Ancient Coins Found in WI - Page 2
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  1. #16

    Mar 2008
    91

    Re: Ancient Coins Found in WI

    Bum,
    In general, you are correct. But I take exception in some cases here. To us archaeologists, context is everything. Of course, once we (when I am in the role of MDer) dig something up, context is nearly lost. That said, here is where my earlier conversations with you and others on here hold weight; I think most MDers could use some education on the methods, techniques, and goals of archies. And vice versa. If you do find something of significant importance- in this case precolumbian- making notes of everything about the find is paramount. Knowing the exact location by marking it somehow on the land and GPS, photographs of the landscape around and the location, exact depth and, if possible, the orientation of the artifact (lying on its side, top, flat, etc). If it turns out it is important then all these clues will give proof to the find and allow the archies to return to the exact site (make sure you are included on the survey or subsequent excavation as a learning tool for you) and for them to make an assessment. It is very very unlikely only one artifact would be found at any significant site. In fact, when we locate only one artifact that is significantly different than everything else in the area, it is noted and catalogued as an 'isolated find'. This means its a cool thing, but nothing else can be found out about it without more associated finds in the same local.
    So, if an MDer is able to document the find correctly and contact the right university researcher (someone who's specialty or interest is in the artifacts area), I have no doubt you will be taken seriously.
    -Eric

  2. #17

    Mar 2008
    91

    Re: Ancient Coins Found in WI

    Hey bumpy,
    Stay off your soapbox. You are not impressing anyone here using inflammatory language like 'your kind'. I am talking strictly about changing the apparent status quo, and preach it to both sides. And, just so you understand where I am coming from completely, I do straddle the fence nicely and always have. I do not believe there has to be a wall between MDers and the researchers. But I will tell you that I see both sides for what they are and MDers are certainly not without fault. Maybe instead of soapboxing your way to perpetuate the current divide you should embrace people like me who are about to enter the world of academia as a profession and who propose such crazy ideas like 'working together'...

  3. #18
    us
    Dilitante

    Dec 2010
    N E Wisconsin
    DFX, AT Pro, Vaquero, Cortes
    115

    Re: Ancient Coins Found in WI

    The State Historical Society archy has made his view known clearly and for a long time. We MDers are thieves and trash. He ain't gonna change his opinion and the DNR archy will just go right along with him. To these guys if you don't have a college degree you need to be kept home and out of the fields, by law if possible, by Dept regulation if not.
    Life is too important to be taken seriously

  4. #19

    Mar 2008
    91

    Re: Ancient Coins Found in WI

    This is good. Now that I have fished out two I am starting to have a fair conversation lol

    Look Bubba, if you have been reading my extensive posts on a couple different forums here you would see that I am taking this to a level that you guys cannot. At the risk of sounding, I dunno- righteous, arrogant, (fill in the blank) I am in a very choice and small league. I started in this hobby after discussing the topic with several professors at several renowned institutions; namely, University of Wisconsin and University of Minnesota. It was interesting to me to see the polarizing opinions. I saw the usefulness of accessing the vast knowledge of avocational (recreational) archaeologists, treasure hunters, geographers, and anthropologists. Out in the real world, these people are known as arrowhead collectors, MDers, rock hounds, and reenactors, respectively. I see the REAL potential of sharing knowledge that can really accelerate thinking in the institutional research community and avocational researchers. MDers ARE avocational researchers. You do the same thing Bubba as I do at the university and at home. But I have one distinct and major advantage over you- I have access to all sorts of classified and public (but terribly difficult for you to access) information on historic and prehistoric sites. Wouldn't you like a taste of that information AND the ability to work on either those sites or freedom to wander adjacent to those sites to try and discover new ones??

    This goes way beyond the DNR archy. He really is a small fish. The problem for you is, your pond is excessively small so he thinks he is a big fish. Do you know that I can have access to any of the DNR land no matter what he thinks? All I have to do is apply for a research permit, get a small grant from the university or other institution, get together a team, and go. Now, truth be told, all the items discovered would be, currently, property of the university. However, this is slowly being talked about behind closed doors at our academic conventions and via email. There is a growing number of us - some like me who are working on their various degrees, and some who are already professors- who are working on adapting the time-hardened rules to our advantage. See, as a researcher, I could give a crap about coins, outside of noting what was found for potential dating of a site or a depth of a dig. Even if they are gold, I could care less. As a MDer... wow!

    I can see this is getting more lengthy than I wanted. This is a better conversation over a beer and a group who can both field questions to me, and I to them to find a proper conduit of conversation between the MDers and academics. But do you see where I am going with this? I know there is a lot I have yet to discuss with all of you reading this, as I am sure you have a lot of questions. But I think I can answer most of them to your satisfaction. This is not a flash in the pan, crazy idea thought up yesterday over a bagel. This is real, it is happening, and is a possibility. But a lot of people have to be on board on both sides for it to work- even the test runs.

    More to come, if you have questions, feel free to ask. But the sooner people like Bumpstick get over their crass view of ALL academics, the easier it will be for guys like me to make it work. Or, maybe, they would be more comfortable being left behind.
    -e

  5. #20
    us
    Jun 2008
    Lake Country WI.
    MineLab/ Excalibur&Exterra705/ Gold Bug
    600
    222 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: Ancient Coins Found in WI

    I hope I didn't offend any one on this forum. {Your Kind}
    I use that line because I know it hits home and a good dig.
    To change a perceived image you must show it in your actions.
    Hope to see ya all in the field.

  6. #21
    us
    Dilitante

    Dec 2010
    N E Wisconsin
    DFX, AT Pro, Vaquero, Cortes
    115

    Re: Ancient Coins Found in WI

    fib, I referred to one particular archy. The State Historical Society archy is not the DNR archy but the current DNR archy takes his cues from him. The last couple did not. Understand, I'm not slamming all in the profession and I'd love to work a site with them and cooperate in investigating our history. The problem arises from those that have become political and joined the buracracy.
    Life is too important to be taken seriously

  7. #22

    Mar 2008
    91

    Re: Ancient Coins Found in WI

    Bubba,
    Ok, I am a bit confused. Is it then the DNR or the state Archy that put in the no MD rule in state parks, etc?
    Also, I feel your pain. There are still too many academics who outright reject the idea of a collaboration between avocational and academics on ANY project. But I have seen first hand how that can work and there is (thankfully!) a growing voice in that direction. I am seriously considering not waiting for my professor status and working on a special senior year project that would deal with this head-on. In my personal opinion (dont let the academics see this!), I think that it is both short sighted and stupid not to access the vast resource that is the vocational researcher.

  8. #23
    us
    Dilitante

    Dec 2010
    N E Wisconsin
    DFX, AT Pro, Vaquero, Cortes
    115

    Re: Ancient Coins Found in WI

    fib, that was the State Archy. The new rules banning detecting on all navigable waterways and ajacent land was the DNR archy under advice from the State archy. The State archy has been trying for this rule for years and finally got a DNR archy to go along.
    Life is too important to be taken seriously

  9. #24

    Mar 2008
    91

    Re: Ancient Coins Found in WI

    Bubba,
    Gotcha. I was under the impression from forums on here that it was strictly a DNR rule. If that is an order from the state, it is a different thing altogether. If it is just a DNR rule, it doesnt matter who's advice it was from really. Especially since we are under new leadership. Still, this goes back to what I posted somewhere else (I think) that this "deal" the DNR has up for issue and debate is a bunch more bureaucracy and will ultimately be a waste of time.

    And what I propose here is something completely different anyways since a research permit would trump all rules. Granted, depending on the local the State Archy would have to sign off but I dont see a problem with that since it would be under the direction of a university. It is my belief that this route would begin to erode long-held grudges between the groups and open that door for more free detecting on some state lands.

  10. #25
    us
    Dilitante

    Dec 2010
    N E Wisconsin
    DFX, AT Pro, Vaquero, Cortes
    115

    Re: Ancient Coins Found in WI

    fib, keep in mind these are regulations, not laws per se. The Governor and legislature have no involvement in creating them or in enforcement. They are put into effect by buracrats that are primarily concerned with expanding their authority. Regardless of credentials those 2 are not professionals and are not behaving like professionals. They are political desk monkeys working only to expand their fiefs and root themselves even deeper into the power structure. As for being under University authority, just how do you think professors and Universities are going to react to working with a high school drop out? Not well, I can assure you. It will remain a pretty exclusive club.
    Life is too important to be taken seriously

  11. #26

    Mar 2008
    91

    Re: Ancient Coins Found in WI

    Bubba,
    A few things to address. Yes, they are just rules. And, yes, the folks in charge are not acting professionally. And, yes, professors and universities dont care much about high school dropouts (unless they are minorities! lmao).
    But
    I dont care. And I would be the one leading the research team. And the conference group. And the excavations. I DO care about your demeanor, spirit, and ability to work with others while doing a task effectively. I dont think that will be much of a problem with MDers, but believe me that if anyone wanting to tag along were found out to be a negative person or someone with not much experience, they would be weeded out. I use the term 'negative' here loosely because I dont want to use foul language

    One more thing: My dad was a high school dropout. He did pretty well for his family despite almost losing the house in the 70s recession. He and mom never were rich, still aren't, but taught my brother and I values and how to respect your fellow man. He also taught us how to whoop some a$$ if someone didnt respect us. Believe me, I do rub elbows with the academic elites. Some of whom you may have seen on Nat Geo, History, Discovery, or nightly news outlets. So what. I have also rubbed elbows with coal miners, Blackfeet and Cherokee, hillbillies in the depths of West Virginia and Kentucky, and even a tradesman or two. I dont walk with a chip on my shoulder nor should anyone on this venture. So dont worry about your past. Its all about who you are now, how you treat others, how well you can research and MD, and who you want to be. And, I suppose, where you would like to see this to go in the future.
    Idealistic? Perhaps. But I do have a plan. And I do have my foot in the door. With experience on both sides. And great contacts on the other side. When I get back in the swing this coming school year, I will be pushing this plan until I find a backer. Then two. Then three. Then I will start approaching all of you. The first time might not seem like much. But it will be a monumental bedrock to build upon for the next one. And so on.
    Keep hitting me with questions. Start thinking how it may work from your perspective and what, specifically, you want from such a venture. Think big, think small, then hit me with it. The more I have a clear idea of what MDers realistically want, the easier it will be for me to put it in writing for the academics in language they understand.
    -e

 

 
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