Dick Holmes clues

Matthew Roberts

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What are ALL of Dick Holmes clues?

nobodie,

The Dick Holmes clues can be found in the Brownie Holmes Manuscript written by Charles Kenison and Brownie Holmes in 1944. The clues are spread out through the manuscript in the part about Waltz deathbed confession to Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts.
Brownie however did not give away all the clues or things Waltz said on his deathbed. Several things remained private for obvious reasons.
 

Idahodutch

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What are ALL of Dick Holmes clues?
Good morning nobodie,

I personally believe that Holmes was given information, by Waltz, to use for locating Waltz? mine(s).

As far as I know, there were only a couple of things not passed along to us....
- What 1st and 2nd water referee to, in Waltz? time.
- how far after the military trail turns to the South, is the rock man.
- the secret directions given to Holmes, to apply once he locates Waltz? hidden camp in the canyon, below the viewing spot for Four Peaks.

There may be more, but those are the ones that come to mind.
I thought it curious that Dick?s son, Brownie felt that if he could locate the rock man, then he could have found it.
I personally don?t think Brownie had found the saddle or the view point for four peaks, because the rock man shows when to leave the trail..... to even get to the saddle, and view point.

Then he would have needed to locate the hidden camp after that.
Maybe I?m in the wrong spot, but it only to 12 years for me to locate what I think is the hidden camp, after going to the view spot to see four peaks looking like one peak.

I personally think that the earthquake of ~1888 caused enough loose debris, that once sufficient erosion had taken place, that the hidden camp became even more hidden. Not 100%, but almost.

I don?t think anybody got to see it the way Waltz left it.
 
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Doc4261

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nobodie,

The Dick Holmes clues can be found in the Brownie Holmes Manuscript written by Charles Kenison and Brownie Holmes in 1944. The clues are spread out through the manuscript in the part about Waltz deathbed confession to Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts.
Brownie however did not give away all the clues or things Waltz said on his deathbed. Several things remained private for obvious reasons.



Them private clues would be nice when I go out next to see if fits my area. But it is what it is. If someone knows them and would be kind enough to sharre them. PM them to me It would be appreciated. It will not change anything Im doing. Just a keep eyes open kinda thing. I go back down in Dec. 90 some days and counting. Smiles.
 

wrmickel1

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Them private clues would be nice when I go out next to see if fits my area. But it is what it is. If someone knows them and would be kind enough to sharre them. PM them to me It would be appreciated. It will not change anything Im doing. Just a keep eyes open kinda thing. I go back down in Dec. 90 some days and counting. Smiles.

The only problem with it is brownie never claimed to have wrote it.

Babymick1
 

Doc4261

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The only problem with it is brownie never claimed to have wrote it.

Babymick1

Would take it as something to keep eye open, nothing more. Though I think Brownie has some validity in my book.
Im following a map , but always have an open mind when out there for obvious reasons. Can find something you arnt even looking for. Like the other 2 maps ive solved on the way to my spot. PS the LDM isn't what I started looking for on my journey. If I find it its cuz its on the map I believe in.
 

Matthew Roberts

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The only problem with it is brownie never claimed to have wrote it.

Babymick1

It was Tom Kollenborn who claimed Brownie said he never wrote the manuscript.

That was false and Tom knew it.

In 1979 Tom and Monte Edwards taped an interview with Brownie in which Brownie clearly states he and Charles Kenison wrote the manuscript.

Tom later wrote in one of his books / articles that Brownie denied writing the manuscript. I asked Tom one time why he kept perpetuating that falsehood. He never gave me a straight answer.
 

wrmickel1

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It was Tom Kollenborn who claimed Brownie said he never wrote the manuscript.

That was false and Tom knew it.

In 1979 Tom and Monte Edwards taped an interview with Brownie in which Brownie clearly states he and Charles Kenison wrote the manuscript.

Tom later wrote in one of his books / articles that Brownie denied writing the manuscript. I asked Tom one time why he kept perpetuating that falsehood. He never gave me a straight answer.

Matthew

Because things changed by the 70's. A change of guard so to speak, alleged matchbox, affidavit and a manuscript all passed from Brownie to Clay. Now its all authentic. So why did Tom never give you a straight answer, You just read it.

Baby kick1
 

markmar

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The Holmes private clues, are not so difficult to understand for somebody if find the two room house ruin and knows the mine is about 200 feet across the gulch from there. Those clues are an alternative route than that which Waltz promted Holmes to follow in regards to reach the top of the low ridge.
IMO, those private clues have been " leaked " in some way along the years, but somebody have to know to distinguish them from the original Waltz's clues.
IMHO, they are useless if follow the same route that leads you to the top of the low ridge. It's a longer way, but is a safest route which keep you away from troubles if you are " thirsty " for adventure.
 
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Idahodutch

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The Holmes private clues, are not so difficult to understand for somebody if find the two room house ruin and knows the mine is about 200 feet across the gulch from there. Those clues are an alternative route than that which Waltz promted Holmes to follow in regards to reach the top of the low ridge.
IMO, those private clues have been " leaked " in some way along the years, but somebody have to know to distinguish them from the original Waltz's clues.
IMHO, they are useless if follow the same route that leads you to the top of the low ridge. It's a longer way, but is a safest route which keep you away of troubles if you are " thirsty " for adventure.

Good morning Markmar,
I have been of the impression that the secret clues for Holmes are for application after finding the hidden camp.
That since the ?not more than 200? directly across the canyon? between the mine and the hidden camp, was already published in Bicknell?s 1895 article. I?m sure that Dick Holmes, and later Brownie, we?re fully aware of Bicknell?s article.
I believe the secret clues are to find the upper inclined shaft, up near the low ridge (the old Peralta mine).
It is clear Waltz was directing Julia to the outcrop mine (the LDM).

It?s only my opinion, but I think Waltz gave different final instructions.... one for each mine.
Besides, he already gave the cache atop of the outcrop mine to Julia, so told Holmes how to locate the shaft mine above.

We need to remember that Waltz was desperate to relay the locations to Julia and then to Holmes.
 

Matthew Roberts

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nobodie,

Here are the directions Waltz gave to Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts, word for word, no additions, no deletions, no interpretations.

" Go to first water, then to second water, then take the old government trail to San Carlos. Where the trail turns south you will see over the point of a ridge a rock standing in the brush that looks like a man. This is where I always leave the trail. Go to the left of the trail and follow up the long ridge and you will come to a saddle. In this saddle is a round Indian ruin of rocks. Go through this saddle and on up a low ridge, and when you get to the highest point of the ridge you can look north and the four peaks are lined up to look as one peak. In the other direction you will see a high needle. In the canyon under you is my hidden camp. You cant get down there because its too steep, go to the mouth of the canyon and then back. You can find the rock house with very little difficulty. You won't be able to see it until you are right up on it. After you find the camp then come back out of the canyon. (Here Waltz gave a direction to the mine that Holmes and Roberts kept secret). You will never be able to find the mine until you first find the rock house as the opening is completely hidden. A prospector won't find it because there is no ledge in view. In the mine you will find about $75,000 dollars in gold ore already dug out. I dug the outcropping away and covered all signs of my digging."


Anything else you have read or heard came from someone else and cannot be 100 % relied upon. If you are relying on clues or statements other than what you see here, you are following some bad information you got from someone or some Dutchman book.

Matthew
 

Idahodutch

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nobodie,

Here are the directions Waltz gave to Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts, word for word, no additions, no deletions, no interpretations.

" Go to first water, then to second water, then take the old government trail to San Carlos. Where the trail turns south you will see over the point of a ridge a rock standing in the brush that looks like a man. This is where I always leave the trail. Go to the left of the trail and follow up the long ridge and you will come to a saddle. In this saddle is a round Indian ruin of rocks. Go through this saddle and on up a low ridge, and when you get to the highest point of the ridge you can look north and the four peaks are lined up to look as one peak. In the other direction you will see a high needle. In the canyon under you is my hidden camp. You cant get down there because its too steep, go to the mouth of the canyon and then back. You can find the rock house with very little difficulty. You won't be able to see it until you are right up on it. After you find the camp then come back out of the canyon. (Here Waltz gave a direction to the mine that Holmes and Roberts kept secret). You will never be able to find the mine until you first find the rock house as the opening is completely hidden. A prospector won't find it because there is no ledge in view. In the mine you will find about $75,000 dollars in gold ore already dug out. I dug the outcropping away and covered all signs of my digging."


Anything else you have read or heard came from someone else and cannot be 100 % relied upon. If you are relying on clues or statements other than what you see here, you are following some bad information you got from someone or some Dutchman book.

Matthew

Matthew,
The last statement you make about what can be relied upon.... sounds a little short sighted in my opinion.
A recording of the deathbed would be about as close to 100% reliable one could get, and this is not even that :)

It comes across as bias, and I don’t know if that was your intent?
A lot of good folk have done some fantastic research, that has sorted out things ...
Julia’s account should not be disregarded ....

Is any of it 100% reliable?

Maybe one day we will find out, maybe not.
Idahodutch
 

azdave35

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Matthew,
The last statement you make about what can be relied upon.... sounds a little short sighted in my opinion.
A recording of the deathbed would be about as close to 100% reliable one could get, and this is not even that :)

It comes across as bias, and I don’t know if that was your intent?
A lot of good folk have done some fantastic research, that has sorted out things ...
Julia’s account should not be disregarded ....

Is any of it 100% reliable?

Maybe one day we will find out, maybe not.
Idahodutch
dutch...none of those clues ever led anyone to the mine including dick or brownie.......i would take any of them with a grain of salt
 

Matthew Roberts

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Matthew,
The last statement you make about what can be relied upon.... sounds a little short sighted in my opinion.
A recording of the deathbed would be about as close to 100% reliable one could get, and this is not even that :)

It comes across as bias, and I don’t know if that was your intent?
A lot of good folk have done some fantastic research, that has sorted out things ...
Julia’s account should not be disregarded ....

Is any of it 100% reliable?

Maybe one day we will find out, maybe not.
Idahodutch

Idahodutch,

Holmes and Roberts wrote down everything they remembered Waltz saying and that is what was recorded. There were no tape recorders in 1891, sorry.

You are welcome to believe anything anyone tells you or anything you read in the hundreds of Dutchman books. It makes no difference to me. I merely answered nobodies specific question on what were ALL the Dick Holmes clues.

I have my own ideas on the mine based on my own experience and research and are just my personal opinion.
 

Idahodutch

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Matthew,
My eyebrow lifted when you stated anything else other than Holmes Manuscript, cannot be relied upon.
Just was giving comment is all.

Idahodutch
 

Idahodutch

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dutch...none of those clues ever led anyone to the mine including dick or brownie.......i would take any of them with a grain of salt

Dave,
I think the riff between Dick and Julia over the candle box ore, is a big part of why Dick or Brownie didn?t find the mine.

Using both sets of directions, actually makes a big difference, as to where you end up.
If using both is correct way to go, then the 5 mile diameter comes into play.
Wasn?t the Holmes camp search area up around Peters Mesa?
Seems like there is conflict, with just applying the first clue..... if Peters Mesa has to be the area.

I get that folk have good reason to look where they look. Why else look? :)
 

Matthew Roberts

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One cannot escape the fact that the things Holmes and Roberts wrote down after Waltz death are the ONLY first hand directions and clues that came directly from Waltz.

Everything else is second, third and fourth hand information.
Julia recorded nothing. Rhiney recorded nothing. Hermann and Gottfreid recorded nothing. They were all interviewed later and Sims Elys book on Julia is packed with easily checked historical inacuracies. Bicknell articles the same, easily checked inaccuracies.

I'm not saying everything else is inaccurate and lies. Im saying if you want the closest thing to Waltz and what he actually said you have to use the Holmes, Roberts account.

There is something that Rhinehart related to Hilda Steinegger-Kramer at the 1933 Pioneer reunion in Phoenix that I believe is 100% accurate even if it is 3rd hand,... Waltz to Rhinehart to Hilda.

Hilda recorded it on paper that day. Also present at that meeting was Hildas mother, Caroline Thomas Steinegger and Rebecca Cavaness, Mrs. Abraham H. Peeples.
 
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Idahodutch

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I thought Herman was frustrated with Rhiney .... over his ability to recall details, from things Waltz said.
I?m not trying to pick a fight. I actually agree with most of your post.
Bicknell?s articles definitely differ between the two articles I read, but the 2nd one in 1895, sounds like (to me) he is relating Julia?s account.
Because one of the articles is not Julia?s account, but Bicknell?s opinions, does not mean they both are.

Waltz spent s lot of time with Julia, trying to get her to remember the directions (clues).
I wonder how many times he would have her repeat the directions back ..... every so often, adding a bit more.
She did pretty good until couldn?t remember if you turn East or west, as you get to the end..... but apparently no problem with the stuff prior to that.....

You are right Matthew, we all believe what we each thinks is how it is.
I?m ok with that. :)

Idahodutch
 

wrmickel1

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Matthew

I believe Julia and company added more then any other person of the time, They did follow a trail and entered the range from the south. They did camp at the base of superstition mountain. So anything south of there is void. Then they went to weavers needle stop and turned around so anything further east of weavers is void. So south and east are out of the game. So that would put Feldman's theory in the trash bin.
So all that's left is north and west of the two points. Which puts me at a place where Joe said Ruth died at Its were the priest stands on the stone maps. A very interesting place with a trick in the trail.

Babymick1
 

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