FROM THE MOUTH OF THE MINE?

nobodie

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Was it from the (MOUTH) of the mine that JW could see the military trail below?
What kind of tree was at or near the mouth?
Did JW say that you could be 20 feet away and not see the mine?
 

Gare

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I don't think it was very clear where Jacob was when he said he could see the military trail
 
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nobodie

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Gare, thank you for your reply. You maybe right. I was hoping that someone knew the answers to my 3 questions..
 

Idahodutch

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Was it from the (MOUTH) of the mine that JW could see the military trail below?
What kind of tree was at or near the mouth?
Did JW say that you could be 20 feet away and not see the mine?
Good morning nobody,
1. I do not recall the word “mouth“ being used …
2. I don’t know about Waltz planting a tree….
3. I don’t remember if he actually said 20’, but he did say you could be right there and not find it.

The question I didn’t see on your list was which of the 2 mines was he referencing?

One mine was naturally concealed, and the other one, he first sealed up with logs and stuff, then covered over the whole thing so no trace was left of them being there.

Idahodutch
 

Wyatt_DH

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The stories I have heard only ever say "the military trail could be seen from my mine, but my mine cannot be seen from the military trail". I have read that there are three pines at the base of the same canyon the mine is located in, however I do not believe any distances were given or anything like that. The 20' part I haven't ever heard, but since he covered it up I would imagine that's the case now anyway. I do think the three pines could be accurate, though where there are pines other than the Eastern Supes is beyond me. I always thought it would be further East anyway, since Pinto creek was full of placer gold back in the day, and now it's a 1200' deep open pit mine, the Pinto Valley Mine, that's still in operation today. Gold was discovered out there in 1881, but its first commercial production year was not until 1906. Who knows what happened over there the years before all that. Jose Perez, Peter Moraga, and Joe Modock all found gold in that area, and one claimed to have found the Dutchman itself, though Tom Kollenborn disproved this in the 1980's when he went out there with Larry Hedrick and others trying to find the 'Cave of 1000 Eyes'. Some others believe it's in the western supes, I have just never seen how that could be possible unless it was a cache rather than a mine. Hewitt canyon is still my number one guess as to where it would be, too much red out there and caves/cliffs. It would take years to investigate all the features there, no other canyon is quite like it in the superstitions. Most of the cliffs where caves/mines are, are not accessible without walking up steep approaches to them sometimes bigger than 100% grade(arguably some lower class climbing, ropes are not needed but could come in handy). Not to mention that same road leads up to Rogers Trough and Canyon, where there are dwellings in caves, petroglyphs, pine trees, a horses head and Jesuit carved from stone, etc.
 

markmar

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Was it from the (MOUTH) of the mine that JW could see the military trail below?
What kind of tree was at or near the mouth?
Did JW say that you could be 20 feet away and not see the mine?
Waltz said " from my mine ", but if you take in consideration there is a shelf at the lip of a cliff with no much space around, then IMO it's safe to say " from the mouth of the mine ". Also, when Waltz said " from my mine " , he meant the mine which he opened by himself from a gold outcrop, and not the inclined shaft which was an abandoned mine opened by others.
This mine can be approached only from the side ( from the right looking to the Military Trail ) because the difficulties of the terrain which are surrounding the spot. Also to approach the mine, someone have to go through a narrow pass between some big boulders until see a rock with a cross carved on it ( a Jesuit marking but for Waltz a grave ). Beyond that cross is the mine. Waltz planted a Juniper in front of the cross marking in regards to hide the mine and the cross from those who would come from the narrow pass to the shelf. So, looking to the Military Trail, the Juniper it's few feet to the right from the mine which also it's covered in the way Waltz described.
IMO, 20 feet away it's too much if you consider the mine it's hidden by the Juniper and the narrow pass. So, you can see the mine only if you are upon it.

Just my two cents for 15 minutes of glory.
 
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Idahodutch

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Waltz said " from my mine ", but if you take in consideration there is a shelf at the lip of a cliff with no much space around, then IMO it's safe to say " from the mouth of the mine ". Also, when Waltz said " from my mine " , he meant the mine which he opened by himself from a gold outcrop, and not the inclined shaft which was an abandoned mine opened by others.
This mine can be approached only from the side ( from the right looking to the Military Trail ) because the difficulties of the terrain which are surrounding the spot. Also to approach the mine, someone have to go through a narrow pass between some big boulders until see a rock with a cross carved on it ( a Jesuit marking but for Waltz a grave ). Beyond that cross is the mine. Waltz planted a Juniper in front of the cross marking in regards to hide the mine and the cross from those who would come from the narrow pass to the shelf. So, looking to the Military Trail, the Juniper it's few feet to the right from the mine which also it's covered in the way Waltz described.
IMO, 20 feet away it's too much if you consider the mine it's hidden by the Juniper and the narrow pass. So, you can see the mine only if you are upon it.

Just my two cents for 15 minutes of glory.
Hi markmar,
In reading your post, there are some things stated as if Waltz actually said it, so I wanted to ask you about it.
In your very first statement, you talk of a shelf at the lip of a cliff, without much space around ….. I don’t recall Waltz saying anything about that description. This is being offered up by you, as something that “IS”, but no clue reference is offered to match it up with.
I have read that the sealing up of the mine, because it was on a very steep slope, that Waltz put the logs in at an angle to match the slope.
These two descriptions seem to be incompatible with each other.
The inclined shaft up above, you state was abandoned.
The story I read indicate years of work, on a series of trips, for the making of the inclined shaft. The Apache account is that it was just started at the time of the 1847 massacre. According to Waltz, it was being actively worked the very day Waltz and his partner showed up.
I do not agree that the mine was abandoned, until Waltz abandoned it in favor of the gold outcrop down below that you state is on a shelf on the lip of a cliff.
I think mixing stuff just confounds things.
I know you are actually giving descriptions of your spot of interest, but the descriptions don’t match up, with what Waltz said. Not even it being abandoned by others.

There is no glory in presenting things falsely.
Just my 2 cents. 🤓

Idahodutch
 

markmar

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Hi markmar,
In reading your post, there are some things stated as if Waltz actually said it, so I wanted to ask you about it.
In your very first statement, you talk of a shelf at the lip of a cliff, without much space around ….. I don’t recall Waltz saying anything about that description. This is being offered up by you, as something that “IS”, but no clue reference is offered to match it up with.
I have read that the sealing up of the mine, because it was on a very steep slope, that Waltz put the logs in at an angle to match the slope.
These two descriptions seem to be incompatible with each other.
The inclined shaft up above, you state was abandoned.
The story I read indicate years of work, on a series of trips, for the making of the inclined shaft. The Apache account is that it was just started at the time of the 1847 massacre. According to Waltz, it was being actively worked the very day Waltz and his partner showed up.
I do not agree that the mine was abandoned, until Waltz abandoned it in favor of the gold outcrop down below that you state is on a shelf on the lip of a cliff.
I think mixing stuff just confounds things.
I know you are actually giving descriptions of your spot of interest, but the descriptions don’t match up, with what Waltz said. Not even it being abandoned by others.

There is no glory in presenting things falsely.
Just my 2 cents. 🤓

Idahodutch
Ha ha ha, there exist more clues than that about the Four Peaks, which it's the only matching to your site of interest. For example:
- The mine is located in a ravine on the side of a canyon wall. (Conatser)
- In a steep climbing arroyo high on a mountainside. (Morrow)
- Waltz mine is on a twelve foot high shelf. (Synbad)
etc.

So tell me now, there was much space around the mine on a twelwe foot shelf ( at the mine's spot because that shelf has various width dimensions ) which is located on a canyon wall? What difference would make if someone would say " from my mine " or " from the mouth of my mine "? None, IMHO. So here the detail doesn't make the difference.
And yes, the inclined shaft was abandoned by its owner and all the others who worked it clandestine have not any rights on it. So, if you will find a rich mine on a private property ( land grant in this case ) and you work it clandestine, you can become rich but always from an abandoned mine if there are not fresh signs around of someone who owned the region. Would been a claim jump and trespassing before the US gov. rejected the ownership of that land grant in a parody trial. Also for your info, the inclined shaft was not started in 1847 but about one hundred years before by the first Peraltas who came to the Superstitions. The generation of the 1847 was the grandchildren of the first Peraltas who searched the Superstitions for the King's fifth. This was the purpose of the land grant.

The OP didn't asked about the terrain at the mine site if was steep or flat, so i didn't write anything about this.

And I have not a spot of interest. To me are all the same and I just tell the things like they realy are. What to you seems false to others seems accurate, so the glory goes to who knows the truth.

Just my two pennies
 
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Idahodutch

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Ha ha ha, there exist more clues than that about the Four Peaks, which it's the only matching to your site of interest. For example:
- The mine is located in a ravine on the side of a canyon wall. (Conatser)
- In a steep climbing arroyo high on a mountainside. (Morrow)
- Waltz mine is on a twelve foot high shelf. (Synbad)
etc.

So tell me now, there was much space around the mine on a twelwe foot shelf ( at the mine's spot because that shelf has various width dimensions ) which is located on a canyon wall? What difference would make if someone would say " from my mine " or " from the mouth of my mine "? None, IMHO. So here the detail doesn't make the difference.
And yes, the inclined shaft was abandoned by its owner and all the others who worked it clandestine have not any rights on it. So, if you will find a rich mine on a private property ( land grant in this case ) and you work it clandestine, you can become rich but always from an abandoned mine if there are not fresh signs around of someone who owned the region. Would been a claim jump and trespassing before the US gov. rejected the ownership of that land grant in a parody trial. Also for your info, the inclined shaft was not started in 1847 but about one hundred years before by the first Peraltas who came to the Superstitions. The generation of the 1847 was the grandchildren of the first Peraltas who searched the Superstitions for the King's fifth. This was the purpose of the land grant.

The OP didn't asked about the terrain at the mine site if was steep or flat, so i didn't write anything about this.

And I have not a spot of interest. To me are all the same and I just tell the things like they realy are. What to you seems false to others seems accurate, so the glory goes to who knows the truth.

Just my two pennies
All that, yet you ignored the “shelf at the lip of a cliff”
Statement, that as far as I know, has never been a clue from Waltz.

The clues you do mention from various folk; are you trying to say they found the LDM?
I think you made a bad post, and are trying to redirect and change the subject.
Just admit the shelf on the lip of the cliff thing, is a clue from markmar, not waltz.

The “abandoned by others” statement is at best misleading.
If your house caught fire, and you fled for safety …. Is that abandoned?
No, because you, or the new owner might return. As it turns out, in this case, the new owner did return…. JW

Until next time, have a good one 👍
Idahodutch
 

markmar

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All that, yet you ignored the “shelf at the lip of a cliff”
Statement, that as far as I know, has never been a clue from Waltz.

The clues you do mention from various folk; are you trying to say they found the LDM?
I think you made a bad post, and are trying to redirect and change the subject.
Just admit the shelf on the lip of the cliff thing, is a clue from markmar, not waltz.

The “abandoned by others” statement is at best misleading.
If your house caught fire, and you fled for safety …. Is that abandoned?
No, because you, or the new owner might return. As it turns out, in this case, the new owner did return…. JW

Until next time, have a good one 👍
Idahodutch
I believe you didn't pay attention when you have read my previous post. You distort what I have wrote maybe with a purpose to make me look wrong. The truth is the truth, no matter who will tell it.
Maybe is time for you to go by the clues wrote by few old book writers who have had the clues almost from the " horse mouth ", instead arguing for another hundred years supporting your own theory. The " lip of a cliff " clue it's written in one of these books, so not my invention like yours which says " if you see one of the Four Peaks it's like you see the Four Peaks as one ". If Holmes would be living now he would say: " What? "
 

Idahodutch

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I saw precisely what you wrote…
You say we have to consider the clue I questioned.
Have to ….. as if it came from Waltz.
Your advice to abandon main stream clues in favor of books with ALMOST first hand info, like you have done ……. nonsense in my opinion.
Just like that clue that you say is in some book … 😂😂🤣

Bick’s, and Holmes, are good. If you cared about the LDM, rather than change meanings of clues as you see fit, you would recognize the clues as they surfaced. Instead you bash …. the 4 peaks clue most of all. I think it’s because you don’t have a way around that one. 😂😂👍

If Holmes or Waltz were here, they’d probably laugh at both of us 😂😂.
The time for your honoring of yourself, is only in your own mind.

👍 nice chat.
 
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Doc4261

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Waltz said " from my mine ", but if you take in consideration there is a shelf at the lip of a cliff with no much space around, then IMO it's safe to say " from the mouth of the mine ". Also, when Waltz said " from my mine " , he meant the mine which he opened by himself from a gold outcrop, and not the inclined shaft which was an abandoned mine opened by others.
This mine can be approached only from the side ( from the right looking to the Military Trail ) because the difficulties of the terrain which are surrounding the spot. Also to approach the mine, someone have to go through a narrow pass between some big boulders until see a rock with a cross carved on it ( a Jesuit marking but for Waltz a grave ). Beyond that cross is the mine. Waltz planted a Juniper in front of the cross marking in regards to hide the mine and the cross from those who would come from the narrow pass to the shelf. So, looking to the Military Trail, the Juniper it's few feet to the right from the mine which also it's covered in the way Waltz described.
IMO, 20 feet away it's too much if you consider the mine it's hidden by the Juniper and the narrow pass. So, you can see the mine only if you are upon it.

Just my two cents for 15 minutes of glory.
 

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markmar

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From both LD mines could be seen the Military Trail, from the mines mouth or from the whole 2 acres of the small valley where they are located. They are on the same mountainside at only 68 yards apart in a straight line.
Here is a modified aerial image which shows the two mines. In the orange circle it's the LDM inclined shaft which like you can see it's below the elongated square rock, and in the yellow circle is the LDM opened by Waltz from a gold outcrop, which it's beside the Juniper planted by Waltz to hide it.
Many claimed they know where the LDM's are located, but they know very well how the reality is different than that which they want to support, in vain of course, because the truth is the truth every hour and season of the year.
 

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Doc4261

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From both LD mines could be seen the Military Trail, from the mines mouth or from the whole 2 acres of the small valley where they are located. They are on the same mountainside at only 68 yards apart in a straight line.
Here is a modified aerial image which shows the two mines. In the orange circle it's the LDM inclined shaft which like you can see it's below the elongated square rock, and in the yellow circle is the LDM opened by Waltz from a gold outcrop, which it's beside the Juniper planted by Waltz to hide it.
Many claimed they know where the LDM's are located, but they know very well how the reality is different than that which they want to support, in vain of course, because the truth is the truth every hour and season of the year.
Here's a lil better view of what markmar is trying to show u. Not to give too much away from his spot he says it's at. The 68 yrds he claims is 68 ft. Just to make everything real and in check. Can bullshit some people, but not me. Lmao
 

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markmar

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Like I wrote. Who is next?
 

Doc4261

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Like I wrote. Who is next?
Markmar. Give ya credit. Your the closest person I've seen post on this forum of where it is located and there are mines in that area lost still to be found. U have the military trail.
 

Idahodutch

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From both LD mines could be seen the Military Trail, from the mines mouth or from the whole 2 acres of the small valley where they are located. They are on the same mountainside at only 68 yards apart in a straight line.
Here is a modified aerial image which shows the two mines. In the orange circle it's the LDM inclined shaft which like you can see it's below the elongated square rock, and in the yellow circle is the LDM opened by Waltz from a gold outcrop, which it's beside the Juniper planted by Waltz to hide it.
Many claimed they know where the LDM's are located, but they know very well how the reality is different than that which they want to support, in vain of course, because the truth is the truth every hour and season of the year.
How come you start off talking of military trail, but show nothing of it.

Besides you are missing at least 2 clues.
The rock man where you turn LEFT from the military trail, and the view of Four Peaks, where they look like one peak.

Big clues, to not have for your spot of interest.
Nice try, but no cigar 🤓👍
 

Doc4261

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How come you start off talking of military trail, but show nothing of it.

Besides you are missing at least 2 clues.
The rock man where you turn LEFT from the military trail, and the view of Four Peaks, where they look like one peak.

Big clues, to not have for your spot of interest.
Nice try, but no cigar 🤓👍
Rock man was supposably knocked down and u cant see 4 peaks from the said area markmar was showing. But his area has a supposed treasure trove across the valley close to the military trail, and 3 mines I've always wanted to look sometime within a close range of said spot. Close range is for 1 to guess as I'm not sharing the spots till I get a good look sometime. 1 easy to get to, 2 no so much. His spot is Large area to look on foot without knowing exactly where to look but I'm sure he has narrowed down exact locations where to look. Geology is key. And his area is prob the primest area to look in the whole range. Off by an inch ,your off by a mile. Many maps point to his area, if ya can out the pieces together. Dutch, I had given u a clue on one of your pics of said area, but never picked up on it. Don't blame him for not sharing more. Why I kept it under wraps in my post. He would do good there, just not the LDM.
 

Idahodutch

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Rock man was supposably knocked down and u cant see 4 peaks from the said area markmar was showing. But his area has a supposed treasure trove across the valley close to the military trail, and 3 mines I've always wanted to look sometime within a close range of said spot. Close range is for 1 to guess as I'm not sharing the spots till I get a good look sometime. 1 easy to get to, 2 no so much. His spot is Large area to look on foot without knowing exactly where to look but I'm sure he has narrowed down exact locations where to look. Geology is key. And his area is prob the primest area to look in the whole range. Off by an inch ,your off by a mile. Many maps point to his area, if ya can out the pieces together. Dutch, I had given u a clue on one of your pics of said area, but never picked up on it. Don't blame him for not sharing more. Why I kept it under wraps in my post. He would do good there, just not the LDM.
Hello Doc,
I have heard the mumblings about is the rock man still intact or not.
Only speculation due to lack of finding something….. would be my guess as to the summations by some.

The photograph I included in my thread The Rock Man, was taken from the military trail, after the trail turns to the South.
It would be difficult to knock him over 🤓

Here is a copy of it.

D62E0018-C6BE-4B3C-8C5A-DE4D7C7FC326.jpeg
 

Doc4261

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Hello Doc,
I have heard the mumblings about is the rock man still intact or not.
Only speculation due to lack of finding something….. would be my guess as to the summations by some.

The photograph I included in my thread The Rock Man, was taken from the military trail, after the trail turns to the South.
It would be difficult to knock him over 🤓

Here is a copy of it.

View attachment 2052919
I've never took stock in the rock man. I followed maps. Things that are tangable and can be proven. I wasn't looking for the LDM when I started my journey. I was following the Jesuits. One thing stumbled on another made me expand my knowledge of other said mines and clues to see what could be proven. My start was the amethyst mine found walled up and how the stones ended in kings crowns a ocean away, yet no knowledge of how they got there . Provable info wrapped in mystery. I know the answers now. Whether someone would believe it or not , I can't say as I'm only sharing my info to 1 so it's not lost . But yet probably will. Have the feeling to share with 1 more that really cars, but with who is the question. If I do it will be one that has spent the time and deserves to know. Many of those people have passed. Which makes it harder.
 

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