DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

sdcfia

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This is from Barry Fell's book, America B.C. The Mimbres were SW New Mexico natives until they disappeared about 1150 AD.

mimbres art.jpg
 

dougachim

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I've read SOMEWHERE (?) that the gold bars,etc., coming out of Caballo & Victorio Peak was of the same make, as the Gold that came out of Santa Rita mines/possibly the Cooke Peak area/Mimbres, that the SPANISH mined. I believe there was a LOT of Spanish acitivity around the Gila's & Silver City, mostly to the West of the Rio Grande.(not all) The History around Mogollon Area is filled with Spanish Mining lore & Beyond
Silver and copper mined around Santa Rita and Silver City.
 

sdcfia

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They didn't disappear, they broke up the big pueblos and went back to extended family housing.
Nope, not the Mimbrenos. Gone. Migrated out, destination unknown. Same with Chaco Canyon. No cliff dwellings, no multi-room structures, not even a pit house remained occupied. It's all supposedly linked to climate change, although the big pueblos further north in NM and west in AZ remained intact and are still occupied today. Not long after the Mimbrenos departed, the Apache gradually began taking southern NM and were intact when the Spanish arrived in in the 1500s.
 

dougachim

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Copper and gold in the early days, definitely yes. Very little, if any silver until the Anglos in the later 1
Nope, not the Mimbrenos. Gone. Migrated out, destination unknown. Same with Chaco Canyon. No cliff dwellings, no multi-room structures, not even a pit house remained occupied. It's all supposedly linked to climate change, although the big pueblos further north in NM and west in AZ remained intact and are still occupied today. Not long after the Mimbrenos departed, the Apache gradually began taking southern NM and were intact when the Spanish arrived in in the 1500s.
Nope, they went back to extended family housing most went south into what is now Chihuahua. There is a paper being worked on now that might shed some light.
 

sdcfia

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Dougachim: "Nope, they went back to extended family housing most went south into what is now Chihuahua. There is a paper being worked on now that might shed some light."

Well yes, they had to go somewhere, and somewhere south was arguably their best choice. Some say Casa Grandes, but who knows for sure?

My point in Post #3424 is that they abandoned their homeland, the Mimbres Valley, en masse, sometime ca mid 12th century.
 

sdcfia

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The didn't move all that much.
Point is, they moved out - phht! - and never came back. Pointyheads say the population density in today's Grant and Luna Counties was greater during the height of the Mimbreno culture than it is today. Judging by the extreme number of small and medium sized ruins everywhere you look, these geniuses might be .

So why the exodus? Climate? Apaches? Something else? The climate and its changes ain't that much different in Casas Grandes than San Lorenzo - at least not better enough to cause the migration, IMO. Maybe they all went to Tenochtitlan and became Aztecs.

With the remarkable advances in DNA genealogy research the past 10 years revealing a clearer and surprising history of humans on earth, maybe we'll someday know more about not only where the Mimbrenos went, but also where they came from.
 

dougachim

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Point is, they moved out - phht! - and never came back. Pointyheads say the population density in today's Grant and Luna Counties was greater during the height of the Mimbreno culture than it is today. Judging by the extreme number of small and medium sized ruins everywhere you look, these geniuses might be .

So why the exodus? Climate? Apaches? Something else? The climate and its changes ain't that much different in Casas Grandes than San Lorenzo - at least not better enough to cause the migration, IMO. Maybe they all went to Tenochtitlan and became Aztecs.

With the remarkable advances in DNA genealogy research the past 10 years revealing a clearer and surprising history of humans on earth, maybe we'll someday know more about not only where the Mimbrenos went, but also where they came from.
I am working with my buddies at Harvard getting dna samples to see where the Mimbres went. the china virus scam set it back 3 years but it is going again. I have a c-note that the Mimbres stayed around their homelands. Some went to Paquime but the rest just stopped living in giant pueblos that took too much work to maintain and went back to extended family living. There is also a study to see where all the Mimbres pottery found in Chihuahua was made there or imported, another c-note that most ws made in Chihuahua. Look at the Mogollon timeline Mimbres is a phase of the Mogollon the phases after the Mimbres live from NW Chihuahua, Arizona, far west Texas, and the bottom half of New Mexico. I also believe the Casas Grandes peoples were Mogollon.` I am guessing the country gets shut down again this fall so no telling when the studies will be finished to see who is correct.
 

sdcfia

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I am working with my buddies at Harvard getting dna samples to see where the Mimbres went. the china virus scam set it back 3 years but it is going again. I have a c-note that the Mimbres stayed around their homelands. Some went to Paquime but the rest just stopped living in giant pueblos that took too much work to maintain and went back to extended family living. There is also a study to see where all the Mimbres pottery found in Chihuahua was made there or imported, another c-note that most ws made in Chihuahua. Look at the Mogollon timeline Mimbres is a phase of the Mogollon the phases after the Mimbres live from NW Chihuahua, Arizona, far west Texas, and the bottom half of New Mexico. I also believe the Casas Grandes peoples were Mogollon.` I am guessing the country gets shut down again this fall so no telling when the studies will be finished to see who is correct.
Interesting post. Some of the Mogollon branches tended toward larger villages, but the Mimbres ruins are almost all pithouses and less-than-a-dozen-room structures. When you compare the Mimbres and Paquime timelines, it's a good bet that over time the demise of the former likely contributed to the building of the latter.

It would be my working model that the Mimbrenos may have abandoned their NM digs for security reasons. The Apaches began entering the territory about the same time. We know what they were like. I would speculate that the migration and resettling in MX resulted in larger villages and bigger structures, not the other way around. It would be easier for larger groups to defend what they had, in contrast to what they were used to in the Mimbres Valley and environs.

Re your pals' project and more shutdowns, I wonder how long the people will continue to put up with the crime ring that owns this country.
 
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autofull

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there is a picture of doc with a large rock in the bed of a truck, on the rock is a very crude cross, have you ever heard of pedro navarez, or however it may be spelled today, the soldier turned bandit. mrs. noss talked about digging at an old dried up waterfall. go read on this pedro guy, ya might change yer mind where all the loot and other stuff came from that doc possesed..
 

dougachim

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there is a picture of doc with a large rock in the bed of a truck, on the rock is a very crude cross, have you ever heard of pedro navarez, or however it may be spelled today, the soldier turned bandit. mrs. noss talked about digging at an old dried up waterfall. go read on this pedro guy, ya might change yer mind where all the loot and other stuff came from that doc possesed..
The people who Pedro Navarez robbed did have gold bars.
 

sdcfia

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Any good reads on Pedro Navarez?

It's time here to remind folks of some proven facts. Facts are nasty problems when it comes to treasure legends, but what do you prefer to believe - the treasure magazines or your own lyin' eyes?

There are many versions of the famous El Chato gallows confession directing searchers to the Caballo Mountains where he allegedly hid his bandit loot. I don't know when and by whom this waybill was first cooked up, but all of them are fraudulent copies of each other.

The authentic man, Pedro Navarez ("El Chato"), was was a noted and well-documented bandit active in Chihuahua, Mexico, in the early 1800's, not in the 1600's. Much folklore surrounds his memory as a Robin Hood-type character who cached robbery proceeds all over the Satevo-Parral-Delicias country south of Chihuahua city. Reports of his death are highly romanticized in Mexico, but the waybills to his treasures were apparently disclosed by his daughter in the 1840s and consisted mainly of coins buried in clay pots on several ranches. There is little reason to believe he was ever in New Mexico, where the pickings for roadside bandits were very slim along the Rio Grande, especially compared to the riches available in Chihuahua at the time. Somebody stole El Chato's life story and tried to apply it to New Mexico, where nobody knew the truth. Here, read about him for yourself:

La leyenda siempre viva del Chato Nevárez

Suspenso y Terror de Chihuahua

There's plenty more you can find on your own - if you care about the truth, that is.

By the way, speaking of facts, the 1650 El Chato waybill directs one to the "Caballo Mountains", north of El Paso on the Rio Grande. But did you know that those mountains were named by Zebulon Pike during the winter of 1806-07? Before that, on an 1804 map, the range was called "Las Peneulas". Before that, in 1771, they were known as "Sierra el Perillo." If someone's going to dream up a good treasure story, it's a good idea for him to check the facts before he starts.
 

autofull

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well, he told them he stole it from missons, mule trains and storage sites. read up on him, he was said to have had quite a ten year rampage. looks to me like mr. noss put two and two together when he found the rock with the crude cross on it and the waterfall. he really did let someone, most likely his wife take a picture of the rock in the bed of his pickup truck. read up on him.
 

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