🥇 BANNER ~~Colonial Cellar Hole~~1775 "Liberty" Buckle~~

[johnnyblaze]

What is up Tnet

Just got my detector back from being fixed i snapped it in half a few weeks ago..

Got out to a cellar i had already been to but for some reason i had a feeling to go back

It was snowy and slushy but i ended up pulling this killer 1775 "Liberty" buckle and gave me the push to hit it hard.It was my first dig

I cannot find this particular buckle anywhere online but im sure its Revolutionary War related..I read something about a Albany regiment but no pics.So a positve ID is needed please..

Felt good to get out i also grabbed a childs toy pewter iron..Imagine that,this is what children played with

Colonial chape and a smoked like cheech and chong Largie..

Good luck out there

~Blaze~

 

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[DFW_THer]

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[CMDiamonddawg]

My first thought , it was home made by a talented silversmith .
Does your research indicate it pre dates 1776 US Independence Year ?
Was the buckle a limited production and not engraved by hand ?

imo it's a strange design for a belt fastener { two small tabs } staring at the pic and the break , if the soldier had a weight problem,

it is no wonder the piece was broken , jus sayin' still a Kool find without question JB.

dawg

 

[timekiller]

Very Cool Man,never seen nothing like it,I'd be happy with a find like that.Any thing marked dated from that time frame is cool no matter what it was.Just the fact it's date is marked takes away all the guessing from the time frame for the most part.
Take Care,
Pete,

 

[johnnyblaze]

My first thought , it was home made by a talented silversmith .
Does your research indicate it pre dates 1776 US Independence Year ?
Was the buckle a limited production and not engraved by hand ?

imo it's a strange design for a belt fastener { two small tabs } staring at the pic and the break , if the soldier had a weight problem,

it is no wonder the piece was broken , jus sayin' still a Kool find without question JB.

dawg

Thanks Dawg did you see this link from Devonrex?Cowan's Auctions: The Midwest's Most Trusted Auction House / Antiques / Fine Art / Art Appraisals

These were clearly made for a specific Regiment.

~Blaze~

 

[hbeaton]

Blaze,

Is it possible for you to tell whether there is an ampersand (&) before the world "Liberty" on your buckle/cartridge mount? If you notice on the example from Cowan's auction there is what appears to be an ampersand. If we are to assume the "I H" means something, maybe it has nothing to do with 1st Highlands or the specific regiment but maybe a phrase whereby the "I H" means two as of now unknown words and the last of it is "and Liberty". I'm stretching here but just trying to cover some alternate possibilities on IDing.

Another thing. I spent a not so insignificant amount of time trying to find out what this was prior to Devonrex's revelation. I must have looked at the a thousand images of 17th century buckles, 18th century buckles, rare old buckles, english/french buckles, slotted buckles, your moms buckles...you get the idea. And nothing seemed to have that smoking buckle quality to it. Buckle technology at that time did not have but so many options of being made otherwise the practical use of it kinda got lost if people got too wild in their construction of them.

With yours I was beginning to come to a quandary of..."is it really a buckle at all? or maybe a modified buckle perhaps?" For one, why the rounded bulge on the front? If it was simply a buckle, no other period examples for American made or otherwise looked anything like that. Ok, so maybe it was a one off by someone with some talent and then modified to have the word Liberty, etc. on it. Once Devonrex's example popped up...well we have at least two and they both seem to be military related so the cartridge mount possibility came into play. But if it was a cartridge mount, why the slots and loops on the back just to secure it to the leather or cloth pouch? Then the "I H" (which i never even looked at despite being right there the whole time, my mind just saw slots that obviously had to be for a buckle right?) had me scratching my head and the only thing I could think of is the I H is possibly linked with the word Liberty...or the 1775 year coupled with the firmament of the revolutionary time period saw people crying liberty everywhere and putting it on items like this.

One parting query and this if for my own edification, if this is a cartridge mount, and I have since looked at several other examples, where these pouches re-used over and over? If they were not, it seems kinda wasteful to have such a nice piece of brass simply to be discarded once the ammunition was removed from the pouch.

Apologies for the stream of research consciousness there but a very interesting find if we can.. buckle down and find the right answer. (sorry I couldn't help it

Congrats Blaze.

 

[Devonrex]

Cartridge Box Accouterments were used as a symbol to designate one's unit. They were mounted through the leather where on the backside a piece of leather was sewn through the loops or two holding it securely. The cartridge box was never discarded when the ammunition was emptied. New ammunition would simply be placed in it. As for the slots....... I too at first only saw the slits and thought of a web belt going through them. But if this was the case they would cover some of the engraving as they would have had to come under, over and through. That idea is more associated with shoulder slings which would have attached to the cartride box. When I finally saw the IH it hit me like a ton of bricks. It was right there the whole time! This is a cartridge box accouterment and an exciting find! Devonrex

 

[Valley Ranger]

Epic. Banner. Way to go!

 

[CRUSADER]

Blaze,

Is it possible for you to tell whether there is an ampersand (&) before the world "Liberty" on your buckle/cartridge mount? If you notice on the example from Cowan's auction there is what appears to be an ampersand. If we are to assume the "I H" means something, maybe it has nothing to do with 1st Highlands or the specific regiment but maybe a phrase whereby the "I H" means two as of now unknown words and the last of it is "and Liberty". I'm stretching here but just trying to cover some alternate possibilities on IDing.

Another thing. I spent a not so insignificant amount of time trying to find out what this was prior to Devonrex's revelation. I must have looked at the a thousand images of 17th century buckles, 18th century buckles, rare old buckles, english/french buckles, slotted buckles, your moms buckles...you get the idea. And nothing seemed to have that smoking buckle quality to it. Buckle technology at that time did not have but so many options of being made otherwise the practical use of it kinda got lost if people got too wild in their construction of them.

With yours I was beginning to come to a quandary of..."is it really a buckle at all? or maybe a modified buckle perhaps?" For one, why the rounded bulge on the front? If it was simply a buckle, no other period examples for American made or otherwise looked anything like that. Ok, so maybe it was a one off by someone with some talent and then modified to have the word Liberty, etc. on it. Once Devonrex's example popped up...well we have at least two and they both seem to be military related so the cartridge mount possibility came into play. But if it was a cartridge mount, why the slots and loops on the back just to secure it to the leather or cloth pouch? Then the "I H" (which i never even looked at despite being right there the whole time, my mind just saw slots that obviously had to be for a buckle right?) had me scratching my head and the only thing I could think of is the I H is possibly linked with the word Liberty...or the 1775 year coupled with the firmament of the revolutionary time period saw people crying liberty everywhere and putting it on items like this.

One parting query and this if for my own edification, if this is a cartridge mount, and I have since looked at several other examples, where these pouches re-used over and over? If they were not, it seems kinda wasteful to have such a nice piece of brass simply to be discarded once the ammunition was removed from the pouch.

Apologies for the stream of research consciousness there but a very interesting find if we can.. buckle down and find the right answer. (sorry I couldn't help it

Congrats Blaze.

This to crossed my mind, but the words are probable E.M & Liberty. The EM on both pieces can't be the initials of a person, & being that its a cartridge box plate, it must have been issued.

 

[Steve in PA]

Great hunt JB and the LIBERTY buckle or plate is absolutely amazing. The other half must be there somewhere. I am voting BANNER!

 

[joeyfresh]

This to crossed my mind, but the words are probable E.M & Liberty. The EM on both pieces can't be the initials of a person, & being that its a cartridge box plate, it must have been issued.

Cru, from past research of other items I've found there's a high occurrence of the initials IH. On the UKDFD there are quite a few buttons and weights with those initials. Probably just a coincidence but I was wondering if you noticed the same. I'll post examples when I get home.

IH probably doesn't have anything to do with JB's find and it just looks that way because of the design but I'm curious.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using TreasureNet

 

[screwynewy]

This to crossed my mind, but the words are probable E.M & Liberty. The EM on both pieces can't be the initials of a person, & being that its a cartridge box plate, it must have been issued.

It looks to me like JB's piece has an "L" at the top where the piece on the action site has an "E" This would leave open the possibility that they were the initials of the soldier wearing them. Unless of course the engraver forgot to finish the "E" which would be unlikely.

 

[CRUSADER]

It looks to me like JB's piece has an "L" at the top where the piece on the action site has an "E" This would leave open the possibility that they were the initials of the soldier wearing them. Unless of course the engraver forgot to finish the "E" which would be unlikely.

No, its worn, look closely, I can see the centre bar of the E & a little of the top.

 

[Showtime2385]

Very cool finds! Sight is also in amazing condition

 

[hbeaton]

I'm with screwynewy on this one. I don't see even a worn "E". I see a pretty good L.

But let's assume for as second we are wrong and Cru is right and that these are both "E M & Liberty" then we have atleast two examples and while we still don't know the meaning as of yet its a safer bet that JB's find is basically the same thing as the Cowan auction piece minus a third.

But if it's an "L" then screwy is right and what is more likely is the the same base cartridge mount with I H design and "& Liberty" with the only difference being the two letters which gives a nod to it being initials of the owner. If they both belonged to the same regiment, the initials + & Liberty would be a show of solidarity amongst patriots.

 

[mangum]

Congrats on a potentially groundbreaking relic. I saw this on Don's page & can't wait to hear the outcome.

 

[grasshopper]

Not only does the first initial look like an L to me (not an E), but the two "liberty" engravings are clearly different. This is a very interesting piece and I really hope we can find out some more about it!

 

[CRUSADER]

Not only does the first initial look like an L to me (not an E), but the two "liberty" engravings are clearly different. This is a very interesting piece and I really hope we can find out some more about it!

Hand engravings will always have differences. The E is there, ask the OP to look closely with a Mag.

 

[grasshopper]

Hand engravings will always have differences. The E is there, ask the OP to look closely with a Mag.

Only reason I pointed out the difference in the engraving is that there was speculation from the Facebook post mentioned earlier that this could be a fantasy piece from the 19th century. It seems more likely to me, at least, that it could be from 1775 due to the fact that they are hand engraved. At what point would they have used machine engraving as opposed to hand engraving?

 

[CRUSADER]

Only reason I pointed out the difference in the engraving is that there was speculation from the Facebook post mentioned earlier that this could be a fantasy piece from the 19th century. It seems more likely to me, at least, that it could be from 1775 due to the fact that they are hand engraved. At what point would they have used machine engraving as opposed to hand engraving?

Rather than when they crossed over to machines (which is sometime in the 19th C, in fact I seem to remember some machined 18th C stuff, but not that sure), its best to go down the hand writing 'style' route first. Its all a bit speculative, as any period we can hand engrave & we can copy any style of writing, but an expert might spot the small differences.
What worries me a little, is that it looks to be made of brass, which suggests a 19th C date. But I would like it to be 18th because the script looks convincing.

 

[johnnyblaze]

Thanks for the input everyone i really appreciate it

You can clearly see the same person engraved both buckles.Like Cru said by hand they will never be exact..This is absolutely positively a period piece in my opinion.I think the letters on top were the soldiers name..

~Blaze~