Charles L Halls lost gold lode

Crow

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While this is indeed a thread of superstition mountain legends in which we all know the Lost Dutchman legends and the Peralta legend dominate such legends of the superstitions.

There is another story that gets a little lost and forgotten. It can be argued that its not in superstition mountains but as the exact borders of what was known as superstitions some times have been ill defined. Some times the area is defined within the Superstition mining district.

That area is next to Superstition wilderness park. With a collective name of Goldfield. That for a time was a once productive goldfield.

Charles L Hall was already a successful businessman with numerous business when he came down from Denver Colorado and bought out the mining claims of 3 Mormon gold prospectors for the then absurd sum of 20 thousand dollars. What was then was to a little known gold strike found west of Superstitions.

Here is a picture of Charles and his wife below.

Charles Hall.JPG

A former underground Au-Ag-Mo-Mn-Cu mine that Charles hall and his business partner D Sullivan is located on 88 claims (1920) in sec. 1, T1N, R8E, about ¾ mile SE of Goldfield, 2 miles ESE of Saddle Rock, between the Superstition and Goldfield Mountains, 36 miles East of Phoenix, on private land.

Underground mining started the early 1890's and originally owned by C. Hall & D. Sullivan. Operating between 1893-1894, a lot of gold
mineralization is hosted in rhyolite.

gold feild mine 2.jpg

gold feild mine.jpg

The geological setting is a pediment floored by coarse-textured granite, indurated conglomerate and granite breccia. The principal workings are in the vicinity of 2 Northward-trending, steeply Westward-dipping faults that outcrop about 300 feet apart. Tertiary volcanic fields are adjacent to this mine, both NW & SE of the drainage where it is located.

Width below the 426 foot level ranges from 16-36 feet, all worked for the 1240 foot length.
Workings include at least three shafts. The main shaft was sunk to the 1000 foot level. Additionally, thousands of feet of drifts were driven. Workings overall totaled 377.95 meters in length and 304.8 meters in depth. One named working is the 'Mormon stope.'Named after the three Mormon prospectors that the mine was bought from.

As you can see from The Denver National bank accounts. The mine was very productive.

denver-national-bank-statement-hall_1_7efba303074e2122c55588bfaa2a8a3d.jpg

However disaster struck in 1894 when a massive flood when buried workings and flooded the mine. Technology available at the time was unable to dewater the mine. In 1906 Charles L Halls son Died and Charles Hall died himself an old man in 1907. Thus his wife was left deal with a flooded mine. In the end Halls wife sold off the family assets and the Mammoth mine as it was called was sold.

The Young Mines Co., Ltd., headed by G.U. Young an ex employee of Hall, acquired the property in 1910 and spent about 15 years exploring it.Used massive steam pumps to dewater the mine. But hit the north west trending fault and could not locate the continuation of the lode. However he and other operators included Young Mines Co.; Goldfield Mines; E.L. Jones; E.H. Shumway; and Hebner & Funk tried in vain to find the direction of gold lode in Mormon stope with had hit one of the north west trending faults.

So the mystery was? Was there more gold beyond the north west trending fault?

As you can see below the mining area of goldfeild was in a collapsed caldera.

calsera gold feild.JPG

And there is a theory that between the bulldog mine in west and the mammoth mine in east there is a continuation of the Mormon stope on the other side of north west trending fault.

Crow
 

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Crow

Crow

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Gidday Alan

To get a better picture of what was happening millions of years ago. We have to look at geological picture. the area around goldfeild was a collapsed caldera.

You can see in the diagram below.

caldera.jpg

(A) composite cone a normal volcano created by up welling of magma spewing lava or cinder from the active magma chamber below.

(b) A collapsed caldera when the magma chamber is spent spewing ash and lava the volcano and magma chamber below the volcano collapses.

(c) A resurgent caldera is when the magma chamber starts to reform causing the floor of the collapsed caldera to rise.

In the diagram below you can see the extent of the Superior volcanic field. In time the cauldrons came and went the biggest was Superstition cauldron that later became the collapsed caldera we see today.

It is from this activity that super heated mineralized water drive up minerals through epithermal vents through ore chimneys then spreading through fractures in the host rock creating mineralized veins of ore. Some of these veins of ore in the due course of time became exposed and through the natural process of erosion began shredding gold into alluvial deposits near the surface.

SUP_6850r.jpg

As the caldera collapsed around what is now goldfeild. the Ore chimney normally would be vertical was tilted 67 degrees towards the north west. Essentially tilting 67 degrees towards the volcano collapsing in on itself after the magma chamber was spent.

We have evidence of that from the Palmer mine. Just east of Mammoth mine. 3 core drilling holes intercepted 3 ore chimneys and intercepting rich veins of gold bearing ore.

This epidermal vent was on the margins of the collapsed caldera which so happens to be at the foot of superstition mountain.

geological map of superstitions.JPG

Crow
 

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Crow

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Even so caution should be read into mining reports. Especially when Mining companies give Calculation of ore tonnage and grade from drill hole samples. There is a big difference between "known" and "inferred" grades per ton. in short calculation is made from 3 sample drill holes with the triangulation. "inferred" protects a mining company from being sued from investors if the known grade turns out to be much less.

For me and rest of the trio ours was not to reason why but to drill or die.:laughing7:

Calculation of ore content of ore tonnage and grade from drill hole samples are done by geologists and mining engineers and a dedicated assay department. Here is a much better explanation on how the values are calculated.

https://www.911metallurgist.com/blog/calculation-ore-tonnage-grade-drill-hole-samples

Crow
 

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KANACKI

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Hola Crow amigo

Goldfield was already a booming mining camp when mineralization at the Palmer Mine was located and worked during the 1890's. Several times over the years, the shaft was rehabilitated and deepened and drifts driven, but it appears that production was limited to a few tons.

In 1982 two samples were taken at the Palmer Mine. Sample ii0, from the dump, was composed of selected pieces of quartz float with copper oxide staining and assayed 0.8 oz gold per ton, 0.I oz silver per ton, 4.6 percent copper, and 0.08 percent tungsten. A chip sample (III) was taken at the north edge of the caved shaft across a 4.5-ft shear zone which has been altered to sericlte and clay with llmonlte and malachite staining. It assayed a trace of gold, 1.6 oz silver per ton, 2.1 percent copper, 0.35 percent lead, and 0.025 percent tungsten.

A trench approximately 330 ft north of the Palmer mine exposes a 2 ft quartz vein striking N. 10 @ W. and dipping 81 @ W. A chip sample across the vein (112), assayed 0.11 oz gold per ton, 0.I oz silver per ton, I percent copper and 0.04 percent tungsten. No other indication of metallization was Found.

There was claims of local historian that he obtained information from descendants of the last owners of the mine that the core drill sample returned very high gold hits in each of three holes drilled. However still could never raise the money to get the mine working. Which it appears always ran at a loss. Accident and flooding was the alleged causes of mining operating to cease. However descendants claimed there gold deep down. So another treasure legend also in itself amigos?

010416_2.jpg

So its hard to know who is correct? The descendants of the last company that owned the mine or the...

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR BUREAU OF MINES Mineral investigation of the Superstition Wilderness and Contiguous Rare II Further Planning Areas, Gila, Maricopa, and Pinal Counties, Arizona U.S. Bureau of Mines Mineral Land Assessment (MLA 136-82) 1982.

Both claims in some respects was little wanting in their methodology.

Kanacki
 

sdcfia

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Even so caution should be read into mining reports. Especially when Mining companies give Calculation of ore tonnage and grade from drill hole samples. There is a big difference between "known" and "inferred" grades per ton. in short calculation is made from 3 sample drill holes with the triangulation. "inferred" protects a mining company from being sued from investors if the known grade turns out to be much less.

For me and rest of the trio ours was not to reason why but to drill or die.:laughing7:

Calculation of ore content of ore tonnage and grade from drill hole samples are done by geologists and mining engineers and a dedicated assay department. Here is a much better explanation on how the values are calculated.

https://www.911metallurgist.com/blog/calculation-ore-tonnage-grade-drill-hole-samples

Crow

Take a look at the investor presentations for many/most mining companies, especially the numerous Canadian explorers who have targets all over eastern and western Canada, Mexico and South America. For their gold projects, they love to showcase high-grade intercepts from core drilling. These "examples" generally originate deep and fleeting (say, a few hundred meters down and a meter thick). The grades sound great, but when you take the time to examine all the results from the entire site's drill holes, you realize that even though the total reserve may be "proven" mathematically - even with the best of intentions and methods - there can be no guarantees.

Where do you search for more minerals? Your best bet is to look near to where they've been found before.
 

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Crow

Crow

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Take a look at the investor presentations for many/most mining companies, especially the numerous Canadian explorers who have targets all over eastern and western Canada, Mexico and South America. For their gold projects, they love to showcase high-grade intercepts from core drilling. These "examples" generally originate deep and fleeting (say, a few hundred meters down and a meter thick). The grades sound great, but when you take the time to examine all the results from the entire site's drill holes, you realize that even though the total reserve may be "proven" mathematically - even with the best of intentions and methods - there can be no guarantees.

Where do you search for more minerals? Your best bet is to look near to where they've been found before.

Yes that is Modus Opriendi of most mining exploration company's to use the track record of any existing mines or history past mines nearby as a selling point to help generate funds of further exploration of such mining tenements.


One thing I can guarantee you in the mining game nothing is ever 100% certain. There is always an element of risk albeit a calculated risk.

At the end of the day its the amount of means expended to recover such ores with enough margin to allow for commodity price fluctuations. Its a good time for gold and copper at present and silver as prices are up . So uneconomic mines of the past may be worth mining again providing they have viable resource to mine?

It would be interesting to see if some mining exploration company take up an exploration lease on the old gold claims just north of Gold field ghost town east of the bulldog mine and west of the Mammoth mine. North of the two north western trending faults. Perhaps some exploratory drilling?

bulldog mine.png

But I can see also much community resistance to any potential renewed mining activity?

Crow
 

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sdcfia

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... It would be interesting to see if some mining exploration company take up an exploration lease on the old gold claims just north of Gold field ghost town east of the bulldog mine and west of the Mammoth mine. North of the two north western trending faults. Perhaps some exploratory drilling?

But I can see also much community resistance to any potential renewed mining activity?

Crow

I have doubts about proposed AZ projects. IMO, safer US bets are in NV and ID. AK too, of course, but longer range time-wise. MX (silver) is on my front burner lately.
 

KANACKI

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Hola Crow Amigo

No one wants their property to be next door to a mine underground or open cut. Urban sprawl is virtually surrounding the old gold field on two sides. A tourist ghost town as well. Plus there would be contaminated ground water issues. It would be very had to get an investor to put money into a drilling project regardless of results would most likely not get planning permission to mine.

Kanacki
 

markmar

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While this is indeed a thread of superstition mountain legends in which we all know the Lost Dutchman legends and the Peralta legend dominate such legends of the superstitions.

There is another story that gets a little lost and forgotten. It can be argued that its not in superstition mountains but as the exact borders of what was known as superstitions some times have been ill defined. Some times the area is defined within the Superstition mining district.

That area is next to Superstition wilderness park. With a collective name of Goldfield. That for a time was a once productive goldfield.

Charles L Hall was already a successful businessman with numerous business when he came down from Denver Colorado and bought out the mining claims of 3 Mormon gold prospectors for the then absurd sum of 20 thousand dollars. What was then was to a little known gold strike found west of Superstitions.

Here is a picture of Charles and his wife below.

View attachment 1883534

A former underground Au-Ag-Mo-Mn-Cu mine that Charles hall and his business partner D Sullivan is located on 88 claims (1920) in sec. 1, T1N, R8E, about ¾ mile SE of Goldfield, 2 miles ESE of Saddle Rock, between the Superstition and Goldfield Mountains, 36 miles East of Phoenix, on private land.

Underground mining started the early 1890's and originally owned by C. Hall & D. Sullivan. Operating between 1893-1894, a lot of gold
mineralization is hosted in rhyolite.

View attachment 1883535

View attachment 1883536

The geological setting is a pediment floored by coarse-textured granite, indurated conglomerate and granite breccia. The principal workings are in the vicinity of 2 Northward-trending, steeply Westward-dipping faults that outcrop about 300 feet apart. Tertiary volcanic fields are adjacent to this mine, both NW & SE of the drainage where it is located.

Width below the 426 foot level ranges from 16-36 feet, all worked for the 1240 foot length.
Workings include at least three shafts. The main shaft was sunk to the 1000 foot level. Additionally, thousands of feet of drifts were driven. Workings overall totaled 377.95 meters in length and 304.8 meters in depth. One named working is the 'Mormon stope.'Named after the three Mormon prospectors that the mine was bought from.

As you can see from The Denver National bank accounts. The mine was very productive.

View attachment 1883537

However disaster struck in 1894 when a massive flood when buried workings and flooded the mine. Technology available at the time was unable to dewater the mine. In 1906 Charles L Halls son Died and Charles Hall died himself an old man in 1907. Thus his wife was left deal with a flooded mine. In the end Halls wife sold off the family assets and the Mammoth mine as it was called was sold.

The Young Mines Co., Ltd., headed by G.U. Young an ex employee of Hall, acquired the property in 1910 and spent about 15 years exploring it.Used massive steam pumps to dewater the mine. But hit the north west trending fault and could not locate the continuation of the lode. However he and other operators included Young Mines Co.; Goldfield Mines; E.L. Jones; E.H. Shumway; and Hebner & Funk tried in vain to find the direction of gold lode in Mormon stope with had hit one of the north west trending faults.

So the mystery was? Was there more gold beyond the north west trending fault?

As you can see below the mining area of goldfeild was in a collapsed caldera.

View attachment 1883538

And there is a theory that between the bulldog mine in west and the mammoth mine in east there is a continuation of the Mormon stope on the other side of north west trending fault.

Crow

Close to the west Superstition peak, are still hidden about 1 Million dollars in that type of ore. It's what was called " Al Senner's gold ".
Many have searched for this small treasure using Senner's map, but all were luckless. I wrote luckless because if someone don't know how to read a map, only blind luck can help him.
 

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Crow

Crow

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Gidday all

Interesting yarn but I am not 100% sure this Al Senner existed? Search what records I have at my disposal I found a an marriage registration from superior court house in archival records in Phoenix. But the microfiche is so blurry I cannot read anything? Helen Corbin's book states Al Senner came from West Virginia. In birth death and marriage census records predating Al Senners alleged time in Arizonia. There is no sign nor a family there by that name?

So can anyone be of assistance in more information? At present I cannot come to a definite conclusion anyway.

Crow
 

KANACKI

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Hola Amigo Crow

Rather inconclusive for now but perhaps some one with post some thing interesting?

Kanacki
 

SPARTANOC

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Gidday all

Interesting yarn but I am not 100% sure this Al Senner existed? Search what records I have at my disposal I found a an marriage registration from superior court house in archival records in Phoenix. But the microfiche is so blurry I cannot read anything? Helen Corbin's book states Al Senner came from West Virginia. In birth death and marriage census records predating Al Senners alleged time in Arizonia. There is no sign nor a family there by that name?

So can anyone be of assistance in more information? At present I cannot come to a definite conclusion anyway.

Crow

Crow

The whole Senner's Gold story is a fascinating one. Not sure why you feel - the story is an interesting yarn and that you're NOT 100% sure that Al even existed. I understand not being 100% sure, but no story out there is really 100% true nor are they 100% sure in their yarn's structure, which lays out the story. This particular story has way more reinforcement of details, along with several people that DID exist; deal with the outcome (finding Al's body) and writing a book (Helen). Hearing that Helen Corbin was driven to write about it, seems to give the story more credence than most of the SM lore(s)/legends that I've read about.

I'm actually in the "camp" of believing this story and it appears someone could follow Senner's old steps, as there are known routes he took and landmarks that narrow down his traversed location(s) he took to get to the top of Flatiron. There's even evidence of man being on top of that area - old camp locations/sites, horse trails, etc.

As for records that you've searched; I don't remember in the story of Senner ever being married OR devorced - as he never got to marry his sweetheart 'Katie' (Katherine or Catherine), which would produce the outcome you experienced in looking at Micro-phish film in the archives. Of course, you may or may not find birth records, but I don't rely too much on birth records, as those type of records didn't always get recorded in the first place, let alone having said records maintained. Is it possible that Al Senner's name was something different, sure. Is is possible that Al Senner's name really is Al Senner? Yep, a surety as well. As for death records, though there could be an error in recording the death of Al - there should be some type of record, recording the death since his body WAS found, but - whither that's on Micro-phish OR in a news paper remains to be seen/found. I would like to believe there's a record of his death somewhere due to his body being found. Again though, keeping records back then for citizens just wasn't as thorough as we would like them to be. I'm sure the authorities tried to maintain things conservatively, but as we all know - records if recorded were not always without error.

I do have to say though, I'm fascinated by the story, simply for the fact that there's a lot of info to it - as well as, I can map the routes taken by where the body was found, giving me an edge of actually finding something out there. All of this comparing to the LDM, which has never been found regardless of all the maps, books, and past searches made in the last 130 years or so.

Crow - were you able to obtain any other information regarding the story? I think I will pursue this one, but of course I seem to pursue all of them at one point or another. :laughing7:

-Spartanoc
 

deducer

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Crow

The whole Senner's Gold story is a fascinating one. Not sure why you feel - the story is an interesting yarn and that you're NOT 100% sure that Al even existed. I understand not being 100% sure, but no story out there is really 100% true nor are they 100% sure in their yarn's structure, which lays out the story. This particular story has way more reinforcement of details, along with several people that DID exist; deal with the outcome (finding Al's body) and writing a book (Helen). Hearing that Helen Corbin was driven to write about it, seems to give the story more credence than most of the SM lore(s)/legends that I've read about.

I'm actually in the "camp" of believing this story and it appears someone could follow Senner's old steps, as there are known routes he took and landmarks that narrow down his traversed location(s) he took to get to the top of Flatiron. There's even evidence of man being on top of that area - old camp locations/sites, horse trails, etc.

As for records that you've searched; I don't remember in the story of Senner ever being married OR devorced - as he never got to marry his sweetheart 'Katie' (Katherine or Catherine), which would produce the outcome you experienced in looking at Micro-phish film in the archives. Of course, you may or may not find birth records, but I don't rely too much on birth records, as those type of records didn't always get recorded in the first place, let alone having said records maintained. Is it possible that Al Senner's name was something different, sure. Is is possible that Al Senner's name really is Al Senner? Yep, a surety as well. As for death records, though there could be an error in recording the death of Al - there should be some type of record, recording the death since his body WAS found, but - whither that's on Micro-phish OR in a news paper remains to be seen/found. I would like to believe there's a record of his death somewhere due to his body being found. Again though, keeping records back then for citizens just wasn't as thorough as we would like them to be. I'm sure the authorities tried to maintain things conservatively, but as we all know - records if recorded were not always without error.

I do have to say though, I'm fascinated by the story, simply for the fact that there's a lot of info to it - as well as, I can map the routes taken by where the body was found, giving me an edge of actually finding something out there. All of this comparing to the LDM, which has never been found regardless of all the maps, books, and past searches made in the last 130 years or so.

Crow - were you able to obtain any other information regarding the story? I think I will pursue this one, but of course I seem to pursue all of them at one point or another. :laughing7:

-Spartanoc

Holy thread revival batman!
 

SPARTANOC

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Well, As of today, I have the Senner's Gold book written by Helen Corbin in my possession. I was able to locate it on Amazon of all places - at the affordable cost of $12.96 for a new copy (plus it arrived within 3 days of ordering). I still believe that this particular story is a sound one, having most of the elements of Truth in it. Since Al Senner actually existed, really did work on the Mammoth Mine, AND had been confronted by the authorities - who suspected Senner of theft; sets up authenticity based on real events rather than, a supposed story about a possible identified person, who might have lived in the area of said story.

I'll be diving into the book this weekend, and while I'm 'swimming' in my thoughts of 'hidden pouches of gold', I look forward to an expedition of proof and actually solve one of these many stories/legends of missing treasures.

Outside of the book and the knowledge I'm about to absorb; is there anything that any of you guys could add - that I might not get from Helen's book? I really do trust the earned knowledge that you all here have, being instilled within your library of experiences and I take your opinions with much trust.

-Spartanoc
Senner's Gold

 

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