Alignment of Weavers Needle and 4 Peaks and other questions

[Colorado Mine Hunter]

I am relatively new to the forum so please forgive a newbie for asking questions that are probably common knowledge among you 'old timers', the answers to which are probably buried in the depths of the forum archives. I would like to ask them here again however in hopes that I could not only save mucho hours of reading but also have the latest thinking on the subjects.

First question: I have noticed that a number of the many maps to the LDM seem to highlight the line of alignment between Weavers Needle and 4 Peaks. This is true of some of the older maps as well as recent maps (such as the topographical map of Peter's Mesa on page 170 of Corbin's book The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz. I assume this is a line-of-sight, as-the-crow-flies alignment. Can somone enlighten me as to what the claimed significance of this alignment is? Is the location of the LDM supposed to occur somewhere along this line? Or is it of other significance?

Next question: In reference to the same map referenced above, does anyone know who did the mark-up additions on this map? Corbin, Kollenborn, or other? Also, what do the numerous dots represent that are drawn onto the USGS base map? Are they locations where fragments of ore or other artifacts have been found or are they of other significance?

Last question: Is there fairly common agreement on which canyon it is that is described in the old Mexican directions handed down to us as 'Canyon Fresco'? If so, what is the name today?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

Colorado Mine Hunter

 

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[Colorado Mine Hunter]

Thanks Mrs. Oroblanco. I know what you mean and there is soooo much room for interpretation and speculation. Frankly, I am far too unknowledgable yet to form any solid theories of my own. I'm just trying to find out what is pretty well settled and what isn't. I'm sure the higher percentage falls within the latter category. I wonder if anyone out there can point me toward some type of 'summary' of all the commonly accepted 'facts' concerning the LDM (if such even exists outside the private notes of just about all searchers )?

 

[Colorado Mine Hunter]

Thanks again! I will check those references out. Based on the amount of information on this subject, I may get part way through it in the next 20 years

Colorado Mine Hunter

 

[Colorado Mine Hunter]

Thanks djui5. That is just the kind of summary I need. Realizing of course that one cannot count upon all of these being true, as BB points out. At least I can follow up with research on each of them and see if I can sift the nuggets of reality from the dust of legend.

Thanks again.

Colorado Mine Hunter

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,

I would only add a tidbit here that might NOT be helpful; for so many people have assumed that Weaver's Needle is THE landmark mentioned by Jacob Waltz. Waltz never once mentioned Weaver's Needle specifically; what he said was that there was a "...pointed peak" visible from above his mine, not specifically Weaver's Needle. There are several other pointed peaks in the region that Waltz might well have been referring to, such as Miner's Needle or even Picket Post mountain, though that is far from where MOST Dutch-hunters search.

Good luck and good hunting to you, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Dang Randy, there are several clues in that list of 100 that I never heard before. One point I have been trying to raise for some of our fellow Dutch-hunters is this one, quote:

27) Waltzs mine had an opening no bigger than a barrel. (Peck)

So many fellows (and gals) have been hunting for a huge pit, tunnels big enough for pack mules to trek in etc when in fact Waltz's mine was remarkably SMALL, and easily closed up with ironwood logs and concealed. A bit of advice for a newbie, keep that container of "grains of salt" close at hand as soon as your research leads into such tales as Peraltas, Spaniards, massacres, Jesuits, Aztecs etc - a great deal of this material is not well substantiated and some is outright false. It will save you a lot of time and grief if you can avoid chasing down false leads.

Good luck and good hunting, hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Dang Randy, there are several clues in that list of 100 that I never heard before. One point I have been trying to raise for some of our fellow Dutch-hunters is this one, quote:

27) Waltzs mine had an opening no bigger than a barrel. (Peck)

So many fellows (and gals) have been hunting for a huge pit, tunnels big enough for pack mules to trek in etc when in fact Waltz's mine was remarkably SMALL, and easily closed up with ironwood logs and concealed. A bit of advice for a newbie, keep that container of "grains of salt" close at hand as soon as your research leads into such tales as Peraltas, Spaniards, massacres, Jesuits, Aztecs etc - a great deal of this material is not well substantiated and some is outright false. It will save you a lot of time and grief if you can avoid chasing down false leads.

Good luck and good hunting, hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

Hey Oro,

I don't remember (and am too lazy to search), but what do you think about Jesuit mining in Primeria Alta?

Best,

Mike

 

[Colorado Mine Hunter]

That 'clue' about the opening being no bigger than a barrel seems like it might apply to one of the Peraltas' mines, but I know of several sources that say the LDM was a somewhat large, conical excavation with perhaps an adit or shaft at the bottom - though all of it was supposedly covered up and disguised by either Waltz or the Apache. Either way, the durn thing is not going to easy to detect because a relatively small sized boulder could conceal the 'barrel-sized' opening whereas over a hundred years of growth, erosion and soil consolidation would easily make the 'conical' pit impossible to discern from the surface.

Question: Has anything ever been written or heard about where the Peraltas may have put all the tailings from there mining efforts? Although I have read many other instances of spanish and mexican miners using only a small opening at the surface, there are usually considerable tailings from the underground works to dispose of. If Barry Storm was not just making it up, I read that at least one of the Peralta shafts was (from memory, so don't rely on that number) 16 'ladders' deep. Of course, the 'ladders' were notched tree trunks so the depth is open to speculation, but even if they were fairly short, that would equate to quite an excavation and a large volume of loose rock to hide. Have such been found at all and if so, where?

Colorado Mine Hunter

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Alignment of Weavers Needle and 4 Peaks and other questions (LONG reply)

Greetings friends,

Blindbowman wrote:

Oro where did Peck get that clue ?

Hello Blindbowman – and honestly, I do not know where Peck got his information from, however this dovetails well with what others who knew Waltz said, that the mine entrance was quite small, NOT a large tunnel or huge funnel-shaped pit etc.

Gollum (Mike) wrote:

Hey Oro,

I don't remember (and am too lazy to search), but what do you think about Jesuit mining in Primeria Alta?

Best,

Mike

Howdy Mike! Okay, I will take the bait – but my answer might surprise you.

Jesuits mining in Pimeria Alta? I am convinced that the Jesuit missionaries were in fact mining for gold and silver in Pimeria Alta, and making use of some of the local Pima and Opata Indians to do the work, much as they also put them to work raising cattle and sheep, planting crops of grains etc. I do not ascribe ALL of the early mining done in Pimeria Alta to the Jesuits however, as more of the mining was actually done by Spanish who were “in the charge” of local Jesuit priests, which when later researched is mistakenly confabulated into the Jesuits “owning” and operating so many mines, when in fact their own church-owned operations were smaller and only a small fraction of the total mining activity going on. I am also aware that the brotherhood of Jesus today claims they were always in utter poverty, operated and owned NO mines, etc and there is some bit of truth in this, for we only need look at the efforts on the part of Father Kino to protect his Indian charges from the Spanish colonial law of “encomiendo” or forced labor, as well as the abuse of the Indians by Spanish colonists. However a cursory reading through the Jesuit Relacion(s) of the period points up how the many missions were struggling to get their individual missions to be profitable, be it through the fur trade, cotton, grain or mining. The repeated accusations against the Jesuits by Spanish in New Spain led to repeated orders of the king of Spain to get them to stop, and in the end led to their expulsion. The fact that the Pimas rose up in revolt against the Jesuits on more than one occasion is fair proof that the Jesuits were using the Indios for forced labor, so clearly not all of the Padres were so kind-hearted as good father Kino.

Then we come to the question of Jesuits mining in the Superstitions – and I am convinced there is no evidence of any Jesuit presence in that region. I know, there are plenty of folks who believe otherwise, and see Jesuit workings in every little trace of a wheel rut in that desert standing on end, the same folks who seem to utterly ignore ALL of the activity done by ANGLO prospectors who were out searching for the Lost Dutchman AFTER the death of Waltz, and these fellows did a lot of work. Their prospect pits and tunnels are dotted all over the range, and quite frequently someone finds one of these old tunnels or pits and, as Bullwinkle would say, “PRESTO”!!! The person then announces to the public how he or she has "found the Lost Dutchman mine", when in fact all they have found is the old workings of a previous Dutch-hunter, who was there a century before them. So many modern treasure hunters vastly over-estimate the activities and abilities of the early Spanish, and even more vastly UNDER-estimate the activities and abilities of the later Anglo-American prospectors, whose work is far larger and more widespread, by a factor of at least 100 times the activities of the early Spanish.

Blindbowman wrote:

the reason i ask Oro where Peck had made that stated , that was because he is desrcibing the cave enterence not the pit !....and its the size of a 75 gallon barrel standing on end

Well my friend Blindbowman, in Peck’s words, “Waltz’s mine had an opening no bigger than a barrel” – a sentence which clearly describes a MINE opening and specifically that mine attributed to Waltz, not a cave. An old Florence resident said that Waltz had to crawl to get into his mine, and remember Waltz told his friend the boy Reiney, (Petrasch) quote:

“Reiney, you better listen! That mine is hard to find, even when you know where it is!”

We get a LOT of cross-mixing of tales and clues, and in fact I would conclude there are several old mines in the Superstitions – one with a rose quartz-gold ore, one with a black quartz-gold ore and one with a white quartz-gold ore. These DIFFERENT mines are in different locations, and look different. Only the mine of Waltz was specifically and deliberately hidden, and it is also the smallest of the three. The black ore with spots of gold “like stars in the sky” is the mine found and worked by Ely and Bark,while the rose quartz was the mine found and worked by Wagoner, and clues that lead to these mines will only confuse someone searching for the white quartz gold ore of Jacob Waltz. This little fact, that there are DIFFERENT mines in the region, has undoubtedly caused a lot of Dutch-hunters to waste a lot of time and effort. I don't think the mine found by Joe Deering is the Dutchman's mine either, and the fact that his ore samples were of notably lower grade supports that contention.

Colorado Mine Hunter wrote:

Question: Has anything ever been written or heard about where the Peraltas may have put all the tailings from there mining efforts?

Hello again my friend CMH,
The Peralta legends can only be traced back as far as Barry Storm and Walt Bicknell, both of whom were writing about the LDM in the period AFTER the death of Jacob Waltz. A distinguished local club has encouraged the growth and continuance of these Peralta legends, which has not helped matters in getting to the truth. You have hit upon one of the huge problems with the Peralta legends – that such a large mining operation with SO many men, women, cattle, sheep etc MUST have left rather large traces of their presence – and there are no real traces of any such presence. So many bits of evidence in the Superstitions are mis-identified it is a shame, such as a “Spanish camp” in a site where trees were cut for the Silver King mine in the late 1800s, not by any Spanish or Mexican mining group, or the “Spanish hieroglyphics” in the Supers which can be traced to none other than our old friend Barry Storm. Even the “massacre” is more likely to have been an unlucky party of Pima Indians passing through, rather than any party of Mexicans, though some members here will vigorously oppose this viewpoint. If there really WERE a large mining party of Mexicans under the leadership of Peraltas, and they were attacked and massacred by Apaches, the Mexican government would have been notified (Apache attacks were NOT kept secret, even in wartime) – even though the time period when this supposedly happened put it squarely in the Mexican-American war, which only makes the idea of a party of Mexicans crossing the battle lines of two enemy armies all the more un-likely.

CMH also wrote:

even if they were fairly short, that would equate to quite an excavation and a large volume of loose rock to hide. Have such been found at all and if so, where?

You have already hit upon a key problem in the Peralta legends, that such large mining operations by definition leave behind much evidence, which even energetic Apaches will not make so much efforts to conceal.

Blindbowman wrote:

you wont find tailing pies near the dutchman mine its about 12 ft deep and 6 by 6 wide ..it was coverd over but had fallen in but i recoverd it lastyear ....

Well that is quite a remark my friend, you personally covered over the Lost Dutchman mine, last year? Then you must have taken out at least a single sample of the ore, which can then be shown in photos right? How can you be certain that what you found IS the Lost Dutchman mine, and not simply one of the old workings of early Dutch-hunters?

Sorry for the lengthy post, I hope you all have a great day.

Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

there is no missteaking the lost dutchman mine for any other mine...

"NOT a large tunnel or huge funnel-shaped pit etc."

who stated it was ? that is not what i stated ....

 

[gollum]

Re: Alignment of Weavers Needle and 4 Peaks and other questions (LONG reply)

Greetings friends,

Blindbowman wrote:

Oro where did Peck get that clue ?

Gollum (Mike) wrote:

Hey Oro,

I don't remember (and am too lazy to search), but what do you think about Jesuit mining in Primeria Alta?

Best,

Mike

Howdy Mike! Okay, I will take the bait – but my answer might surprise you.

Jesuits mining in Pimeria Alta? I am convinced that the Jesuit missionaries were in fact mining for gold and silver in Pimeria Alta, and making use of some of the local Pima and Opata Indians to do the work, much as they also put them to work raising cattle and sheep, planting crops of grains etc. I do not ascribe ALL of the early mining done in Pimeria Alta to the Jesuits however, as more of the mining was actually done by Spanish who were “in the charge” of local Jesuit priests, which when later researched is mistakenly confabulated into the Jesuits “owning” and operating so many mines, when in fact their own church-owned operations were smaller and only a small fraction of the total mining activity going on. I am also aware that the brotherhood of Jesus today claims they were always in utter poverty, operated and owned NO mines, etc and there is some bit of truth in this, for we only need look at the efforts on the part of Father Kino to protect his Indian charges from the Spanish colonial law of “encomiendo” or forced labor, as well as the abuse of the Indians by Spanish colonists. However a cursory reading through the Jesuit Relacion(s) of the period points up how the many missions were struggling to get their individual missions to be profitable, be it through the fur trade, cotton, grain or mining. The repeated accusations against the Jesuits by Spanish in New Spain led to repeated orders of the king of Spain to get them to stop, and in the end led to their expulsion. The fact that the Pimas rose up in revolt against the Jesuits on more than one occasion is fair proof that the Jesuits were using the Indios for forced labor, so clearly not all of the Padres were so kind-hearted as good father Kino.

Then we come to the question of Jesuits mining in the Superstitions – and I am convinced there is no evidence of any Jesuit presence in that region. I know, there are plenty of folks who believe otherwise, and see Jesuit workings in every little trace of a wheel rut in that desert standing on end, the same folks who seem to utterly ignore ALL of the activity done by ANGLO prospectors who were out searching for the Lost Dutchman AFTER the death of Waltz, and these fellows did a lot of work. Their prospect pits and tunnels are dotted all over the range, and quite frequently someone finds one of these old tunnels or pits and, as Bullwinkle would say, “PRESTO”!!! The person then announces to the public how he or she has "found the Lost Dutchman mine", when in fact all they have found is the old workings of a previous Dutch-hunter, who was there a century before them. So many modern treasure hunters vastly over-estimate the activities and abilities of the early Spanish, and even more vastly UNDER-estimate the activities and abilities of the later Anglo-American prospectors, whose work is far larger and more widespread, by a factor of at least 100 times the activities of the early Spanish.

Sorry for the lengthy post, I hope you all have a great day.

Roy ~ Oroblanco

No bait put out. Just a question. I know Cactus Jumper doesn't believe in it, and there are several others who don't either.

I am mostly in agreement with you. Not being intimately familiar with the Supers, I wouldn't want to say anything for certain, but I don't think the Jesuits were there (possible, but not probable).

On that subject, I became absolutely convinced when teh Archive Secretary at the Jesuit Archives in Rome let a few things slip in our correspondences. Then, without explanation, he stopped responding to all my emails. Funny! Sounds like he got into some trouble.

One of the things that I have been trying to get more info on (for several years now) were two "Silver Trade Bars" that there was only ONE picture of floating around. Funny thing is, they are only 60% Silver. They are also 40% Gold.

I guess this is a pic from The AM&M Museum. No one knew anything about them (that I contacted). I have been trying like mad to verify what they are. NOTHING! Very aggravating, because if they were authentic, it would show the Jesuits (including Father Polzer SJ) to be liars, as they have ALL completely denied the Jesuits EVER having ANY mining operations in Primeria Alta. Note, the date of 1697, and the name KINO on one of the bars, and the name ALTAR on the other. Also note the Jesuit Cross and "V". I just couldn't find out any specifics about them.

THEN........out of the blue, the current owner contacted me, and asked if I knew anything about them. How about that? He asked if I would be interested in trying to broker their sale. I said "Of course." So, he sent me a lot of the information about their history, and how his family got them. I will start a thread about them, because I think they are historically valuable. Talk about coincidences!

best,

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

The missions supplied the mines with produce and meat. They were paid with silver bars.
That was one of their sources of income. You may need more than a few bars to prove your case.

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

now you gone to far . i dont beleive for one secound there is bars in them there woods .... lol

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi Mike!

I thought you were baiting me, since I had expressed such doubts about Jesuits in the Superstitions, that probably I don't think any Jesuit mining took place. The Jesuits are secretive even today, but even if a person lies about one thing does not mean they lie about everything. It is in their interests not to admit to having owned and operated mines in Mexico when it was illegal for them to have done so, but on many other subjects I have found the Jesuits to be quite reliable sources, historically anyway.

Those silver bars with the name "Kino" on them are quite a mystery, and even though they do have the name "Kino" on them, does not prove that father Kino made or owned them. The fact they are so alloyed with gold is a good clue to their origins, look at the gold and silver produced in the Oroblanco district and you will see what I am talking about. (It is naturally alloyed heavily with silver there, which primitive miners would not be bothered to try to refine, just cast into bars of dore.)

Good luck and good hunting, hope you find the treasures that you seek.

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike and Roy,

There are way too many sources to quote here, so I will use only one.

"In addition to surplus grains, the missions sold various kinds of livestock each year. Horses, mules, sheep, yearlings, and beef cattle raised in the pueblos supplied the presidios and reales de minas with meat, pack animals, oxen and mounts. Missionaries received payment in géneros -cloth, chocolate, sugar, tobacco, wax, soap, wine, and the like -- or in refined, but unminted marcos of silver." (Emphasis in bold by Joe)

"Wandering Peoples: Colonialism, Ethnic Spaces, and Ecological Frontiers in Northwestern Mexico, 1700-1850" by, Cynthia Radding
Pages 79-80

Should you read this book, you will learn a great deal about Mission income. I have two fine first editions.....be happy to sell one.

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Thanks for the info. I have just shot Prof. Radding an email at the Univ. of NM. Also, these ingots are not Silver. They are 60% Silver and 40% Gold. The owner has sent me a detailed history of the ingots. He is an Engineer at Boeing, and as of yet, I have no reason to doubt anything he has told me. And besides, if they were received as payment, why would they have been cast with both the Mission info and KINO? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Roy,

AHHHHHH.....if they weren't owned by KINO, then why would his name be cast into it? As an homage? Wait till you read the full new thread. Very interesting history (and Kopman was not the name of the previous owner like it says on the Museum note).

Best,

Mike

I almost forgot. That pic of them is horrible. They do look like silver there. They are actually much golder in color.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"if they weren't owned by KINO, then why would his name be cast into it?"

Having read extensively on the man's history, I can assure you that the things he "owned" could be carried on the back of his horse......along with Father Kino, of course. That would include the flagellum he use for himself.....on a regular basis.

You guys need to find a new whipping boy, pardon the pun, for your Jesuit fantasies. Kino took his vow of poverty seriously, right up to the moment of his death.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Well B,

Seems like you and someone else missed the words immediately after

if they weren't owned by KINO, then why would his name be cast into it?"

As an homage?

I also thought this was a very good possibility (an homage). But my original point was not that. It was in response to Joe and his quote about how sometimes Jesuits took Silver Marcoses as payment for goods and services. I noted that these contained both gold and silver, and what would be the Jesuits purpose in RESMELTING and RECASTING the bars with their information. Made no sense.

Mike

 

[Springfield]

It's a slippery slope, these "historical" castings. They're still being made today. Randy Lewis was selling gold finger bars and silver coins that he made as advertised replicas a year or two ago up in Utah. They had all sorts of "authentic Spanish mint marks", images, etc. that looked super. I think the alloy was even "authentic". Doc Noss altered some of his Victorio Peak gold bars by gouging "LaRue" into them with a branding iron - still has people fooled when they look at the photos. All it takes is a supply of precious metals and a knowledge of low-tech metallurgy. Caveat emptor.

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

Fakes?

Who'da thunk it?

Joe