Gregorian Chant Scroll? Possibly?
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Thread: Gregorian Chant Scroll? Possibly?

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  1. #1

    Sep 2021
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Gregorian Chant Scroll? Possibly?

    Hello all.
    Found this site while trying research a scroll a friend of mine found while re-modeling an old house.
    My friend is not that tech savvy, so trying to assist with getting more information about the item.

    The find appears to be a scroll containing a Gregorian chant. Was told this by some one that recognized the lettering. Could be wrong here.
    The scroll seems to contain lyrics to a chant, and has a note attached it it with text and and a date.

    Not sure exactly what this is. My friend has no need for it and it trying to find a home for it.
    Ideally we don't just want to pawn it, but get it into the hands of someone who may appreciate it.

    Happy to try and answer more questions. Did read the sticky before posting and certainly not holding back on details, just that there really aren't a lot of additional details.
    The house where this was found has been abandoned for years and no way to track to original owner.

    Any help identifying the artifact, possibly it's context, date, and possibly some guidance on any communities that might appreciate this find would be helpful.
    Happy to answer any questions that I can.

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  2. #2
    Every artifact has a story, if we're willing to listen

    Aug 2017
    Whites V3i & DFX
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    Hi asirixb, welcome to Tnet! Nice find and it is a noble thing you're trying to do - trying to get it to some who'll appreciate it. I'm short on answers to your questions. If I read the top line on the first picture correctly, "Dia 20 de Marco Sabado" translates to "March 20 Saturday" per Google translator (either Portuguese or Spanish to English). Assuming no one else beats me to it I can translate more later today.
    Last edited by invent4hir; Sep 08, 2021 at 03:06 PM.
    Crow, Fat, Red-Coat and 2 others like this.

  3. #3
    Charter Member
    us
    Jul 2019
    Binghamton NY
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    Hi and welcome to the site. If that is written on vellum, it could be very old...does it feel like paper or is it thicker and not that flexible? The note with it might indicate the use of the chant, but I don't think that it dates the item. Can you give us the measurements? Also, what is the general location of the old house? State and or country is fine.
    Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. Matthew 13.

  4. #4

    Dec 2006
    4,169
    2881 times
    welcome to Tnet, i couldnt read the latin, was hoping i would
    find which chant it was. looked here, I'm at a loss with the latin
    the manuscripts are viewable


    Penn in Hand: Selected Manuscripts
    Penn in Hand: Selected Manuscripts

  5. #5
    gb
    Dec 2019
    Surrey
    2,711
    7739 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Welcome to Tnet.

    That’s neat but I have no idea how old it might be.

    It seems to be a chant based at least in part on ‘Psalm 9’

    Reading from the last line of the first page and onto the second page I get (with some spelling variation) the section of the psalm that reads “Ut quid Domine recessisti longe dispicis in oportunitatibus in tribulatione” (loosely: Why, O Lord, hast thou retired afar off? why dost thou slight us in our wants, in the time of trouble?).

    The Latin vulgate for Psalm 9 traditionally begins “Confitebor tibi, Domine" (I will praise/acknowledge thee, Lord). On your manuscript I see “… ibi domine” but the opening word doesn’t seem to be “confitebor”. Can’t make it out, but I guess it’s a variation

  6. #6
    Every artifact has a story, if we're willing to listen

    Aug 2017
    Whites V3i & DFX
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    Jumping about 2/3rd down from the top of the first picture and just above the horizontal line the phrase "anode 1858" appears. translates to "year of 1858".

    *** Just checked, March 20, 1858 was indeed a Saturday.
    Last edited by invent4hir; Sep 08, 2021 at 03:09 PM.

  7. #7
    Charter Member

    Apr 2014
    3,055
    3582 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Top line in first pic translates to the agenda for the 2oth day of March
    That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

    Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.


    Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it.

    Einstein once said: "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

  8. #8
    Every artifact has a story, if we're willing to listen

    Aug 2017
    Whites V3i & DFX
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    Dia 20 de Marco Sabado March 20 Saturday
    Secubren or Se cubren… Are covered…
    Dijola mass de… Said the mass of…
    …Chantre …Precentor

    Precentor defined as:

    - A cleric who directs the choral services of a church or cathedral
    - A leader or director of a church choir or congregation in singing.
    - The leader of the choir in a cathedral; -- called also the chanter or master of the choir.

  9. #9
    gb
    Dec 2019
    Surrey
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    I’m still struggling with the opening word or phrase beginning with the letter ‘S’ to the left of the illuminated letter, but I’m now sure about the rest of it being taken from Psalm 9.

    It reads in full:

    (T)ibi domine derelictus est paup(er), pupillo tu eris adiutor. Ut quid Domine recessisti longe despicis in oportunitatibus in tribulatione.

    The rough translation is “Lord, the poor is left to thee, thou shalt be the helper to the fatherless. Then why, O Lord, hast thou retired afar and left us in our time of need and trouble?”

  10. #10
    Charter Member

    Apr 2014
    3,055
    3582 times
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red-Coat View Post
    I’m still struggling with the opening word or phrase beginning with the letter ‘S’ to the left of the illuminated letter, but I’m now sure about the rest of it being taken from Psalm 9.

    It reads in full:

    (T)ibi domine derelictus est paup(er), pupillo tu eris adiutor. Ut quid Domine recessisti longe despicis in oportunitatibus in tribulatione.

    The rough translation is “Lord, the poor is left to thee, thou shalt be the helper to the fatherless. Then why, O Lord, hast thou retired afar and left us in our time of need and trouble?”
    Very Nice Red-Coat!
    That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

    Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.


    Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it.

    Einstein once said: "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

  11. #11
    Charter Member

    Apr 2014
    3,055
    3582 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Dijo la misa de (ramos?)" means "He said (Palm?) Sunday mass" and then it says: "el 3er chantre" which means "the 3rd (third) singer" and I believe under that is the name of the place where this took place: which seems to read: "(something illegible) Valladolid"
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

    Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.


    Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it.

    Einstein once said: "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

  12. #12
    gb
    Dec 2019
    Surrey
    2,711
    7739 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Mud Hut View Post
    Dijo la misa de (ramos?)" means "He said (Palm?) Sunday mass" and then it says: "el 3er chantre" which means "the 3rd (third) singer" and I believe under that is the name of the place where this took place: which seems to read: "(something illegible) Valladolid"
    There’s also a city in Spain called “Valladolid” (in fact it used to be Spain's capital and was the origin for the naming of the city in Mexico) where the Colegio de San Gregorio (aka the University of Valladolid) was founded in the 13th-century by the Dominican Catholic Bishop Alonso de Burgos. It’s attached to the Convento de San Pablo, originally built as a funeral chapel, and then also serving as a chapel for the college.
    Last edited by Red-Coat; Sep 09, 2021 at 10:12 AM. Reason: addition

  13. #13
    gb
    Dec 2019
    Surrey
    2,711
    7739 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Seemingly, there are “Valladolid” chapels all over the place, stemming from what is known as “The Valladolid debate” held in the Colegio de San Gregorio in the Spanish city of Valladolid between 1550–1551. The theological debate focussed on the morality of the conquest of the Americas by Spain and specifically the rights and treatment of indigenous people by European colonizers. There were opposing views about the way natives were to be integrated into Spanish society and their conversion to Catholicism.

    Centuries of unrest ultimately led to independence for Mexico and then the “Caste War of Yucatan” that rumbled on for years from 1847 to 1901 when the Native Maya people of the Yucatan peninsula rose against its Hispanic population.

    If the note for the mass relates to the city in Yucatan, Mexico that date of 1858 may be significant, especially since the chant is effectively a plea to the Lord in a time of trouble. That's the year when Yucatan was divided into two separate states during the Caste War. Valladolid and the surrounding area had seen heavy fighting and the city itself was abandoned on 14th March 1848 under an onslaught by Maya rebels who sacked the city. It was later recaptured, but I'm not sure of the date.

    Note that the date for the chant manuscript itself may not necessarily be the date for the mass on which the note says it was (last?) used.
    Last edited by Red-Coat; Sep 09, 2021 at 01:35 PM. Reason: addition

  14. #14
    gb
    Feb 2013
    E-trac
    153
    237 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    This has already been pretty well investigated above but just to add a few bits.

    The item is a vellum leaf taken from a larger book of religious music called an antiphonal or antiphonary. If you google antiphonal leaf you’ll get a lot of similar examples.

    Most seem to be Spanish in origin and ones like yours look to be roughly from about 1500-1700.

    A quick look suggests they range in value hugely depending on the condition, quality and seller from as low as about $50 (which seems very cheap for something so beautifully decorated and several hundred years old) to a few $1000.

    Jamie
    Fat, Red-Coat, Crow and 1 others like this.

 

 

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