Attention Archeologists, Museum curators. Could be the holy grail. You tell me.

[sonofmitch]

I found this several years ago near Victoria Texas on the San Antonio river. It's made of brass or bronze and is about 11 inches across and is approximately 1/8 thick. It stands 5 inches high and has a center hole that is 3 inches in diameter. There are six other 5/8 inch holes with one in each corner of its hexagonal shape. These holes are made such that if something were inserted into them that object would stand vertically and not at any other angle than 90 degrees. It appears to be Spanish or French just 'cause I want it to be.
The way it was made was by making 6 identical pieces that were bent to the same shape to make each of the six sides and joined with rivets through the decorative strips that cover each seam. I would say that it's off of a ship, from a mission, or off of a carriage. Surely not a hubcap. Maybe a decorative base for a flagpole Then why the little holes. Six flags over Texas?? Looks hammered into shape. Each of the six pieces at one time had other pieces riveted to them which would have stuck our from the edges that you see now.

Any ideas?? Anyone

 

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[sonofmitch]

Big Cypress etc.

You know I noticed for the first time after I took last nights pictures that toward the outside edge from the holes the pieces seem to come together such that they were either never seperate or were rejoined in some manner. It looks as if they were actually rejoined. Instead of a weld it looks more like they spread the joint with icing or something. I've scratched at this "icing" with my fingernail and it don't budge. It's not just dirt. On one corner the split clearly goes past the hole and continues toward the edge just to dissapear under the "icing". You can't see how far the crack goes beyond the hole 'cause it goes under the skirt but from the topside it stops right about the skirts inside edge and from there on it looks perfectly smooth like there was never a seperation there.
I justy don't get it. Here are pictures to show what I'm talking about. Actually I first noticed it on the inside edge of the 3 inch hole. There is the same kind of thing where "icing" was used to reattatch just before the actual edge.

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Could it be cast all one piece and later cut with 3 saw lines but not all the way down? The bottom skirt appears to be for re-enforcement.
In all 6 pics there is a rivet right where the seam supposed to be. (arrow points to rivet hole)

The rivets look hammered on both ends with no head. Very crude rivets.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Could the bottom be soldered/brazed together? Why not solder/braze/weld the whole thing? Or was it never cut all the way down? Why cast it in 6 pieces only to rivet it together?

It looks like it was sawed 3 times. The reason could be to open up to fit over something and then bent back and the "decorative" strips were riveted on for re-enforcement. The bottom holds it all together and needs to be the strongest so a skirt was also riveted.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Is the underside more tarnished than the top side?

 

[sonofmitch]

Sorry I didn't answer the questions that were asked on my last comment. Here are pics of the inside of 3 inch hole as well.

I also thought about the armour thing but I couldn't figure out what part of my body I wanted to put in this thing. Maybe I should watch Monty Python Search for the Holy Grail again.

Oh yeah, the rivets. Some of them appear to be hammered on the inside and others from the outside. I don't think any show hammering from both sides.

While I was writing this I noticed BigCypress' comment about it being sawed. I guess that's possible but I just can't decide for sure. At any rate it still has some kind of "icing" on it at these points. Just not visible from the outside.

Here is another weird feature. Each of the six sides has inside at least 4 squarish looking freckles . Two in the flaired out region of the side and twoish just inside the 3 inch hole along with the riviet line around the hole. There is no uniformity in their location or spacing between the two. You can see two of them in BigCypress's picture where he has placed a red arrow. Below the notched end of the arrow and above and left of the picture date. In the note he left mentioning armour.
I would also say that the underside may be more tarnished looking because it is more difficult to clean. But that being said it's also more rough and unfinished which would allow it to corrode more redely. Plus it's so rough it's almost as if some of this "icing" may have been spread around inside.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Could it be brazed? The icing may be welding and the freckles are clumps of the braze. This seems the most logical.
Brazing clumps (freckles) should be filed smooth and they probably were on the outside but were left rough on the inside where it wouldnt be seen... If the brazing material (which could be brass or bronze) isnt hot enough to flow well it will look lumpy like this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazing

 

[72cheyenne]

In the last set of pics I would definately say it looks to be welded/soldered/brazed. The very last pic looks like the slot was sawn.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It definitely looks brazed and it was filed smooth on the top side.

The poor brazing, coupled with the rivets being set from different sides point to an unprofessional and home made item.

 

[sonofmitch]

What do you think about these "brazing freckles" all being square?
Also how would you form these crease lines on the outside? None of the previous pictures really show them so I took another.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Your pics are getting better. Great pics. It looks very old. I dont have all the answers but it appears to be brazed. I doubt it is epoxy glue.

I dont know what those square things are because its hard to see but I will guess that someone tried to melt some square pieces of brass or squarish lengths onto the joint in a crude attempt at welding. Thats all brazing is, is melting brass/bronze in the joint but its usually done with a brass/bronze rod. It looks kinda unprofessional. The holes also are not centered. The rivets are hammered on different sides, you said. The head should always be on the face side.

I dont have any guesses on the creases. If the crease is on a six sides, I would assume that it came out of the mold that way. The six identical brass castings were then crudely brazed together on the bottom forming a hex shaped item. Decorative strips were cut or cast and bent into place, small holes were drilled thru and the strips riveted on for strength. Six larger holes were then drilled around the base. A skirt was also riveted on the bottom for re-enforcement or maybe it broke from a larger piece. This is my best guess from what I see. What it was used for, I dont know...

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Mitch ~

I just this minute received the following copy/pasted reply ...

(It's just more food for thought, and I have no further comment at this time).

Bob

~ * ~

You have a most interesting find. It's curious how many strange and interesting things come out of the earth in your part of Texas. I suspect that periodic flooding and periods of windy dryness have secured a lot of things in the earth around you.

I think it's a lantern top but, without being able to examine it, I can't tell if it's early Spanish or a Victorian piece that may have been buried at the time of the Galveston flood. Thanks for showing it to me. Whatever it is, if it's copper or brass, it's bound to have some value.

Steve

 

[bearbqd]

Re: Attention Archeologists, Museum curators. Could be the holy grail. You tell

Christmas tree stand??

 

[SgtSki in MI]

And you're asking the Archies? I wouldn't draw an Archie's attention to ANYTHING that I find. They'll just try to confiscate your find (and equipment) and do their best to get the Feds to get you to divulge the location of your find with bright lights and rubber hoses, culminating with a nice fine and/or jail stay.

At least the Archaeologists in England have realized the contribution that metal detectorists make to their field, but here in the US they are the antichrist! They'd rather that something deteriorate into a mere soil discoloration than to have someone other than THEMSELVES find it, and consider a strip mall built over a potential site to be "Good Encapsulation". They have manipulated the system to a point that, even though the ARPA (Archaeological Resources Protection Act) CLEARLY states that it is perfectly OK to look for COINS on most Federal land, I wouldn't recommmend trying it! What's worse, they are the ones (The State Archies) who have the lawmakers' ear in our respective states. The deck is stacked against us big-time. And then when they are tsk-tsking us for detecting for coins and relics, the hypocrite have sizeable collections in their own homes, comprized of item that we can only dream of!

OK, I'll get off of my soapbox now....I just don't like Archies a whole lot (Unless they're Brits!) All they are are officially-sanctioned grave robbers!

HH,
SgtSki

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I received this reply today ...

I'm (copy/paste) posting it as is, and will let everyone read it for themselves and draw their own conclusions. Nothing definitive, but certainly more food for thought. I will likely do a follow up on this as they suggested, but it will probably take some time. I'll be back!

SODABOB

~ * ~

Greetings, Bob

I've sent this around to some historians and archeologists, including my wife Gayle Harrison Hartmann, John Madsen, Jim Ayers, Alan Ferg (AZ State Museum), Don Burgess (organizer of "Coronado Road Show"), and Bernard Fontana(historian/archaeologist) who headed some amazing restoration work on our San Xavier mission here, and Jake Ivey (National Park Service archaeologist, Santa Fe), Jake's worked on colonial era sites in Texas.

It seems none of us has come up with anything very definitive. It seems unlikely to come from the Coronado expedition, as they may not have carried such large decorative items, and they did not pass near Goliad.

John, Alan, and I speculated about it being either the base of a post or pole (as for a tent or ramada), where the holes might be to drive in pegs to stabilize it, or perhaps the decorative top of such a post, where the holes could attache guy lines, or perhaps top of a spire on a field tent or more permanent architecture. Dr. Fontana said he'd seen nothing like it, but also suggested it might be the top of some structure, and noted a certain "chandelier quality" suggesting that the base might have been actually to upper side in installation. This is all similar to your suggestions. But this was all speculation on our part, and does not link it to any particular historic period or group.

Maybe the best response for you is from Jake. I take the liberty of quoting some questions that he raised;

"I'd have to look it over closely to come to any conclusion about whether it's colonial. The appearance of the decorative strips look colonial, but the rivets don't seem to look quite right, at least what I can see of them. I'd also need more information about the "sheets" or whatever is attached to the underside -- what are these made of, and how are they attached? A higher resolution set of photos would help, with shots of the underside and interior. Also, how near Goliad was it found? I mean, was it found in the old town blocks around the presidio, or out near Rosario, or near the old rancho on the south side of the river? I'm wondering if it's associated with the Anglo town or more with Spanish sites."

~ * ~

Bob, you might like to send a few more pictures to Jake, who may be able to come up with more information. Thanks for your interest in archaeology, and good luck with getting a better identification!

Bill

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

You put a lot of work into this Bob and got some great responses from some highly educated sources. I suggest send a link to this TN thread. We can always use new members.


Now that I have determined it is welded, maybe you could find out how old the process. Does anybody know how old is brass welding?

 

[sonofmitch]

Just looking back over this five+ year old post and wanted to thank everyone for their efforts. Have never learned anymore about it but still concerned about its history and significance.
Thanks again
Mitch

 

[sutphin]

Finial base for the top of a cupola, vanzutphen

 

[sonofmitch]

I think you might be right.

 

[sonofmitch]

Different river. Victoria is the Guadalupe river. San Antonio emplies into it just before they both go into the bay.