Calling all experts. Another mystery artillery piece
Welcome guest, is this your first visit?
Member
Discoveries
 
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 17
Like Tree16Likes

Thread: Calling all experts. Another mystery artillery piece

« Prev Thread | Next Thread »
  1. #1
    Charter Member

    Aug 2019
    Formerly Ohio, now south
    358
    471 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Calling all experts. Another mystery artillery piece

    This is from the same collection as the VB grenade. It is a real enigma. You guys solved that one though so lets put the experts to work again.

    The artillery collection was primarily civil war but was inclusive up to about 1910

    Is a cast iron core with a copper jacket wrapped around it. The copper is not real thick but is fairly heavy. About the same guage as a circuit board.

    I read somewhere long ago that the confederates experimented with something like this it didnt have the right width to length ratio. This caused a problem to load and succesfully fire at times as it could slightly turn and jam so the project was abandoned. I recall it did have some field tests at Petersburg. My memory is uncertain but I believe that is correct.

    The key perameter is the width of course as it has to go into the bore. It measures 3 1/8 with the copper jacket slightly less than 3 with just the core. Im not sure that you could ram it down the barrel of most cannons but perhaps you could. If you did the bolt would be somewhat pre rifled before firing. It has indentations in the copper at the base which probably has the dual purpose of clamping it on but to ease the rifling during loading.

    Anyone got any ideas?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	shell 001.JPG 
Views:	105 
Size:	1.58 MB 
ID:	1862597

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	shell 004.JPG 
Views:	105 
Size:	1.32 MB 
ID:	1862598

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	thumbnail_shell 003.jpg 
Views:	100 
Size:	346.1 KB 
ID:	1862599
    ToddsPoint likes this.

  2. #2
    Charter Member

    Aug 2019
    Formerly Ohio, now south
    358
    471 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    When loaded im thinking the copper jacket would go to the back

  3. #3
    us
    Oct 2006
    Herndon Virginia
    Minelab Equinox 600, EX II, & Musketeer, White's Classic
    9,153
    10133 times
    Metal Detecting
    Maybe a tompion or muzzle plug?
    Force_of_Iron likes this.
    "It's a long time between drinks."
    Attributed to John Motley Morehead
    Governor - North Carolina - 1843

  4. #4

    Mar 2014
    495
    761 times
    I must be missing something. Though admittedly I know very little about civil war era artillery. It wouldnít be very stable in the barrel if it had to ride out on that shoulder. Itís not very aerodynamic. Nor is it rifled. Iím not sure what you would gain, aside from it being functionally useable if it was saboted, especially given the increase in complexity. There is no fuse and it appears solid so it doesnít explode. About the only thing that MAY make that useful is if there was a stack of them in a housing that would explode over a target like an old school MIRV. But again I am not sure what you gain with that shape of projectile, even as a prototype.
    Force_of_Iron likes this.
    Using Tapatalk

  5. #5
    Charter Member

    Aug 2019
    Formerly Ohio, now south
    358
    471 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Madmox View Post
    I must be missing something. Though admittedly I know very little about civil war era artillery. It wouldn’t be very stable in the barrel if it had to ride out on that shoulder. It’s not very aerodynamic. Nor is it rifled. I’m not sure what you would gain, aside from it being functionally useable if it was saboted, especially given the increase in complexity. There is no fuse and it appears solid so it doesn’t explode. About the only thing that MAY make that useful is if there was a stack of them in a housing that would explode over a target like an old school MIRV. But again I am not sure what you gain with that shape of projectile, even as a prototype.
    Good observation. That was my thoughts of it initially but when you consider that the civil war was the beginning of rifled field projectiles and what that means. Look at all the crazy varieties they tried it seems that this could be considered for a couple of reasons. I think this is someones stab at a rifled cannonball

    Transport- can be stacked two for the size of one cannonball the same size. Are smaller than equivilent projectiles
    Materials cost - a rifled cannonball using less iron than other projectiles
    Design versitility- some projectiles are flat headed some are rounded. Depending on what you wanted to do this could be used either way.

    Who knows?

    I know in all my years I have seen something similar to this but without its copper sabot but I can't for the life of me remember where.

  6. #6
    Charter Member

    Aug 2019
    Formerly Ohio, now south
    358
    471 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    bump

  7. #7
    us
    Jun 2011
    Oklahoma
    White's XLT
    9,646
    5423 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    just thinking outside the box here..... It doesn't look like any known shell that anyone can identify. It doesn't have any rifling marks. It looks solid, like maybe copper or brass. All the dings on the 'nose' make me want to lean towards it being some sort of anvil used where they didn't want the chance of a spark. Just a thought....
    Force_of_Iron likes this.

  8. #8
    Charter Member

    Aug 2019
    Formerly Ohio, now south
    358
    471 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    That is a guess worthy of anyone calling themself jewelerguy. You are a credit to your trade.

    Its definitely artillery though no doubt about it the question is why,what and or when.

  9. #9
    us
    Jan 2018
    PA
    10
    18 times
    Im here to help with identification of artillery related items
    Hiya everyone, thank you to who called me to see if i knew what this was. I have seen these "projectiles" over the years i have collected, be it on ebay, facebook etc. I typically only see them made of just steel or iron, but are identical to this. Maybe originally those were copper coated too? I have always tried to figure out, whether it ask the seller or whoever owns it, "what is this exactly?" or "what makes you think its a projectile?" and no one is ever able to explain what it is. In my personal opinion, i think these are some sort of weight for a tool or old machine. When i look at these there isn't much that, to me, makes me think they are a projectile. The design would cause too much tumble, which i imagine would not be very aerodynamic nor accurate. It wouldn't fit very well in a barrel unless if it was breech loaded maybe, otherwise it would be a ungainly shape for any muzzle loading i think. Ill try to find the photos of the ones ive seen that are just steel. I could see the argument made for the jacket having shed off while being fired and what I have seen is fired ones, but I need to check if the iron versions ive seen still have that lip that is on this example at the base. If that iron lip is there, then that makes me doubt that it is for rifling. Too rough of a material for a cannon barrel. Thats my two cents on this, ill try to find any photos of the ones ive seen. I have yet to see any conclusive documentation or photographs that point to them being artillery.

    Edit: I decided to look into and found others, and noted them once again being called civil war shells but zero background info. One seller, like one linked below, even claims its 3.5 inch "Blakely" projectile. However, even though im not a civil war era expert, a quick google of blakely gun projectiles quickly debunks this claim. I am pretty certain he was just hoping for some sucker to buy it so he labeled it as such.
    https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...l-5-1891736845
    Last edited by frijoles; Sep 13, 2020 at 12:31 AM.
    ffuries and Force_of_Iron like this.

  10. #10
    us
    Spec-Ops: We Own The Night

    Feb 2009
    Panama City Florida
    1,348
    1946 times
    Military History, Militaria, and Military Surplus Weapons & Anything Military Related
    Quote Originally Posted by frijoles View Post
    Hiya everyone, thank you to who called me to see if i knew what this was. I have seen these "projectiles" over the years i have collected, be it on ebay, facebook etc. I typically only see them made of just steel or iron, but are identical to this. Maybe originally those were copper coated too? I have always tried to figure out, whether it ask the seller or whoever owns it, "what is this exactly?" or "what makes you think its a projectile?" and no one is ever able to explain what it is. In my personal opinion, i think these are some sort of weight for a tool or old machine. When i look at these there isn't much that, to me, makes me think they are a projectile. The design would cause too much tumble, which i imagine would not be very aerodynamic nor accurate. It wouldn't fit very well in a barrel unless if it was breech loaded maybe, otherwise it would be a ungainly shape for any muzzle loading i think. Ill try to find the photos of the ones ive seen that are just steel. I could see the argument made for the jacket having shed off while being fired and what I have seen is fired ones, but I need to check if the iron versions ive seen still have that lip that is on this example at the base. If that iron lip is there, then that makes me doubt that it is for rifling. Too rough of a material for a cannon barrel. Thats my two cents on this, ill try to find any photos of the ones ive seen. I have yet to see any conclusive documentation or photographs that point to them being artillery.

    Edit: I decided to look into and found others, and noted them once again being called civil war shells but zero background info. One seller, like one linked below, even claims its 3.5 inch "Blakely" projectile. However, even though im not a civil war era expert, a quick google of blakely gun projectiles quickly debunks this claim. I am pretty certain he was just hoping for some sucker to buy it so he labeled it as such.
    https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...l-5-1891736845
    I always look forward to your input and your knowledge on munitions, hence the reason I keep PMing you when these come up.
    Force_of_Iron likes this.
    Mike
    TSgt USAF Retired
    Jan 86 - Sept 08
    Aircrew Life Support
    "Your Life Is Our Business"
    (122X0, 1T1X1, 1P0X1)
    NRA Life Member

  11. #11
    Charter Member
    us
    ARC

    Aug 2014
    Bahia Del Espiritu Santo - "Bay of the Holy Spirit”
    JW 8X V.2 - ML X2 - VP 580
    24,848
    68556 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Reminds me of one of these...

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	maxresdefault.jpg 
Views:	71 
Size:	139.5 KB 
ID:	1863256
    Force_of_Iron likes this.
    DETECT WITH RESPECT - Have permission... Fill holes... Dispose of trash. - The Random Chat Thread - http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/ev...en-24-7-a.html

  12. #12
    Charter Member

    Aug 2019
    Formerly Ohio, now south
    358
    471 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Aiiiee, this is getting good...... thanks everyone




    That Blakesly one on worthpoint is missing the lower sabot. It looks to me to be just the head. It has a lower portion that should have had an attached lead sabot. This doesnt have anything to attach to being flat bottomed.

    I believe the copper jacket is the sabot and is complete.

    Thanks again for any assistance. Im stumped
    Last edited by Force_of_Iron; Sep 13, 2020 at 10:10 AM.

  13. #13
    Educator

    Feb 2006
    Occupied CSA (Richmond VA)
    White's 6000, Nautilus DMC-1, Minelab
    5,908
    9713 times
    Relic Hunting
    The reason I've kept silent until now is, I wanted to see what other folks would say about this object.

    I agree with Frijoles, who is spot-on correct in everything he says about it. Absolutely NOT an artillery projectile. This thing, and others quite similar to it, have been showing up on the artillery collectors market for decades... almost always in NON-EXCAVATED condition. Meaning, they aren't being dug by somebody using a metal-detector on a battlefield, they're being found at yard sales and old collections of people who do not know much about actual artillery projectiles. My (deceased) co-author Tom Dickey had a literal pile of these things in his backyard, because people would bring them to him for authentification as a "Confederate Experimental Artillery Shell" and when told it's just junk they'd hand it to Tom to be added to the scrap-pile.

    The thin copper jacket is not a sabot... its purpose is to either prevent water corrosion or sparking. The shallow T-shaped impressions on the side of the copper jacket are to ensure that something is able to firmly grip the object... similar to the shallow slots in a plastic microwave meal foodtray, which enable to tray to be correctly handled by the manufacturer's machinery on the food-filling and packaging conveyor belt.

    These copper-jacketed objects always have multiple small dents on the top, where the object got repeatedly battered by something. See the photos below.

    The photos are mostly grabbed from Ebay. They show some of the variations of these objects, with and without the cup-shaped copper jacket. Note the circular ridges in the iron when the jacket is absent. They are present for a reason related to the object's function. They would serve NO purpose on a projectile. That's just one more reason they are not a projectile, in addition to the reasons given by Frijoles.

    About those concentric circular ridges in the center of the object's rounded side:
    Some of y'all are familiar with what collectors of Historical Buttons call a Nipple-button. Due to the "look" of these domed objects with the concentric ridges, I've nicknamed them a "boob slug."
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	not-a-projectile_boob_copper-jacketed_3views_B&S_JACKMELTON-copyright.jpg 
Views:	5 
Size:	202.4 KB 
ID:	1863466   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	not-a-projectile_boob_diameter3.5inches_sideview_Ebay-Nov2012.jpg 
Views:	4 
Size:	57.2 KB 
ID:	1863467   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	not-a-projectile_boob_diameter3.5inches_sideview_TN_photobyRailroadman_IMAG0182-2.jpg 
Views:	4 
Size:	33.0 KB 
ID:	1863468   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	not-a-projectile_boob_diameter3.5inches_topview_TN_photobyRailroadman_IMAG0181-2.jpg 
Views:	4 
Size:	29.2 KB 
ID:	1863469   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	not-a-projectile_boob_flats_3.5diameter-3.5length_topsideview_FILESIZE-REDUCED_Ebay.jpg 
Views:	4 
Size:	120.7 KB 
ID:	1863470  

    "Let The Christ be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out."

  14. #14
    us
    Spec-Ops: We Own The Night

    Feb 2009
    Panama City Florida
    1,348
    1946 times
    Military History, Militaria, and Military Surplus Weapons & Anything Military Related
    Harry Ridgeway of http://www.relicman.com had this to say......

    "I can end the debate for you.

    This is paper weight, from the days when newspapers were sold outside on street corners or in news stands. Big stack of today’s paper, this set on top to keep the wind from blowing them away. Dates to early to mid 20th century."

    There we have it people.........

    I had sent him a message prior to Frijoles and TheCannonballGuy chiming in with their vast knowledge.
    Last edited by ffuries; Sep 14, 2020 at 11:47 AM.
    Mike
    TSgt USAF Retired
    Jan 86 - Sept 08
    Aircrew Life Support
    "Your Life Is Our Business"
    (122X0, 1T1X1, 1P0X1)
    NRA Life Member

  15. #15
    us
    Spec-Ops: We Own The Night

    Feb 2009
    Panama City Florida
    1,348
    1946 times
    Military History, Militaria, and Military Surplus Weapons & Anything Military Related
    Quote Originally Posted by Force_of_Iron View Post
    This is from the same collection as the VB grenade. It is a real enigma. You guys solved that one though so lets put the experts to work again.

    The artillery collection was primarily civil war but was inclusive up to about 1910

    Is a cast iron core with a copper jacket wrapped around it. The copper is not real thick but is fairly heavy. About the same guage as a circuit board.

    I read somewhere long ago that the confederates experimented with something like this it didnt have the right width to length ratio. This caused a problem to load and succesfully fire at times as it could slightly turn and jam so the project was abandoned. I recall it did have some field tests at Petersburg. My memory is uncertain but I believe that is correct.

    The key perameter is the width of course as it has to go into the bore. It measures 3 1/8 with the copper jacket slightly less than 3 with just the core. Im not sure that you could ram it down the barrel of most cannons but perhaps you could. If you did the bolt would be somewhat pre rifled before firing. It has indentations in the copper at the base which probably has the dual purpose of clamping it on but to ease the rifling during loading.

    Anyone got any ideas?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	shell 001.JPG 
Views:	105 
Size:	1.58 MB 
ID:	1862597

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	shell 004.JPG 
Views:	105 
Size:	1.32 MB 
ID:	1862598

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	thumbnail_shell 003.jpg 
Views:	100 
Size:	346.1 KB 
ID:	1862599
    See above post.......
    Force_of_Iron likes this.
    Mike
    TSgt USAF Retired
    Jan 86 - Sept 08
    Aircrew Life Support
    "Your Life Is Our Business"
    (122X0, 1T1X1, 1P0X1)
    NRA Life Member

 

 
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Home | Forum | Active Topics | What's New

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. [SOLVED] Calling all button experts!
    By Sully_Dawg in forum What Is It?
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Dec 29, 2019, 03:42 PM
  2. CALLING ALL AT PRO EXPERTS
    By Truth in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: Aug 03, 2016, 06:28 AM
  3. Need help!! Calling all stonewear experts!!
    By smf399 in forum What Is It?
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Jan 28, 2014, 08:34 PM
  4. Calling all Experts Again !
    By reed88 in forum Tesoro
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: Dec 11, 2013, 07:54 PM
  5. Calling all experts
    By Johnny Ringo Silver in forum Meteorites
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: Jul 21, 2010, 10:21 AM
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.3.0