COA business

[Sunny Side]

I hope someone out there that knows what the hell they are doing can step up to the plate and be an honest evaluator someday. There are so many Charlatans and so many people that “ think they know” what the heck they are doing. We are loosing so many old time collectors, the gentleman collectors in this hobby. I had a friend ask my opinion on a piece tonight that was 8 balled by a very popular authenticator. He forgot that I once owned it!! I know where it was found when it was found and I know for a fact it is real. People make mistakes but WOW!!

 

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[monsterrack]

A COA is just someone opinion, unless they have handled 1,000 of artifacts they are just guessing on their on experience. In my book Jim Bennett is the best, but for him to do a COA takes some time because he is super busy. An even he has to reach out to others sometimes.

 

[ToddsPoint]

Buy a stereo microscope and be your own authenticator. That's all you need for flint. Gary

 

[OntarioArch]

A COA is just someone opinion, unless they have handled 1,000 of artifacts they are just guessing on their on experience. In my book Jim Bennett is the best,

Yep. And Paul Frey at Raven's Relics.

 

[newnan man]

Tom Davis was great but I think he retired. Down here in Florida Carlos Tatum is the best. Jeff Baker COA's belong on a roll in the bathroom.

 

[Charl]

I don't think there are authentification papers that say "I guarantee this is authentic". Just about all say some version of "In my opinion....."

 

[uniface]

Davis, Frye, Tatum & Bennett are top eyeballers, IMO. As Jon Dickinson would be if he did papers for people.

If you want hard numbers backup, Brian Williard (Insight Laser Evaluation) is, in the opinion of many (myself included), the avocational-accessible Supreme Court. His OSL exam and a quick photos eyeballing put my Redstone point in the Illinois Fluted Point Database, FWIW.

 

[uniface]

Davis, Frye, Tatum & Bennett are top eyeballers, IMO. As Jon Dickinson would be if he did papers for people.

If you want hard numbers backup, Brian Williard (Insight Laser Evaluation) is, in the opinion of many (myself included), the avocational-accessible Supreme Court. His OSL exam and a quick photos eyeballing put my Redstone point in the Illinois Fluted Point Database, FWIW.

The limitation on that would be that he needs test scans of new material as a basis of comparison, and New England is pretty far afield from the central states region he's got an extensive database of.

 

[OntarioArch]

?.... As Jon Dickinson would be if he did papers for people...

Yep.

 

[arrow86]

My COA Is me finding them I never have purchased any

 

[Aurora1959]

What is an "OSL exam"?

 

[RustyRelics]

Paul is a great authenticator, and I've seen him in action before. Great guy. I've seen some fishy ones before with others, but nothing beats a Baker COA in ridiculousness. Take a look at ebay right now, and you'll see a bunch of fakes, all with coa's, and they have Bakers name on it.

 

[joshuaream]

If you want to have a $100,000 coin graded/certified by experts, it's going to cost you a couple hundred dollars and perhaps a 1% fee based on the value.

If you want Chinese porcelain authenticated and graded, you'd start around $1000 all in with TL testing, trace elemental analysis, someone with post graduate degrees detailing the dynasty that made it, etc. But you get documentation and a report based on science accepted by both collectors and academia.

Want to get a Rolex, or a diamond, or a gold bar certified, it can absolutely be done accurately, and you'll pay a decent amount for the service.

If you want a classic car vetted, I'm sure it would cost quite a bit to provide a detailed report of condition, restoration, repairs previously done, checking parts, etc.

But for absolutely unique, one off ancient Native American relics, collectors want to pay between $20 & $30 for a quick opinion, and they want that to basically absolve the seller and buyer of any responsibility in the transaction... That business model doesn't work.

Toddspoint was spot on, get a scope and learn your local flint, and be inclined not to buy something if you aren't sure, and fakes won't be a huge problem for you. For slate, just buy old, documented stuff that has been pictured a bunch of times before the 1980's. (Yes, fakes existed before the 80's but they have gotten a lot better and more prevalent since then.)

 

[Tnmountains]

Olympus microscopes start at just under $2000 for non-illuminated models and ranging from $4000 and higher for stereo zoom microscopes. Used models can be found for one-third the cost of a new microscope.

Thats a lot of money to spend but I guess if you buy artifacts it might be worth it. If you sell artifacts I guess you can explain to the buyer how it works.
Sorry for bold print it is a copy paste.

Looks like amscope is around 6-7 hundred This is a trinocular stereo microscope with a 144-LED compact ring light and a 8MP USB digital camera ...AmScope · Stereo · Digital · USB

 

[OntarioArch]

What is an "OSL exam"?

Here's a start: https://www.usu.edu/geo/luminlab/whatis.html

 

[fishstick]

If you want to have a $100,000 coin graded/certified by experts, it's going to cost you a couple hundred dollars and perhaps a 1% fee based on the value.

If you want Chinese porcelain authenticated and graded, you'd start around $1000 all in with TL testing, trace elemental analysis, someone with post graduate degrees detailing the dynasty that made it, etc. But you get documentation and a report based on science accepted by both collectors and academia.

Want to get a Rolex, or a diamond, or a gold bar certified, it can absolutely be done accurately, and you'll pay a decent amount for the service.

If you want a classic car vetted, I'm sure it would cost quite a bit to provide a detailed report of condition, restoration, repairs previously done, checking parts, etc.

But for absolutely unique, one off ancient Native American relics, collectors want to pay between $20 & $30 for a quick opinion, and they want that to basically absolve the seller and buyer of any responsibility in the transaction... That business model doesn't work.

Toddspoint was spot on, get a scope and learn your local flint, and be inclined not to buy something if you aren't sure, and fakes won't be a huge problem for you. For slate, just buy old, documented stuff that has been pictured a bunch of times before the 1980's. (Yes, fakes existed before the 80's but they have gotten a lot better and more prevalent since then.)

Spot on Josh!!!!

 

[joshuaream]

I've had a couple of different scopes over the years. One of my early ones was a used stereo dissecting scope that was around $100. There are some on eBay that would do the trick for about that price.

Edit, maybe $150 or so... the $100 one doesn't quite go up as high as you'd want.

 

[Kevin D]

If you want to have a $100,000 coin graded/certified by experts, it's going to cost you a couple hundred dollars and perhaps a 1% fee based on the value.

If you want Chinese porcelain authenticated and graded, you'd start around $1000 all in with TL testing, trace elemental analysis, someone with post graduate degrees detailing the dynasty that made it, etc. But you get documentation and a report based on science accepted by both collectors and academia.

Want to get a Rolex, or a diamond, or a gold bar certified, it can absolutely be done accurately, and you'll pay a decent amount for the service.

If you want a classic car vetted, I'm sure it would cost quite a bit to provide a detailed report of condition, restoration, repairs previously done, checking parts, etc.

But for absolutely unique, one off ancient Native American relics, collectors want to pay between $20 & $30 for a quick opinion, and they want that to basically absolve the seller and buyer of any responsibility in the transaction... That business model doesn't work.

Toddspoint was spot on, get a scope and learn your local flint, and be inclined not to buy something if you aren't sure, and fakes won't be a huge problem for you. For slate, just buy old, documented stuff that has been pictured a bunch of times before the 1980's. (Yes, fakes existed before the 80's but they have gotten a lot better and more prevalent since then.)

***And, i would only add a cautionary note to anyone who may be thinking that a TL test on their valuable ceramic piece may be necessary to determine age- IMO dont! the only certainty of any outcome in such a test would be the damage that was done to remove a test sample - exhaustive elemental study w/research support from a field of experts works best in this area and w/ no resultant damage in answering questions on age

 

[Sunny Side]

I have had the same microscope for 20 years or so. I use it quite often, but mostly as a learning tool. There are always new things to learn under magnification.

Some of the aforementioned COA people mentioned I am not familiar with and some I am.

I never understood why Bob Converse never offered paid opinions. More relics have passed through that mans hands than maybe even Davis. In his prime, Berner was the best I think. He knew his pipes which people have difficulty with, he knew his birdstones too. Berner and Jan Sorgenfrei both told me they thought slate and axes were the easiest and I would agree with this.

 

[joshuaream]

I never understood why Bob Converse never offered paid opinions. More relics have passed through that mans hands than maybe even Davis. In his prime, Berner was the best I think. He knew his pipes which people have difficulty with, he knew his birdstones too. Berner and Jan Sorgenfrei both told me they thought slate and axes were the easiest and I would agree with this.

I think he just decided to keep his hands clean from the mess. Aside from Berner and Stermer, I don't know any COA issuer that hasn't had an old COA come back on a piece that they probably shouldn't have papered the first time around. It goes back to the issue that when people buy large collections, they occasionally get a couple of fakes in there. And back in the day (pre internet) it was just easier to dump them at a small show or on unsuspecting collector who trusted them.

Slate I used to be really confident about, but now a days it's just easier to buy something that was in the Meuser collection and is published or buy something that is pictured in Ohio Slate types.