Borrowing From Peter to Pay Paul

bigscoop

Gold Member
Jun 4, 2010
13,521
9,060
Wherever there be treasure!
Detector(s) used
Older blue Excal with full mods, Equinox 800.
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Someone asked me to do a video on all of this but it's really better suited for a short article, so here goes, and I'm really not trying to upset anyone's boat. I'm just trying to help to make everyone a more successful detectorist, just as many have helped me over the years with this same priceless advice.

So, are you, borrowing from Peter to pay Paul?

Turn your machine on, set it to all metal and crank the sensitivity all the way up. “This is the most sensitive and deepest mode of operation on any machine.” Everything we, or manufactures, do after this point is a borrowing from Peter to pay Paul scenario.

They can paste any name they want on all those other modes, i.e., Super Mode, Beach Mode, Park Mode, and even Colossal Mode, whatever, all of them borrowing from Peter to pay Paul in order to provide the detectorist with more conveniences. Until the day comes that they are allowed to put more power through their machines they are powerless in the creating of greater depth and greater sensitivity than a machine can achieve when in the all metal mode with the sensitivity cranked all the way up. At this point the machine is all the way maxed out. (On some machines pinpoint can be even more so.)

And when you switch from disc mode to all metal there no longer exist any recovery speed issues because everything becomes instantaneous, the machine now operating at instant recovery.

Of course we can't hunt with everything maxed out, but we can use “limited balancing” by way of all the provided machine filter settings. So this is also what all of these other provided modes are doing for us, and in many cases at the cost of performance somewhere else, or “the borrowing from Peter to pay Paul.” But keep in mind, we may not want to pay Paul and in many cases that may not even be in our own best interest, but all of those other modes with all of those factory installed presets don't care.

This is why many detectorist who understand all of this refuse to hunt in anything other than the all metal mode, or why others like myself are constantly switching back forth from a disc mode to the all metal mode, so that we're either always detecting at maximum performance levels or so we always have quick access to it whenever required, which is quite often.

It took some of the best detectorist on the planet and many engineers to pound this cold hard fact into my head and it has absolutely advanced my detecting skills and my rate of success by leaps and bounds on land, the beach, and in saltwater and freshwater environments, everywhere I now hunt. And it's only this understanding that can provide us an advantage as nothing else can, regardless what they call it or how it is programmed.

I'm only bringing all of this up because I see sooooo many post about all of these different modes, new uploads, etc., only to see these same posters posting something on down the road as to the recently discovered shortcomings of those same modes and/or uploads after they have used them for a while. YES! Exactly! As will “always” be the case! Such is the reality and the nature of the technology at hand.

Yes, I use some of those other modes too but all metal mode is also constantly in play and I'd be trying to eat an apple with only my lower teeth without it. Like I said, I use a few of those other modes too but in reality they are user convenient crutches and the only way to take full advantage of them is by understanding all of the above. Otherwise they may just end up taking advantage of you.

I really hope this info helps because, “it will once it is accepted.” Took me a long time to accept it and I'm oh-so glad that I finally did.

Just this afternoon, per example, I got these 1907 & 1800-something Indian Head pennies from my old “hunted out” city park that I frequent a lot. First, this park is nowhere near hunted out as I just keep continuing recovering more old coins and other items from this super trashy land. And I can tell you straight up, however, that if I didn't have a solid understanding of all the above and I had been relying on all those other modes and programs, etc., I wouldn't have even known these two old coins were down there. Both were deep, in super trashy ground, and my decision to investigate them further and to ultimately dig them was determined by what my machine was telling me once I had switch to the all metal mode, which is like night and day in terms of the accuracy of the information I was getting back. And I am 100% confident that I'm going to continue to keep finding old coins, even more silver coins, from this old “hunted out” city park, and elsewhere. I could have never said that or had this much confidence prior to my understanding of all the above.

So maybe take a step back and reevaluate what's really important, and/or, what is a big deal and what isn't, because I promise you that all of the above WILL have a positive effect on your confidence level and your rate of success. Go ahead and use those crutches, but use them sparingly and don't become reliant on them because they can cost you dearly.

Question for you. Are you confident that if those desired items are down there and within reach of your machine, and without those crutches, that you can find them? This should be every serious detectorist first and only priority. Unfortunately, like many, I too went the long and defiant road getting to this point.

Cheers!

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Upvote 18
I agree 100% with you these new fangled detectors I believe they have added way to many filters and it has hindered the performance of these new cell phones on a stick detectors, i have gone down the road of these new Digital detectors and have since made a 180 degree turn and went back to a good old Analog and I am now enjoying detecting again, these Analog detectors for me has brought the fun back into detecting for me
I am finding that in a lot of cases these analogs I am now using are not only deeper but can pull a non ferrous target out of a bed of nails, I have done several test using the Legend, Deus, and a borrowed Nox 800 and 600 putting them up against the Golden Mask 7, Golden Mask 4WD, Deep Tech Vista X, and Troy Shadow X5 in every test I have done on the Ground I detect the 4 Analogs have out performed the Digital Cell Phones on a Stick detectors, my belief is because of the Analogs having Less filtering they are not hindered like the Digital detectors, and yes I truly believe it is all due to the amount of filtering that has been introduced to these new Digital so called top of the line whiz bang cell phones on a stick detectors I believe the manufacturers have done this on purpose also.

One other thing if you look at all these new detectors coming out every single one of them come out with a large coil which I also believe hinders their performance even further, these analogs I am currently using I am running small coils on everyone of them and they are all out performing these new Digital detectors
I've never used an analog detector. Just last week I bought a Deeptech Vista X to try. It's on it's way to me now. I'm interested to see for myself what you are talking about. I've read and watched videos about this very subject and it peeked my interest.
 

I've never used an analog detector. Just last week I bought a Deeptech Vista X to try. It's on it's way to me now. I'm interested to see for myself what you are talking about. I've read and watched videos about this very subject and it peeked my interest.
I think you will like the Vista X, one suggestion I have is purchase the 8 Inch concentric coil for the Vista X, I have the stock coil the 8 Inch Concentric, super 6 and the 5x7 Elliptical the 8 inch concentric is my favorite coil for the Vista X
 

I think you will like the Vista X, one suggestion I have is purchase the 8 Inch concentric coil for the Vista X, I have the stock coil the 8 Inch Concentric, super 6 and the 5x7 Elliptical the 8 inch concentric is my favorite coil for the Vista X
also do not do like I did and try to ground balance the X with the Iron Volume turned off LOL, that way it will give you two tones, with the Iron Volume off you will only have a single tone on every thing
 

also do not do like I did and try to ground balance the X with the Iron Volume turned off LOL, that way it will give you two tones, with the Iron Volume off you will only have a single tone on every thing
Yeah, watched a video on ground balancing and that was mentioned.
 

I agree 100% with you these new fangled detectors I believe they have added way to many filters and it has hindered the performance of these new cell phones on a stick detectors, i have gone down the road of these new Digital detectors and have since made a 180 degree turn and went back to a good old Analog and I am now enjoying detecting again, these Analog detectors for me has brought the fun back into detecting for me
I am finding that in a lot of cases these analogs I am now using are not only deeper but can pull a non ferrous target out of a bed of nails, I have done several test using the Legend, Deus, and a borrowed Nox 800 and 600 putting them up against the Golden Mask 7, Golden Mask 4WD, Deep Tech Vista X, and Troy Shadow X5 in every test I have done on the Ground I detect the 4 Analogs have out performed the Digital Cell Phones on a Stick detectors, my belief is because of the Analogs having Less filtering they are not hindered like the Digital detectors, and yes I truly believe it is all due to the amount of filtering that has been introduced to these new Digital so called top of the line whiz bang cell phones on a stick detectors I believe the manufacturers have done this on purpose also.

One other thing if you look at all these new detectors coming out every single one of them come out with a large coil which I also believe hinders their performance even further, these analogs I am currently using I am running small coils on everyone of them and they are all out performing these new Digital detectors
I appreciate and use some the features on today's new machines but I'm also aware of the potential drawbacks of those features/filters and know how to quickly give them a second look through counter actions. I.E., Even a simple short and rapid sweeping of the coil can generate stronger and more reliable returns, switching to AM can also aid in separation because recovery speeds become instantaneous and this action can also generate stronger and more reliable returns, etc., etc.

The industry has always been aware of the need of different coil sizes, and why and when those different coil sizes can make a huge difference. Even today they are still aware of all of this. However, "It's not what today's market is demanding."
 

I appreciate and use some the features on today's new machines but I'm also aware of the potential drawbacks of those features/filters and know how to quickly give them a second look through counter actions. I.E., Even a simple short and rapid sweeping of the coil can generate stronger and more reliable returns, switching to AM can also aid in separation because recovery speeds become instantaneous and this action can also generate stronger and more reliable returns, etc., etc.

The industry has always been aware of the need of different coil sizes, and why and when those different coil sizes can make a huge difference. Even today they are still aware of all of this. However, "It's not what today's market is demanding."
I've been detecting for a year and a half. Up until very recently I though the bigger the coil the better. Then I bought an XP ORX with the small HF coil and started finding more. I have since bought small coils for all my detectors and have been happy.
 

I've been detecting for a year and a half. Up until very recently I though the bigger the coil the better. Then I bought an XP ORX with the small HF coil and started finding more. I have since bought small coils for all my detectors and have been happy.
We have all gone through the bigger the coil the better and the deeper, which in some cases is true depending on the ground you are detecting, what I have found is on the ground I detect which is highly mineralized big coils are a no go simply because a large coil when used enhances everything in the ground, and what I mean by this get in your vehicle and drive into a heavy fog in your car and turn your high beams on that's exactly what happens on heavily mineralized ground when you are running to large of a coil and when you are running the sensitivity to high it blurs everything to a detector, the hardest thing to get through to someone new to detecting is to get them to lower their sensitivity and go to a smaller coil when detecting on heavily mineralized ground.

one of the stupidest things I was ever told by a rep of one of the manufactures on their detector was run the ground balance at zero all the time that it was like ground balancing to the clouds when you do this,
(When do we detect clouds) all ground has minerals even mild ground
Ground balancing a detector is another thing that I feel is key to a detectors performance, it helps a detector to get its best performance, if a detector is not ground balanced properly to the ground you are detecting it can not perform at its peak performance if its not properly ground balanced, and I firmly believe this, I personally ground balance every detector I use no matter how mild the ground is.
 

We have all gone through the bigger the coil the better and the deeper, which in some cases is true depending on the ground you are detecting, what I have found is on the ground I detect which is highly mineralized big coils are a no go simply because a large coil when used enhances everything in the ground, and what I mean by this get in your vehicle and drive into a heavy fog in your car and turn your high beams on that's exactly what happens on heavily mineralized ground when you are running to large of a coil and when you are running the sensitivity to high it blurs everything to a detector, the hardest thing to get through to someone new to detecting is to get them to lower their sensitivity and go to a smaller coil when detecting on heavily mineralized ground.

one of the stupidest things I was ever told by a rep of one of the manufactures on their detector was run the ground balance at zero all the time that it was like ground balancing to the clouds when you do this,
(When do we detect clouds) all ground has minerals even mild ground
Ground balancing a detector is another thing that I feel is key to a detectors performance, it helps a detector to get its best performance, if a detector is not ground balanced properly to the ground you are detecting it can not perform at its peak performance if its not properly ground balanced, and I firmly believe this, I personally ground balance every detector I use no matter how mild the ground is.
The only detectors I don't ground balance are the XP's. Too me, it never seemed to make a difference on them. I'm in mild ground though.
 

The only detectors I don't ground balance are the XP's. Too me, it never seemed to make a difference on them. I'm in mild ground though.
I've said it before; I ground balance my Dēus II because the manual recommends it, and it's so simple there's no reason not to. Takes maybe 5-6 seconds.

But FWIW, it almost never changes regardless of where I've detected. Boring soil I guess. :dontknow:
 

I've said it before; I ground balance my Dēus II because the manual recommends it, and it's so simple there's no reason not to. Takes maybe 5-6 seconds.

But FWIW, it almost never changes regardless of where I've detected. Boring soil I guess. :dontknow:
I have seen the ground I detect go from heavily mineralized then drop down to low minerals and then go back up to highly mineralized with in a 20 foot area

I do a ground grab with my ORX
 

Well, the Vista X is out for delivery today. Maybe I'll take some time out in the heat to give it a try this afternoon.
 

Well, the Vista X is out for delivery today. Maybe I'll take some time out in the heat to give it a try this afternoon.
Good luck, let us know what you think
 

The only detectors I don't ground balance are the XP's. Too me, it never seemed to make a difference on them. I'm in mild ground though.
I noticed you have a Legend, have you ever activated the Mineralization meter on your Legend to check how heavy the mineralization is, when you activate that mineralization meter in the Legend it changes the Ferro Check feature into the Mineralization meter and its a very useful tool that the Legend has as one of the features

when you activate the mineralization meter on the left side of the mineralization meter is (Iron Particles in Ground) I.E Magnetite, and the right side of the mineralization meter is (Salt Content in ground) I use that mineralization meter all the time to tell me what the ground I detect is doing, in a lot of the areas I detect for gold the left side of the mineralization meter is pegged at 10 bars of iron particles in ground and the right side of the meter runs 6-8 bars of salt content in ground which tells me I am detecting heavily mineralized ground most VLFs struggle on the ground I detect so I am swinging my Axiom (PI) to battle the mineralization and the hot rocks

to activate that mineralization meter click the ground balance button one time and then click the button that changes modes you will see GI (Ground Indicator)come up it actually looks like a 6I but its actually GI
 

I noticed you have a Legend, have you ever activated the Mineralization meter on your Legend to check how heavy the mineralization is, when you activate that mineralization meter in the Legend it changes the Ferro Check feature into the Mineralization meter and its a very useful tool that the Legend has as one of the features

when you activate the mineralization meter on the left side of the mineralization meter is (Iron Particles in Ground) I.E Magnetite, and the right side of the mineralization meter is (Salt Content in ground) I use that mineralization meter all the time to tell me what the ground I detect is doing, in a lot of the areas I detect for gold the left side of the mineralization meter is pegged at 10 bars of iron particles in ground and the right side of the meter runs 6-8 bars of salt content in ground which tells me I am detecting heavily mineralized ground most VLFs struggle on the ground I detect so I am swinging my Axiom (PI) to battle the mineralization and the hot rocks

to activate that mineralization meter click the ground balance button one time and then click the button that changes modes you will see GI (Ground Indicator)come up it actually looks like a 6I but its actually GI
I did use the mineralization meter once or twice on the Legend. My ground is typically not very mineralized. My biggest problem is EMI from underground dog fences.
 

Went out as long as I could stand the heat. Waited till 6pm. Had iron tones not even the Manticore could hear. However, I have to turn the sensitivity down because of the dog fences. Got a horseshoe nail about 9 inches deep, a round iron dodad that may have been a nail at one time, a bent nail, and a U piece of nail or hook. I'll post pics later. I'm on my phone and I can't process the raw images till I move them to my computer.

I'm really happy with the Vista X. There are signals where there were none with the other machines. Again, I need to run sensitivity low on the others (dog fences). The Vista X doesn't seem to have that issue with threshold at 40 and gain all the way up.

Horseshoe nail.
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Went out as long as I could stand the heat. Waited till 6pm. Had iron tones not even the Manticore could hear. However, I have to turn the sensitivity down because of the dog fences. Got a horseshoe nail about 9 inches deep, a round iron dodad that may have been a nail at one time, a bent nail, and a U piece of nail or hook. I'll post pics later. I'm on my phone and I can't process the raw images till I move them to my computer.

I'm really happy with the Vista X. There are signals where there were none with the other machines. Again, I need to run sensitivity low on the others (dog fences). The Vista X doesn't seem to have that issue with threshold at 40 and gain all the way up.

Horseshoe nail.
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Save all that old iron scrap and use it as a learning tool on how to disc it out with the Vista X, once you learn to do that you can literally pile those nails on top of a non ferrous target (coin) and the Vista X will give you a clean high tone on the tone and a low scratchy tone on the nails that are piled on the coin
 

Went out as long as I could stand the heat. Waited till 6pm. Had iron tones not even the Manticore could hear. However, I have to turn the sensitivity down because of the dog fences. Got a horseshoe nail about 9 inches deep, a round iron dodad that may have been a nail at one time, a bent nail, and a U piece of nail or hook. I'll post pics later. I'm on my phone and I can't process the raw images till I move them to my computer.

I'm really happy with the Vista X. There are signals where there were none with the other machines. Again, I need to run sensitivity low on the others (dog fences). The Vista X doesn't seem to have that issue with threshold at 40 and gain all the way up.

Horseshoe nail.
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Here is a video to show you what the Vista X can do

 

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