Mar 31, 2007, 03:54 AM
Button help please - military? - found in Germany - MAKING PROGRESS!
Good morning all!
I found this earlier in the week on a US Army post here in Germany. Was 6" down on an athletic field. I tend to think it might NOT have originated on the base but was brought in with the "fill-dirt" when the field was constructed. Dia=18.5mm, Thick=2mm and has a sturdy loop shank on the back. Appears to be copper or copper alloy. I have spent a few hours trying to translate the text to no avail. I tried Italian, German, French, Spanish, Latin, (all the usual suspects!), ad nauseum. Part of it has a Cyrillic look to it and I tried that family as well. Notice what appears to be a Maltese cross at the bottom center between the words. The letters (clockwise from the cross) are ?ETBVSDJ:CRHCRIRCK:PICTETTE:ELEGIO? The question marks are because all the other letters seem to be uppercase and these two look like a lowercase "r" and "n" respectively. Maybe a motto that begins and ends with lowercase letters? A possibility I guess.
As for the "crest", under high magnification (see link below) the letters look like "WW" to me not "VV" because of what appears to be an upward indentation in the bottom of each of the letters, but it could go either way. I am still trying to figure out what the symbols are...I even tried a "negative" image but am still puzzled. Also, notice the nice "hatching" pattern of the background.
Any help will be - as always - appreciated. By the way, I have a bet with myself that PBK will name this button in three minutes or less <HUGE smile>.
Happy Hunting to all!
Last edited by Batch; Jun 05, 2012 at 03:21 AM.
Reason: Deleted invalid link
Mar 31, 2007 03:54 AM
Apr 03, 2007, 10:25 AM
Re: Button help please - military? - found in Germany
I've turned the image upside down and the symbols appear to 2 lions and 2 x 2 castles on shields. The second image is just to illustrate the castle and lion concept and is not meant to suggest Castile.
Apr 03, 2007, 12:19 PM
Re: Button help please - military? - found in Germany
Thank you Mr Morant! I can see the lions now <smile>...it just proves a point about something I teach folks. That is, "it all depends on how you look at it". You have given me a fresh way to research this button...thank you again!
I will also repost the picture in the way you have it positioned and do the same on the hi-res photo located at the link...that may help others who are looking at it as well.
Apr 03, 2007, 05:03 PM
Re: Button help please - military? - found in Germany - MAKING PROGRESS!
If it helps it appears that the lions are also holding swords which is another symbol I've seen used. The "castles" may also be described as "Towers".
May 24, 2012, 03:04 PM
Hallo we have found an exact button in Sweden in our garden when we digging! And we also have found an cannonball. Not in the exact same place in the garden.
We have asked an expert on buttons here in Sweden (Magnus Linsten) and he found you in this page but he didnt know anythis about it.
Have you got any more information since you public this?
Grateful for help!
May 24, 2012, 03:57 PM
Lion rampants and castles. One of the words appears to be elegion. I have an idea but will need a pic of the back please.
Lena could you please post a pic of your find front and back? Thanks.
May 24, 2012, 04:24 PM
I believe it says GRHCRIRGK:PICTETTE:ELEGION+PETBVSDJ I need to see the back. It may be a button made from a coin or a button made to resemble the coin.
GUZIKI METALOWE (484905177) - Archiwum Allegro Attachment 639081
May 24, 2012, 07:04 PM
My link appears to be an auction in Polish. Its under the title "GUZIKI METALOWE" which translates to "metal buttons". The price is 30,00 zł . There is no other information.
May 24, 2012, 07:20 PM
May 24, 2012, 07:29 PM
Found this on what may be a French Metal Detecting Forum. We really need to see the back. http://translate.google.com/translat...26prmd%3Dimvns
Last edited by Bigcypresshunter; May 24, 2012 at 07:43 PM.
May 25, 2012, 05:33 PM
A similar inscription can be found on the 15th century Spanish gold "Dobla" coin. The wording around the perimeter of this coin is the "Banda" type issued by Juan II (1406-1454) with a representation of the sash of an order of chivalry on the shield of the arms of the knightly order "de la Banda." Or, "The Order of the Sash". As I read it off the coin; "Petrus Dei Gracia Rex Castella Elegionis". The wording on the button is different with some linguistic similarities.
I think this is a fashion button using a partially made up indecipherable language. Being a simple, relatively modern depiction of a Spanish "Dobla" or doubloon.
Last edited by Montauk; May 25, 2012 at 07:24 PM.
May 25, 2012, 05:51 PM
Looks like a modern button copying an old coin.
TOO BUSY TO DETECT, YOU'RE TOO BUSY!!!
'No good comes from thinking about how much time we waste detecting, as wasted time is good soul time' - me 25/06/08
How do you find Gold coins? Reply: 'By finding lots of Silver ones..'
A real man thinks about detecting every 6 seconds.
'They look over their shoulder, I look to the ground.' 30/09/12
We can not understand ourselves unless we understand our HISTORY.
May 25, 2012, 08:56 PM
I agree with Montauk and Cru that it appears to be a fashion button but I would like to see the back to date it.. Most likely modern and I think the OP has disappeared.
Last edited by Bigcypresshunter; May 25, 2012 at 09:01 PM.
Jun 05, 2012, 03:16 AM
I just realized this thread has been revived! I have the button here in front of me and will post a picture of the back later today. I have searched on-n-off over the years for more info without luck. I had found the French post BCH refers to but it led me no closer to an ID. Stay tuned for a photo of the back.
Interesting that one has turned up in Sweden as well. Whatever the origin, it is certainly scattered across Europe now!
Jun 05, 2012, 04:00 AM
New/additional photos as requested
Approx 18.5mm diameter, 2.5mm thick. Notice the "taper" back-to-front in the side view. I have had this sitting on my desk for years and still haven't fully cleaned it <smile>. Thank you all for your interest and help!
Jun 05, 2012, 04:53 AM
The "G" in "elegion" seems to have a more rounded bottom half than other "G"'s elsewhere, which makes it a "C" to me - "elecion". Spanish for "elections" is "eleciones"...so it may mean "elect". Possibly from regalia of a town/city official like a mayor or someone who was elected to a post?
Jun 05, 2012, 07:30 AM
PETRUS DEI GRACIA REX CASTELLA ELEGIONIA <- From the Dobla coin
PETBVS DJ GRHCRI RGK PICTETTE ELEGION <- From the button
I don't think it's a coincidence. Montauk is right on - fashion button copy of the Spanish Dobla coin.
Good research from everyone. Green check please.
While I have aimed in my postings to be irenic and conciliatory, rather than polemic, I have yet endeavored to set forth the
truth, let it favor or impugn whom it might. Any notice of misrepresentations or mistakes occurring in these prose will be most thankfully received
by the author.
Jun 05, 2012, 07:39 AM
I posted matching pics but Im sorry hundreds maybe thousands of my images were deleted and permanenrly lost from the TN archives.
Last edited by Bigcypresshunter; Jun 05, 2012 at 07:46 AM.
Jun 08, 2012, 12:31 AM
DCMATT et al., I can see see this as a "green check"able post now. I must say I'm a bit disappointed the button has no greater significance though. I hoped it might be a button only worn by (pick a name), between the years of (pick a date at LEAST 200 years ago), from the area of (pick a now non-existant country), and of which there are only three known examples! <LOL>
Along those lines, based upon construction could/would one of you render a SWAG (scientific wild a** guess) on whether it is early, mid, or late 20th century?
I'll go and find the "How to green check a post" post and do so now. Thanks everyone!
Jun 08, 2012, 12:33 AM
Well that was easy! Green check applied...
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