me 25/06/08
    How do you find Gold coins? Reply: 'By finding lots of Silver ones..'
    A real man thinks about detecting every 6 seconds.
    'They look over their shoulder, I look to the ground.' 30/09/12
    We can not understand ourselves unless we understand our HISTORY.
    PMA:Positive MetalDetecting Attitude.

  11. #26
    us
    Oct 2006
    Herndon Virginia
    Minelab EX II & Musketeer, White's Classic
    4,186
    821 times
    Quote Originally Posted by woody50 View Post
    Hi DCMatt. I found some things at Wikipedia about butter, I have extracted some of the text:
    Butter was a commodity way back in 1500–1200 BC, then it was called Ghee. But the earliest butter would have been from sheep or goat's milk. In the Mediterranean climate, unclarified butter spoils quickly— unlike cheese, it is not a practical method of preserving the nutrients of milk. The ancient Greeks and Romans seemed to have considered butter a food fit more for the northern barbarians.

    The cooler climates of northern Europe allowed butter to be stored for a longer period before it spoiled. Scandinavia has the oldest tradition in Europe of butter export trade, dating at least to the 12th century.
    After the fall of Rome and through much of the Middle Ages, butter was a common food across most of Europe, but one with a low reputation, and was consumed principally by peasants.

    Butter slowly became more accepted by the upper class, notably when the early 16th century Roman Catholic Church allowed its consumption during Lent.
    Bread and butter became common fare among the middle class, and the English, in particular, gained a reputation for their liberal use of melted butter as a sauce with meat and vegetables.

    So, reading this it is possible. Although some people have called this artifact from the 16th century, it can also best be from the 17th; because at that time Holland was at its peak, a world power, very rich and many things were made from pewter.

    About a house site, yes that is fully possible, and I think true. This photo was taken at the dig, and you can see the house tiles on the ground.
    On the site of 'Old Enkhuizen' (see page 1) Oud Enkhuizen , which is only in Dutch, this item was found in week 6. In that week the archological service was busy with digging out the remains of buildings and houses on a street called the Vijzelstraat.

    A translation of the location:
    "The area around the Vijzelstraat was traditionally a peripheral zone of the city where the poorer people lived. It is no coincidence that in this part of town almost all the buildings from the 16th and 17th centuries have been removed. (badly built buildings)."

    By the way everyone, the one object labeled Govert, that is not the place where it was found, but the finders 'name or alias'. Have asked where it was found but no answer yet.
    OK. Point taken. There was butter.

    But I still don't think these items are tableware. Look at other examples of flatware from the period. Few have open-work on the handle and those that do are made from silver.

    I believe these are of a much more personal nature. The clue is in the depictions of female faces and bodies and whatever the other bumps and curves represent.

    Still researching.

    DCMatt
    While I have aimed in my postings to be irenic and conciliatory, rather than polemic, I have yet endeavored to set forth the
    truth, let it favor or impugn whom it might. Any notice of misrepresentations or mistakes occurring in these prose will be most thankfully received
    by the author.

  12. #27
    nl
    Jun 2007
    West Friesland, NL
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCMatt View Post
    OK. Point taken. There was butter.
    But I still don't think these items are tableware. Look at other examples of flatware from the period. Few have open-work on the handle and those that do are made from silver.
    I believe these are of a much more personal nature. The clue is in the depictions of female faces and bodies and whatever the other bumps and curves represent.
    Still researching.
    DCMatt
    Hi DCMatt, well really I don't either. There have been many guesses as to what they could be, but the answer has (I think) not been found. I did like the butter thing, just like some of the others, but still....
    I myself don't put much thought into the 'female faces and bodies', if I count the number of finds that we know about (6x , one not shown) only two have figures shown on them. But keep an open mind.
    Thanks for researching, I am also busy, but still have not (yet) seen anything like it outside of Holland.
    West Friesland, Netherlands, www.wf4.nl

  13. #28
    Charter Member
    us
    Aug 2007
    Mn.
    E-TRAC
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    Palette knife is a blunt tool used for mixing or applying paint.

  14. #29
    us
    One man gathers what another man spills

    Jul 2011
    Southern Delaware
    Garrett Ace 350
    199
    6 times
    I showed the pic to my wife's great-great aunt, who is 90 yrs old. She is quite worldly, traveled everywhere and is highly versed in antiques. She told me it is a pate knife and that her mother had one with a very ornate, sterling handle. I looked them up and some of the older blades are identical in shape to the one pictured.
    Last edited by littlebill31; Jun 07, 2012 at 05:44 AM.
    Card carrying member of the NSSAR

  15. #30
    us
    Oct 2006
    Herndon Virginia
    Minelab EX II & Musketeer, White's Classic
    4,186
    821 times
    Quote Originally Posted by littlebill31 View Post
    I showed the pic to my wife's great-great aunt, who is 90 yrs old. She is quite worldly, traveled everywhere and is highly versed in antiques. She told me it is a pate knife and that her mother had one with a very ornate, sterling handle. I looked them up and some of the older blades are identical in shape to the one pictured.
    It coul be a pate knife. I looked at those as well. The blade has a similar shape but I found few examples with openwork handles and none of them were pewter.

    To my eye this item is distinctly feminine. 5 of the 6 examples have either a female face or a female figure on them. The 6th may have had a female face as well but it is broken at that point.

    I still think this piece is for costmetics, health, or hygiene, but there is little documentation of such activities from back then. At least very little on line...

    DCMatt

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	16thCfemaleknife.jpg 
Views:	53 
Size:	352.3 KB 
ID:	643492
    While I have aimed in my postings to be irenic and conciliatory, rather than polemic, I have yet endeavored to set forth the
    truth, let it favor or impugn whom it might. Any notice of misrepresentations or mistakes occurring in these prose will be most thankfully received
    by the author.

 

 
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