Are there 2 LDMs ?

[Idahodutch]

Howdy Idahodutch,

My most sincere condolences to you, and your family. I too lost my Sister to cancer just seven months ago, it's the hardest part of life.
Glad to hear that you are starting to feel stronger, and that you may be able to continue your search. I myself would settle for just one LDM, or any other mine for that matter. As to what would I do, I would probably go crazy.
I know nothing about mining, so I would have to hire a mining engineer to call the shots, unless my partner has a better plan. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it. It is a mesothermal mine, meaning they go more than two miles deep, and under ten. It would be in operation for a long time.
Homar

Good morning Homar,
Thanks for the response 👍. I can only hope that my sister is in a good place, but her beliefs were perhaps not so compatible with the narrow gate 😢.
She believed in experimental medicine, and spent 5 years hoping for something to come through for her. I don’t wish that for anybody. 🙁

As far as Waltz’ mine(s) and if they are there, and so, what if they are?
Crazy is a broad term, and covers a lot of mental stress. 🥹

I’m not a miner either. Besides, if this is the spot, it’s in a wilderness area.
We’re allowed to get samples ….. everybody is allowed to get samples.
Maybe that’s the answer; and anyone interested in seeing Waltz’ lost mines, and getting samples, would only need to make the effort to go there, and get it.

If this is the spot, I plan to find out 100%.
I’m a clues guy, and I can say this spot fits like none other I’ve seen.
Everybody can believe or not believe, that’s up to each of us.

Am I looking for fame and fortune ….. not really. I’ve been working on a puzzle and the pieces started to fit, without force fitting pieces. If I can get some nice souvenirs I will be happy. I am not rich, but I also am not destitute. Would I like some samples to pay off our home, yes I would, but I need to find a way to get to the ore first. Then have it tested.

I don’t think posting pictures of open mines, and beautiful gold ore, would be the best way to share this find with all the Dutch hunters out there.

Stuff to think about 😏

 

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[axer]

Idahodutch, I have a spot that fits all the clues known to me after searching and researching for 23 years. I have hiked out to verify clues many times with very few successful clue matches. I recently ran out of potential spots, so I pulled out all my notes and reread them while cross checking them with historical facts and created a file of "trusted clues" which pointed me to my new location. I'll be hiking out when the weather cools to check this out and have been thinking what to photograph and share, rock man, cross cut in ravine, WN, 2 room cave, if lucky frying pan, etc..... By the way, since this topic is about the number of LDM mines, my 2 cents worth is there is 1 inclined shaft at the quartz mine and 1 pit mine within a mile. I would call that 2 LDM mines as I believe Jacob Waltz mined both at least once. Also, I believe there was an outcrop that Waltz dug out and covered, so maybe saying 3 mines would also be true, but there is mainly 1 quartz mine and 1 placer mine that came from the quartz mine vein after it eroded and was covered up.

 

[Idahodutch]

Idahodutch, I have a spot that fits all the clues known to me after searching and researching for 23 years. I have hiked out to verify clues many times with very few successful clue matches. I recently ran out of potential spots, so I pulled out all my notes and reread them while cross checking them with historical facts and created a file of "trusted clues" which pointed me to my new location. I'll be hiking out when the weather cools to check this out and have been thinking what to photograph and share, rock man, cross cut in ravine, WN, 2 room cave, if lucky frying pan, etc..... By the way, since this topic is about the number of LDM mines, my 2 cents worth is there is 1 inclined shaft at the quartz mine and 1 pit mine within a mile. I would call that 2 LDM mines as I believe Jacob Waltz mined both at least once. Also, I believe there was an outcrop that Waltz dug out and covered, so maybe saying 3 mines would also be true, but there is mainly 1 quartz mine and 1 placer mine that came from the quartz mine vein after it eroded and was covered up.

Good afternoon Axer,
it sounds like you on the right track. When you talk of clues … the one offs are not very good for following…. But there are a couple sets of directions that I have found are good enough to get you to the area.

Many have trashed these directions as complete bs, but I have found that together, they work 👏🙌.

One is the monumented trail left by the Peralta and later given to Waltz.
The other is from the Holmes Manuscript, given out on his deathbed to Dick Holmes, and Gideon Roberts.

In my opinion, neither of these without the other, will do what is needed.
That both are needed to fill gaps, at the actual site.
The site is too big and rough and the mines are concealed.

 

[gollum]

Hello gollum,
I’m not sure who you are addressing with your post?
It does sound like you have formed some conclusions about certain things. 🤓👍
I hope the best for you, and thanks for sharing your position about some things.

Hey IdahoDutch,

Not directed at anybody in particular. Just go back and look at the posts. You can do it in ANY LDM, Victorio Peak, or almost any other lost treasure/mine story. People latch on to crap clues and think they're gospel. Then, they argue with people based on bad facts (or shakey at the very least). I don't think ANYBODY that hasn't gone ACTUALLY looking for the LDM should EVER say anything with absolutism, because they have no way of knowing......but they do anyway. The only way anybody should speak absolutely is regarding KNOWN FACTS. Everything else is a theory. Mine, yours, everybody's. Sorry if it seemed pointed, but its just something that irks me sometimes. A lot of people speak absolutely about a subject that they only know about through media that carries a lot of BS.

Take Care - Mike

 

[Idahodutch]

Hey IdahoDutch,

Not directed at anybody in particular. Just go back and look at the posts. You can do it in ANY LDM, Victorio Peak, or almost any other lost treasure/mine story. People latch on to crap clues and think they're gospel. Then, they argue with people based on bad facts (or shakey at the very least). I don't think ANYBODY that hasn't gone ACTUALLY looking for the LDM should EVER say anything with absolutism, because they have no way of knowing......but they do anyway. The only way anybody should speak absolutely is regarding KNOWN FACTS. Everything else is a theory. Mine, yours, everybody's. Sorry if it seemed pointed, but its just something that irks me sometimes. A lot of people speak absolutely about a subject that they only know about through media that carries a lot of BS.

Take Care - Mike

Gollum,
I appreciate your getting back to me on this. It so easy to take things in a way that wasn’t intended…. 🥹

I feel your pain with some of the posters that have come through 😩
Clues seem to be different selections for every searcher. Many Dutch hunters think they know which ones to use, and which are suspect at best.
I was fairly isolated from the Dutch hunting community for most of my search … I had some misconceptions about things by the time I started posting here on T-net a few years back. The clues that were hot and heavy in the late 60’s to about mid 70’s, were the ones I was most exposed to.
Over the past decades, it seems that there have been some shifts in how the Dutch hunting community is viewing a lot of the old clues. Some less, some more.

I may seem rigid to some, because of how I view the clues … 🤷🏼‍♂️

You and many others have a bad taste left from Bicknell, and I’m not sure what that’s actually about.??
Yes the various articles are inconsistent to a degree, but I see it a more of a morph in Bick’s views coming through.

It seems like at first, Bick thought he had it all figured out (just like us 🤪) then realized he didn’t and had to stop and look at everything again. To be honest, I enjoyed Bick’s articles, or at least a couple of them 🤓

Understanding where each of us is coming from, may be helpful in understanding what each other is trying to say 🤷🏼‍♂️😁

Thanks again for responding,
Idahodutch

 

[markmar]

Idaho, after you will give up in your location, tell me to show some interesting spots near by. Within about half mile from your location. Are not Waltz' mines, but maybe would be enough for the reason you are going there.

 

[Idahodutch]

Markmar,
Thanks, but there is not a reason to give up 🤓
Maybe after I verify the 2nd mine, the one up above, I might then go see if your spot contains any gold at all. I’m sure you’ve been curious 👍
As far as the 2nd mine up above, You know, the one that possibly is the same gold deposit as Doc Thorne’s gold. The same that waltz walked away from, to pursue the deposit that we did locate.

Yeah, I think that there is a good chance that that upper mine, is both the original LDM, as well as Doc Thorns deposit.

I don’t know if that upper mine was covered over, or is just concealed by the terrain.
If it is actually open, then perhaps there are still 6 sets of bones down inside of it. If there is, and if there is one set of bones in the outcrop mine below ….. well then all those that turned their nose at the 1895 Bicknell article …. We’ll, I guess they will have egg on their face. 🤷🏼‍♂️

For those of you who are not aware, the directions from that Bicknell article lead to the mouth of needle canyon. According to the article, the mine is located before needle canyon opens up…. which also means before passing the little red hills.

The other set of directions from Holmes Manuscript, also seem very accurate. It takes you right to the Rock Man, then through the saddle and up to the view spot of 4-peaks, where can only see one peak.
Below is the hidden camp, and directly across of that is the outcrop mine …. The incline shaft is way up high above … just below the top.

There is one other clue …. Nobody seems to know where and when it surfaced, but 100% accurate so far. It’s called the Waltz Map.
It shows the 2 smaller cache spots, the location of the outcrop mine, directly across from the hidden camp, and the upper original mine(incline shaft mine).
Only the inclined shaft above has not been identified yet.

I will tell you markmar, after we scan the upper part of the ravine, the next are on agenda to scan, is over by marsh valley way …. Kesserlings finds. 😁👍
Then if I still have time and energy, I would like to scan it and see if anything shows up in you area of interest. The ruins of the bell tower or whatever that is, would be good to see it, get a picture of whatever it is.

I think you have found things, but even still, you have not seemed to verify any of it. You have brow beat many Dutch hunters on this site, with your unproven theories, and seem to enjoy it.

Why you seem to like to provoke serious searchers, is unknown to me, but sure comes across as a character flaw. … just an fyi.

So far, the closest gold deposit to that ravine, that we found, was about 3/4 mile as the crow flies…. So no thanks to you offer.

Idahodutch

 

[markmar]

It's your choice so i can't do more than this. Was not my intent to provoke you. I'm sorry if you felt offended.
I wish you the best and good luck.

 

[Idahodutch]

It's your choice so i can't do more than this. Was not my intent to provoke you. I'm sorry if you felt offended.
I wish you the best and good luck.

Markmar,
My first instinct is to give you benefit of the doubt, but I have felt like Charlie Brown, and you are holding the football …. Smiling 😁

That’s an American analogy for giving trust, even though experience says otherwise.

Maybe I just need some time 🥴🤷🏼‍♂️
Idahodutch

 

[axer]

Just had to post this photo of a 1876 cool touch handled frying pan I imagine was like the one left close to the LDM when Jacob Waltz partner was killed. No matter how many mines there are, I believe one of the portals will still have a pan like this with the handle broke off and 4 rocks inside nearby.

 

[Idahodutch]

Good morning all,
It’s almost time to head out to Arizona, and the Superstition Mountains.

Tons of rain lately, so should be plenty of water. Don’t worry, we are still taking water in too 🤓

Our gear and water is being packed in, so the hike in should be a nice hike.

Day one is hiking in and setting up camp.
Day 2 is planned to head over to the ravine, and assess things.

Next, we will be scanning again.
A scan of the cache spot, to make sure the scanner is reading properly, then lower the depth settings and map out the deposit below the cache ….. and see if in fact the vein actually runs 400’ up the ravine.
Maybe it does, and maybe it doesn’t 🤷🏼‍♂️.

Next upon reaching the area where the old Peralta mine is supposed to be, we will set the depth to about 1 meter to start …. Maybe find some shards of ore possibly left behind during the cleanup.
Then the scan depth will go to maximum (40 meters deep) and we’ll see what we can locate. 👍

My expectations are optimistic.
Collecting samples (provided they actually exist) should not take more than the next day. Then there are a couple other areas we want to scan.

We want to see if there is anything that can be read, to indicate or validate kesserling’s searching of areas in marsh valley. Then also an old mine spot, that my buddy found back in 2009.

If the trip is successful, I have said that I don’t think posting photos of gold ore, or open mines onto a public Internet forum is good idea, if the expectation is to be that we Dutch hunters share in the find via samples, since nobody can claim it.

So silence was to be the signal ….
Maybe, since we will be moving some loose rocks from on top of the cache, it seems like we would be where old crisscross logs (or remnants) would then be.

Maybe a photograph of some crisscross log remnants, below the pile of rocks, would be sufficient ?

Maybe a photo of any shards of broken quarts located in the vicinity of upper mine ?

While up near the top, it would be good to get a photograph of the one visible peak at the 4-peaks view spot.

Maybe the blown out hidden camp ?
Or - should any success just stay silent?
What would convince you all to go for it, but not every Tom, Dick, or Harry?

The objective would be to share the find with Dutch hunters. 🤷🏼‍♂️ For those that been out there looking.

Productive feedback is welcome, even desired.
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[SPARTANOC]

Good morning all,
It’s almost time to head out to Arizona, and the Superstition Mountains.

Tons of rain lately, so should be plenty of water. Don’t worry, we are still taking water in too 🤓

Our gear and water is being packed in, so the hike in should be a nice hike.

Day one is hiking in and setting up camp.
Day 2 is planned to head over to the ravine, and assess things.

Next, we will be scanning again.
A scan of the cache spot, to make sure the scanner is reading properly, then lower the depth settings and map out the deposit below the cache ….. and see if in fact the vein actually runs 400’ up the ravine.
Maybe it does, and maybe it doesn’t 🤷🏼‍♂️.

Next upon reaching the area where the old Peralta mine is supposed to be, we will set the depth to about 1 meter to start …. Maybe find some shards of ore possibly left behind during the cleanup.
Then the scan depth will go to maximum (40 meters deep) and we’ll see what we can locate. 👍

My expectations are optimistic.
Collecting samples (provided they actually exist) should not take more than the next day. Then there are a couple other areas we want to scan.

We want to see if there is anything that can be read, to indicate or validate kesserling’s searching of areas in marsh valley. Then also an old mine spot, that my buddy found back in 2009.

If the trip is successful, I have said that I don’t think posting photos of gold ore, or open mines onto a public Internet forum is good idea, if the expectation is to be that we Dutch hunters share in the find via samples, since nobody can claim it.

So silence was to be the signal ….
Maybe, since we will be moving some loose rocks from on top of the cache, it seems like we would be where old crisscross logs (or remnants) would then be.

Maybe a photograph of some crisscross log remnants, below the pile of rocks, would be sufficient ?

Maybe a photo of any shards of broken quarts located in the vicinity of upper mine ?

While up near the top, it would be good to get a photograph of the one visible peak at the 4-peaks view spot.

Maybe the blown out hidden camp ?
Or - should any success just stay silent?
What would convince you all to go for it, but not every Tom, Dick, or Harry?

The objective would be to share the find with Dutch hunters. 🤷🏼‍♂️ For those that been out there looking.

Productive feedback is welcome, even desired.
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

Idahodutch

It's good to see you prepping for the trip. We are all wishing you the best and may all the spirits of Luck, be at your side.

I agree with you, there's been plenty of waterfall this Winter and the springs should all be (at least most of them), pretty well filled for the extension of needed water. Here in California it's been really a wet season, as our waterways in our Mountains and Canyons are flowing well - with anywhere between 3 to 6 feet of water in depth. So, seeing all of it here, I can only expect it to be flowing with a roar, in your perspective area of interest. The weather in the Supes looks to be perfect - not too hot, not too cold and I'm envy of you, to say the least. My plans to get out there, have certainly been pushed back, now looking at October-ish.

With regards to possible results and how to approach your quandary; silence does seem to fit the bill. Though we would all love to hear your words from afar - screaming out victory, it would probably be wise to show subtlety. Maybe a couple of pictures of the 'elemental clues' that have always been known (i.e., the wooden beams, the depth of the pit, the quartz itself, etc.). Maybe some old items/gear of the past, owned by Jacob (i.e., frying pan, tools, etc.). Of course getting a picture of the supposed skeletons that are rumored to be in the pit/shaft - would be an excellent and victorious find. That I would believe, would sum up the legend and it's descriptive clues. Either way, we sit here with bated breath, waiting to exhale.
Travel well my friend - Spartanoc

 

[Idahodutch]

Idahodutch

It's good to see you prepping for the trip. We are all wishing you the best and may all the spirits of Luck, be at your side.

I agree with you, there's been plenty of waterfall this Winter and the springs should all be (at least most of them), pretty well filled for the extension of needed water. Here in California it's been really a wet season, as our waterways in our Mountains and Canyons are flowing well - with anywhere between 3 to 6 feet of water in depth. So, seeing all of it here, I can only expect it to be flowing with a roar, in your perspective area of interest. The weather in the Supes looks to be perfect - not too hot, not too cold and I'm envy of you, to say the least. My plans to get out there, have certainly been pushed back, now looking at October-ish.

With regards to possible results and how to approach your quandary; silence does seem to fit the bill. Though we would all love to hear your words from afar - screaming out victory, it would probably be wise to show subtlety. Maybe a couple of pictures of the 'elemental clues' that have always been known (i.e., the wooden beams, the depth of the pit, the quartz itself, etc.). Maybe some old items/gear of the past, owned by Jacob (i.e., frying pan, tools, etc.). Of course getting a picture of the supposed skeletons that are rumored to be in the pit/shaft - would be an excellent and victorious find. That I would believe, would sum up the legend and it's descriptive clues. Either way, we sit here with bated breath, waiting to exhale.
Travel well my friend - Spartanoc

Spartanoc,
It is a strange feeling, as there are still elements of the unknown, that one can only speculate about, until going through the motions.

This certainly looks to be the place. It very well may actually be it. 🙏🏻 🙌🏻 🤷🏼‍♂️
History has many folk, that have thought and believed the same thing about other locations….. 😩 that old saying … stuff happens 🥴
I hope this is the correct location, and I hope we all are able to take an adventure, to gather some samples. 😎👍

Right now, I hope for safe travels, and good health 👌🤓.

We’ll see you on the other side 😁
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[SPARTANOC]

Spartanoc,
It is a strange feeling, as there are still elements of the unknown, that one can only speculate about, until going through the motions.

This certainly looks to be the place. It very well may actually be it. 🙏🏻 🙌🏻 🤷🏼‍♂️
History has many folk, that have thought and believed the same thing about other locations….. 😩 that old saying … stuff happens 🥴
I hope this is the correct location, and I hope we all are able to take an adventure, to gather some samples. 😎👍

Right now, I hope for safe travels, and good health 👌🤓.

We’ll see you on the other side 😁
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

Idahodutch

Sending specific prayers to you - regarding the empowerment of your health. I know you've got this, I can feel it in my old bones. From what all I've read about those in the Supes, adventure is always around the corner. Just listen to your instincts, read your surroundings carefully, and have readied your strength and move like a 'ninja' through those hills of intrigue. You could be on the verge of something historic - possibly a game changer in this lore.

I expect you to pace yourself young man - as I believe there's more in it for you, even after this run. Oh, and I'm curious about that mine pit you've mentioned discovered by your buddy back in 2009. Did your friend actually open the portal or enter there in?
- Spartanoc

 

[EDN]

Idahodutch

Sending specific prayers to you - regarding the empowerment of your health. I know you've got this, I can feel it in my old bones. From what all I've read about those in the Supes, adventure is always around the corner. Just listen to your instincts, read your surroundings carefully, and have readied your strength and move like a 'ninja' through those hills of intrigue. You could be on the verge of something historic - possibly a game changer in this lore.

I expect you to pace yourself young man - as I believe there's more in it for you, even after this run. Oh, and I'm curious about that mine pit you've mentioned discovered by your buddy back in 2009. Did your friend actually open the portal or enter there in?
- Spartanoc

Idahodutch,

I hope everything goes well on your trip. I sincerely enjoyed your posts. I hope you don't drop off just because you find the mine. I think we would all enjoy some pictures. Good luck and be Safe. This place is filled with rattlesnakes and lots of other poisonous plants and critters. My personal favorite is Cat Claw. That plant has chewed up me and my equipment like none other.

Again, Good Luck and Safe Travels.

EDN

 

[Idahodutch]

Idahodutch

Sending specific prayers to you - regarding the empowerment of your health. I know you've got this, I can feel it in my old bones. From what all I've read about those in the Supes, adventure is always around the corner. Just listen to your instincts, read your surroundings carefully, and have readied your strength and move like a 'ninja' through those hills of intrigue. You could be on the verge of something historic - possibly a game changer in this lore.

I expect you to pace yourself young man - as I believe there's more in it for you, even after this run. Oh, and I'm curious about that mine pit you've mentioned discovered by your buddy back in 2009. Did your friend actually open the portal or enter there in?
- Spartanoc

Spartanoc,
Thank you for the prayers.

The old workings my buddy found, has a giant boulder directly on to of the entrance. A very difficult place.
He was able to probe around under the boulder, and found old equipment in and near the entrance….. some timbers, an old hand crank winch of sorts… 🥸

A small flat area (shelf) at the entrance location… lots of old tin cans laying around. 🥸

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[SPARTANOC]

Spartanoc,
Thank you for the prayers.

The old workings my buddy found, has a giant boulder directly on to of the entrance. A very difficult place.
He was able to probe around under the boulder, and found old equipment in and near the entrance….. some timbers, an old hand crank winch of sorts… 🥸

A small flat area (shelf) at the entrance location… lots of old tin cans laying around. 🥸

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

Idahodutch

That sounds like an outstanding find if I do say so myself. Any guess as to what year (time period) those cans reflect?
-Spartanoc

 

[Idahodutch]

Idahodutch,

I hope everything goes well on your trip. I sincerely enjoyed your posts. I hope you don't drop off just because you find the mine. I think we would all enjoy some pictures. Good luck and be Safe. This place is filled with rattlesnakes and lots of other poisonous plants and critters. My personal favorite is Cat Claw. That plant has chewed up me and my equipment like none other.

Again, Good Luck and Safe Travels.

EDN

EDN,
Thanks for the post. 👍👍
If there ends up being big news, we’ll get creative 🤓😁

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

Idahodutch

That sounds like an outstanding find if I do say so myself. Any guess as to what year (time period) those cans reflect?
-Spartanoc

Spartanoc,
🤓 I wasn’t there, but he showed me pictures.
He said tin cans, with seams … my guess is 1940’s - 1970’s 🤷🏼‍♂️

Sincerely,
Idahodutch