✅ SOLVED Another Gun ID Needed

[Bigcypresshunter]

I have what looks like an authentic antique 12 gauge muzzleloading shotgun with a heavy duty sidelock and musket cap nipple. It says 1850 OBERNDORF on the barrel and something else on the sidelock. This shotgun is heavy duty and would hold up well if abused. It has a short smoothbore barrel and a horse ring attachment. This gun looks as if it did its killing at short range.

It may be a Mauser but I cant find it in search and I cant read the sidelock. Looks like 3 words. The second word starts with a W. The third word looks like RABBIT but first letter looks more like an F like maybe FABRIK??



Added: It may be Confederate Cavalry Carbine!

 

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[Tnmountains]

Yes I noticed that it was never blued so thats why I thought apple cider vinegar might work instead of scrubbing with wire brush or steel wool... When I search these words konig wurtt fabrik I found this photo but the link no longer exists. The top one looks like my musket but mine is the carbine version. BTW the musket came from New York 50 years ago if that means anything. Thanks for helping ffluries.

View attachment 1728403

I have been having amazing results with the Evapo Rust on similar items. Cleans like new and way better than the ACV. I would get it off the stock use the Evapo Rust then use blaster and soak the parts to pull off and clean. Probably make it functional .

 

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[Retired Sarge]

Thats it alright! First photo to match up. I wish we had a link. Its rumored to be Confederate but you know how that goes. Everything is claimed Confederate until proven otherwise lol. Help IDing Calvary Carbine - Surplus Rifle Forum - www.surplusrifleforum.com

View attachment 1728537 View attachment 1728539

Do you one better, how's this, and lots of pictures of one like yours............

https://www.ima-usa.com/products/or...ddle-ring-cavalry-carbine?variant=26168713477

Description from the site:

"Original Item: Only One Available. This is a fascinating little saddle ring carbine, just 34 inches in overall length with a 19-inch barrel.

Features include iron trigger guard, barrel band, side plate assembly with saddle bar and ring. The iron nose cap is fitted with a brass blade sight and the butt plate is also of comprised of substantial brass.

There are the remains of OBENDORF on the top of the barrel and the lock is faintly marked "KONG..........FABRIK..." The hammer is of classic Germanic shape and there is a chance that in fact this Carbine was once flintlock and was converted, but that is just speculation.

A most attractive saddle ring cavalry carbine very possibly imported before the U.S. Civil War giving it loads of research potential."

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Do you one better, how's this, and lots of pictures of one like yours............

https://www.ima-usa.com/products/or...ddle-ring-cavalry-carbine?variant=26168713477

Description from the site:

"Original Item: Only One Available. This is a fascinating little saddle ring carbine, just 34 inches in overall length with a 19-inch barrel.

Features include iron trigger guard, barrel band, side plate assembly with saddle bar and ring. The iron nose cap is fitted with a brass blade sight and the butt plate is also of comprised of substantial brass.

There are the remains of OBENDORF on the top of the barrel and the lock is faintly marked "KONG..........FABRIK..." The hammer is of classic Germanic shape and there is a chance that in fact this Carbine was once flintlock and was converted, but that is just speculation.

A most attractive saddle ring cavalry carbine very possibly imported before the U.S. Civil War giving it loads of research potential."

Thats it allright with lots of pictures. Thanks. And my wood is in better shape. So we know this is not just a one of a kind mixed parts conversion and thats important.. Everything seems identical but my butt plate is steel and I have no ramrod fitting and it looks as if I never did. Otherwise thats a perfect match 34" total with 19" barrel, same hammer, brass piece on sight etc. So I know some backwoods rabbit hunter didnt saw off the barrel and mix match this gun in his barn but who converted it? The Germans or the Confederates? Its not Prussian.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It doesnt say what it sold for but if someone paid the $895 asking price for a broken stock Prussian conversion, they must know something that we dont!

 

[Retired Sarge]

It doesnt say what it sold for but if someone paid the $895 asking price for a broken stock Prussian conversion, they must know something that we dont!

It's still for sale, but IMA does move a lot of old guns. So someone will snatch it up sooner or later.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Not sold? May be overpriced. Why does it say Sold Out?

 

[Retired Sarge]

Not sold? May be overpriced. Why does it say Sold Out?
View attachment 1728720

Well I'll be damned, I stand corrected, it is sold, normally they take the price down after stuff sells, and keep the pics for historical reasons. Well I guess you've got a good ideal what yours is worth

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Well I'll be damned, I stand corrected, it is sold, normally they take the price down after stuff sells, and keep the pics for historical reasons. Well I guess you've got a good ideal what yours is worth

It doesnt say what it sold for just the asking price.. Do they take offers or is that price non negotiable?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I know its not Prussian but thats why I say if someone paid that price for a Prussian smoothbore conversion with a broken stock, they must know something that we dont know and it must be good.

 

[Retired Sarge]

It doesnt say what it sold for just the asking price.. Do they take offers or is that price non negotiable?

As far as I know the price listed is the price you pay through IMA. Another possibility is, it has been pulled for additional research. Could contact them and ask. I know another gun dealer, Libertytreecollectors, keeps their guns listed after they sell for informative purposes.

I'll just say this, right now between two guns you are sitting on a pretty penny it seems.

I love old guns like these, as they ooze history and the hunt for their story is always fun. If only they could talk, the stories they could tell. Keep us posted on these beauties, I look forward to seeing them all cleaned up, you lucky dog.......

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Removed the barrel for cleaning. It didn't rust next to the wood. Every bolt and screw is numbered.
More markings on the bottom side of the barrel.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Most if not all early muskets were it the white, including the British Brown Bess. Keeping these weapons clear of rust helped occupy endless hours of a soldiers time in barracks. The Red Coats used powdered brick dust to polish the brightwork, and redden their coats. I don't recommend this unless you have access to 18th century bricks, and know for a fact that they are so . Later bricks, not sure the cutoff date, had other materials in them that will damage the metal.

I have it dissassembled including the nipple and Im going to purchase the Evaporust unless anybody has any objections. There is no bluing, browning or any type of patina to damage. It actually looks as if it was polished underneath (see pics above).. I think using a chemical will avoid any more polishing marks and although applecider vinegar is milder, it takes days.

 

[releventchair]

Math and numbers is something that is lost on me.

Me too. A dime just fits in the muzzle we're around 20 gauge... If I recall correctly....
.62. One oz. ball in my trade gun... Patch around .012-.015.

 

[releventchair]

Sorry, it is most manifestly not Prussian, since it bears Württemberg factory markings.

If anything it was shot at prussians in 1866. Together with the Vereinsgewehre..... Regrettably it did not stop the prussians.

I am no gun expert, yet I think it was extensively modified. The area around the nipple seems to be sawn out afterwards.


Greets

Namxat

It is kind of unique where the drum fits the lockplate. (?)
Would keep it from unthreading. And allow easier positioning (clocking) when installing , so not to strip it when predrilled for the nipple and trying to get it tightened just right.. Or have to back it up a little if turned too far, making it loose. Just need more attention to specs before assembly.
Hammer could be heated and bent to fit nipple. With left to right easier than forward/rearward very far.
That don't help much if nipple is too far forward ,or rearward.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Check out the rust flaking off the nipple soaking in apple cider vinegar.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Me too. A dime just fits in the muzzle we're around 20 gauge... If I recall correctly....
.62. One oz. ball in my trade gun... Patch around .012-.015.

I measure inside diameter of the barrel as approx 11/16" in fractions which converted to decimals is 0.6875. Thus its a .69 caliber.
https://mdmetric.com/tech/cvtchtfdm.htm

When I find my micrometer, I can measure it more accurately than with the ruler I used but I think Im close enough for now. A .69 caliber is a cannon!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Its KOENIG:

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Correct me if Im wrong but this musket was made in the Wurttemburg, Germany state factory in Oberndorf.. The first weapons were variants of the flintlock muskets Modèle 1777, caliber .69. The barrel is dated 1850.

In April 1856, Baden, Hesse and Württemberg were to adopt a new rifle using percussion locks and Minié balls for their troops of the 8th Bundesarmee corps. This led to the Vereinsgewehr 1857 (union rifle, M/1857) in cal. .547". The rifle for the line infantry was, with minor modifications in the sights, adopted by all three states; pistols and carbines for the cavalry and sharpshooter rifles for the Jäger were, however, developed by each state on its own.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Königlich_Württembergische_Gewehrfabrik

Württemberg took up arms on behalf of Austria in the Austro-Prussian War of June to July 1866, but three weeks after the Battle of Königgrätz (3 July 1866), the pro-Austrian troops suffered a comprehensive defeat at the Battle of Tauberbischofsheim. The Prussians occupied northern Württemberg and negotiated a peace in August 1866. Württemberg paid an indemnity of 8,000,000 gulden and concluded a secret offensive and defensive treaty with its conqueror
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Württemberg

My question is: Did the German cavalry fight the Prussians in 1866 with some outdated smoothbore carbine muskets? Or was it more likely that the antiquated firearms were sold to the Confederates by 1866, like the Prussians did? Can you answer that namxat? It appears the .69 caliber musket was no longer being used by 1856-57.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Prussian_War



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalry

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbine

 

[axelrich]

If you ask me the gun actually in a great shape..

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

In case anyone reads this, bad idea with the vinegar. It turned the nipple black. Im going to find some evaporust