Getting tired of false signals...

[Robin (MI)]

Yes, the Manticore sniffs out some coins masked by iron. I've found coins like that. Unfortunately it constantly gives a high-tone false off iron, which requires further investigation. Yesterday I hunted a field that once had an old home site. Tons of iron. I did manage to dig one 1865 Indian head cent that rang up a solid 50. Mighty low on the vid. Anyway, I probably listened to at least 300 nice high tones, some nulled with a 90 deg. turn. None of them, that I dug, were coins. My least favorite is a bolt or bent nail down at ten-plus inches that really sounds great even at 90 deg. - open up the hole and it sounds better - only to find another piece of iron. If it sounds great and the depth is maxed out - it is a frickin nail that is most likely off center in the hole. (requiring much effort and digging to find). Can you tell I'm frustrated with this machine?

I have probably put in 50 hours on the Manticore since I got it. I am trying hard to learn it (and like it), but days like yesterday make me want to get my Explorer back out. I know if I do, I might as well sell the Manticore. I was really hoping for more out of this machine. I am beginning to think that the way this machine gives false signals off iron is it's edge to finding hidden coins. Unfortunately I have to dig, a ton of iron to find that once in a while coin. To be fair, a masked coin usually sounds a little better than an iron false signal (but not much).

I would think with such a great option on the Explorers of hunting in ferrous tones (low tone for iron - high tone for non-ferrous), that a similar option would be carried over to new machines. Sure large iron rings up high on the Explorer, but 95 percent of iron targets ring up as iron WITHOUT an iron false. It is easy to tell with the Explorer in ferrous-tones mode.

I will keep trying. I love the weight of the Manticore and the headphones. Anybody else getting frustrated? I saw one video where the guy dug deep iron that sounded good - "If you are a relic hunter you wouldn't want to pass that up." was his comment. That's true, but it is really frustrating for us coin hunters.

 

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[Ed_DE]

Yes I"m having the same exact issue with my Manticore at relic sites with a lot of iron contamination. I still don't have a lot hours on my Manticore so I haven't fully learned the detector. But I dug a lot more square nails & large deep iron than I ever did with my Equinox 800. I tired changing the upper ferrous limits & recovery speed to no avail. I think it is an issue Minelab needs to address with a software update. The 11" coil is too large for sites with a lot of iron & Minelab will be coming out with the 8 X 5.5 elliptical double-d coil sometime this year so hopefully that will help.

 

[Robin (MI)]

Well, I had fun, finally! It really helps if you find something, haha. I went back to the hunted out park. This time I turned on the "Horse Shoe" and hunted with that turned on. I use All-Terrain General with recovery speed at 4, normal audio with rich profile. I do have my Ferrous tone volume set down some (I may turn it down more). I still dug a few thin rusty fence chunks that gave a fairly good signal down deep. But for the most part it was way less frustrating for me with the horse shoe on. It let me know where the iron was and where good targets were. Numerous times I dug three holes in the same small area and found goodies: First hole tiny piece of foil (that wasn't it) Flattened bottle cap (that didn't seem like it) finally a deep Indian Head cent (10"), off about 6 inches from the bottle cap.

With the horse shoe on, the Manticore worked very similarly to my Explorer in Ferrous-Tones, which is how I liked to hunt iron infested sites (hear it all - but it can be overwhelming to some). Nice that the Manticore has a ferrous volume! If you are having iron false signals trouble, try hunting with the horse shoe on (and ferrous tone volume down some).

Hunting this way seemed to cause less iron false-signals. Or it could be that hearing it all keeps me from zeroing in on an iron false, thinking it is good, because I can hear where the iron is. Hope this is making sense to you. I think this may save me from going back to the Explorer and putting the Manticore in the corner...

 

[pepperj]

Well, I had fun, finally! It really helps if you find something, haha. I went back to the hunted out park. This time I turned on the "Horse Shoe" and hunted with that turned on. I use All-Terrain General with recovery speed at 4, normal audio with rich profile. I do have my Ferrous tone volume set down some (I may turn it down more). I still dug a few thin rusty fence chunks that gave a fairly good signal down deep. But for the most part it was way less frustrating for me with the horse shoe on. It let me know where the iron was and where good targets were. Numerous times I dug three holes in the same small area and found goodies: First hole tiny piece of foil (that wasn't it) Flattened bottle cap (that didn't seem like it) finally a deep Indian Head cent (10"), off about 6 inches from the bottle cap.

With the horse shoe on, the Manticore worked very similarly to my Explorer in Ferrous-Tones, which is how I liked to hunt iron infested sites (hear it all - but it can be overwhelming to some). Nice that the Manticore has a ferrous volume! If you are having iron false signals trouble, try hunting with the horse shoe on (and ferrous tone volume down some).

Hunting this way seemed to cause less iron false-signals. Or it could be that hearing it all keeps me from zeroing in on an iron false, thinking it is good, because I can hear where the iron is. Hope this is making sense to you. I think this may save me from going back to the Explorer and putting the Manticore in the corner...

Good to read that you have started to figure out what's what with the machine. Also a understandable write up on what you've experienced.
There's a point of digging iron, and then there's a point in time where it gets to be no fun. (unless a person is into iron)
I went to the Deus 1 because of the weight issue with the Explorers, and I dug a lot of iron. Then the Nox came out and I wasn't convinced to change back then the long debate of the Manticore and the Deus ll.
Each has there place it seems and since I am strictly land, I went with the Deus.
Still the bent nail seems to fool me less now, and the #84 is getting to be a given of deep sq. nails.
The 90 degree turn, the ID #'s going to a lower value seems to help in figuring it out, and the tones.

50 hours on a machine is a bit of time, though I still go on the rule it takes many 100's of hours on a machine to start learning what it's doing. (Personally I set it @ 1000 hrs)
Also detecting lags with a machine at the beginning-meaning a days hunt, then set down. Then next weekend another hunt, set down. This is putting on hours but it's also going to take more time in learning the machine (no fault of anyone, it's what life is) The point is I grasp a machine a lot faster getting in a few back to back hunts before the information fades in the head.

 

[Robin (MI)]

Good to read that you have started to figure out what's what with the machine. Also a understandable write up on what you've experienced.
There's a point of digging iron, and then there's a point in time where it gets to be no fun. (unless a person is into iron)
I went to the Deus 1 because of the weight issue with the Explorers, and I dug a lot of iron. Then the Nox came out and I wasn't convinced to change back then the long debate of the Manticore and the Deus ll.
Each has there place it seems and since I am strictly land, I went with the Deus.
Still the bent nail seems to fool me less now, and the #84 is getting to be a given of deep sq. nails.
The 90 degree turn, the ID #'s going to a lower value seems to help in figuring it out, and the tones.

50 hours on a machine is a bit of time, though I still go on the rule it takes many 100's of hours on a machine to start learning what it's doing. (Personally I set it @ 1000 hrs)
Also detecting lags with a machine at the beginning-meaning a days hunt, then set down. Then next weekend another hunt, set down. This is putting on hours but it's also going to take more time in learning the machine (no fault of anyone, it's what life is) The point is I grasp a machine a lot faster getting in a few back to back hunts before the information fades in the head.

Thanks pepperj! I think a lot of people went away from the Explorer because of the weight. Was anyone sad when the CTX came out and was heavier? Like everyone... and the price too - gads. I ended up modifying my Explorer for a little weight savings. Tried the Nox, but preferred the Explorer. The Nox was great for water hunting. I traded it in when I bought the Manticore.

I agree with the 50 hours being a short time to learn a machine, but having over 20 years experience detecting helps. Hopefully I'll be liking the Manticore more and more.

 

[pepperj]

Thanks pepperj! I think a lot of people went away from the Explorer because of the weight. Was anyone sad when the CTX came out and was heavier? Like everyone... and the price too - gads. I ended up modifying my Explorer for a little weight savings. Tried the Nox, but preferred the Explorer. The Nox was great for water hunting. I traded it in when I bought the Manticore.

I agree with the 50 hours being a short time to learn a machine, but having over 20 years experience detecting helps. Hopefully I'll be liking the Manticore more and more.

Having to have a bungee cord to detect long hours isn't a great solution. I wasn't overly impressed by a few things with the CTX, I could of done without all the GEO tracking BS. I didn't need to know where I went, nor where I dug it, that's what I do in the head. (When I do forget the Mrs said she'll rebury my finds, and it'll all be new and exciting for me to dig them back up)
Though swinging the Explorers was better then swinging the original Whites, the wrists were never the same.
It's kind of hard changing brand loyalty, though once it's done the learning process starts again for a number of things.
We all have the swinging down-maybe the speed needs adjusting for each setting or machine. Never understood the need to cover the 10 acres per hour detecting speed.
Total agreement that the basis is easier having a few decades under the belt.

 

[mjb Mike]

lots of good info thanks for posting

 

[MackDog]

Here's how I start out. Turn on the Manticore adjust sensitivity to where it barely just starts to make and noise then back down two more notches. Do a continuous noise cancel until the number stays the same for a couple of cycles. I run coil speed at 5 because it works best for me. Then my actual swing speed varies to conditions. If there are a lot of signals slow down to where you can hear each one, if it's less trashy swing at a normal rate. I run general, normal and simple audio. Run with the horse shoe off, when you get a a good signal from multiple directions, pin point it. The go over it with the horse shoe on, if there is any grunts it's usually bad. How ever sometimes you can pin point the grunt using the shake method. If the grunt is to the side of the target pinpoint then it's probably a good target. Always be ready to do another continuous noise cancel if it starts to get erratic. The falsing will show up on the 2 D graph. If the trace is not a dot or close to it and not centered on the line it's probably trash. If it's floating just above or below it's still probably junk. If the signal is clear in both directions and you see a line it's probably a coin standing on edge. If you hear multiple tones and see different traces on the center line it could be a coin spill. Using this method I have been able to dig a lot of coins and jewelry while digging hardly any trash. Good luck and hopes this helps

 

[Robin (MI)]

Here's how I start out. Turn on the Manticore adjust sensitivity to where it barely just starts to make and noise then back down two more notches. Do a continuous noise cancel until the number stays the same for a couple of cycles. I run coil speed at 5 because it works best for me. Then my actual swing speed varies to conditions. If there are a lot of signals slow down to where you can hear each one, if it's less trashy swing at a normal rate. I run general, normal and simple audio. Run with the horse shoe off, when you get a a good signal from multiple directions, pin point it. The go over it with the horse shoe on, if there is any grunts it's usually bad. How ever sometimes you can pin point the grunt using the shake method. If the grunt is to the side of the target pinpoint then it's probably a good target. Always be ready to do another continuous noise cancel if it starts to get erratic. The falsing will show up on the 2 D graph. If the trace is not a dot or close to it and not centered on the line it's probably trash. If it's floating just above or below it's still probably junk. If the signal is clear in both directions and you see a line it's probably a coin standing on edge. If you hear multiple tones and see different traces on the center line it could be a coin spill. Using this method I have been able to dig a lot of coins and jewelry while digging hardly any trash. Good luck and hopes this helps

Thanks MackDog!!

 

[Robin (MI)]

Yes, the Manticore sniffs out some coins masked by iron. I've found coins like that. Unfortunately it constantly gives a high-tone false off iron, which requires further investigation. Yesterday I hunted a field that once had an old home site. Tons of iron. I did manage to dig one 1865 Indian head cent that rang up a solid 50. Mighty low on the vid. Anyway, I probably listened to at least 300 nice high tones, some nulled with a 90 deg. turn. None of them, that I dug, were coins. My least favorite is a bolt or bent nail down at ten-plus inches that really sounds great even at 90 deg. - open up the hole and it sounds better - only to find another piece of iron. If it sounds great and the depth is maxed out - it is a frickin nail that is most likely off center in the hole. (requiring much effort and digging to find). Can you tell I'm frustrated with this machine?

I have probably put in 50 hours on the Manticore since I got it. I am trying hard to learn it (and like it), but days like yesterday make me want to get my Explorer back out. I know if I do, I might as well sell the Manticore. I was really hoping for more out of this machine. I am beginning to think that the way this machine gives false signals off iron is it's edge to finding hidden coins. Unfortunately I have to dig, a ton of iron to find that once in a while coin. To be fair, a masked coin usually sounds a little better than an iron false signal (but not much).

I would think with such a great option on the Explorers of hunting in ferrous tones (low tone for iron - high tone for non-ferrous), that a similar option would be carried over to new machines. Sure large iron rings up high on the Explorer, but 95 percent of iron targets ring up as iron WITHOUT an iron false. It is easy to tell with the Explorer in ferrous-tones mode.

I will keep trying. I love the weight of the Manticore and the headphones. Anybody else getting frustrated? I saw one video where the guy dug deep iron that sounded good - "If you are a relic hunter you wouldn't want to pass that up." was his comment. That's true, but it is really frustrating for us coin hunters.

As I thought, Minelab confirmed (pretty much) that the iron false "problem" is by design. Here is a quote from ML that I read recently:

The MANTICORE is a very different detector to the EQUINOX, despite some similarities. It was specifically designed with heavily hunted-out sites in mind, which are now much more common for most detectorists, and where finds are becoming increasingly sparse. It is intentionally much more aggressive than the EQUINOX 800, and is designed to stop users on iffy detections more often, but also to provide the user with more information on which to decide whether to dig. We would expect an experienced MANTICORE user to dig iron more often than with an EQUINOX 800, but over time should also find some targets that an EQUINOX 800 might overlook. The consequence is that the MANTICORE can be a more challenging user experience, and we find that most experienced EQUINOX 800 users need to go through a period of adaption to get the most out of a MANTICORE.

In the "near future" there is suppose to be a software update that will make things easier in this respect.

 

[MackDog]

Using the Manticore I actually dig less trash signals and find more good targets

 

[Robin (MI)]

Using the Manticore I actually dig less trash signals and find more good targets

That is a great thing for you! I am getting there, but many times it's either pass up a decent signal or dig iron. It is getting easier to pass up a 90 down at max depth, but it shouldn't be.

I could not pull up your picture link.

 

[Robin (MI)]

Here's how I start out. Turn on the Manticore adjust sensitivity to where it barely just starts to make and noise then back down two more notches. Do a continuous noise cancel until the number stays the same for a couple of cycles. I run coil speed at 5 because it works best for me. Then my actual swing speed varies to conditions. If there are a lot of signals slow down to where you can hear each one, if it's less trashy swing at a normal rate. I run general, normal and simple audio. Run with the horse shoe off, when you get a a good signal from multiple directions, pin point it. The go over it with the horse shoe on, if there is any grunts it's usually bad. How ever sometimes you can pin point the grunt using the shake method. If the grunt is to the side of the target pinpoint then it's probably a good target. Always be ready to do another continuous noise cancel if it starts to get erratic. The falsing will show up on the 2 D graph. If the trace is not a dot or close to it and not centered on the line it's probably trash. If it's floating just above or below it's still probably junk. If the signal is clear in both directions and you see a line it's probably a coin standing on edge. If you hear multiple tones and see different traces on the center line it could be a coin spill. Using this method I have been able to dig a lot of coins and jewelry while digging hardly any trash. Good luck and hopes this helps

Hey MackDog please explain the "Shake Method" to pinpoint. Never heard of that. Thanks!

 

[Robin (MI)]

Here is my wish: Minelab, please make a lightweight, waterproof Explorer... I don't think any ML machine since the Explorer II has preformed better. Why they must continue with new machines replacing better machines, is anyone's guess. Of course this is just my opinion. As they say, wish in one hand and poop in the other, see which one gets full first...

By the way, I have found the Manticore update fix for iron false signals to be useless. Turning down the volume and making the signal tinny sounding, is not really a solution. Especially when you realize that it does that to a coin laying above iron.

 

[Bart@Big Boys Hobbies]

Here's how I start out. Turn on the Manticore adjust sensitivity to where it barely just starts to make and noise then back down two more notches.

Great advice for any machine. The Minelab Manticore is beyond deadly in iron and trash. VERY VERY impressive!

 

[MackDog]

Hey MackDog please explain the "Shake Method" to pinpoint. Never heard of that. Thanks!

The shake is when you use the coil to barely move side t5o side like only a 2 inch sweep with the Manticore you need to do this because of the separation and closeness to other targets. You can actually hear if the target is tight next to iron. The iron grunt will be off to the side and you will be able to hear the target tone

 

[Robin (MI)]

Well, I was on another 1800's home site in a farm field. Using the Manticore was tedious and frustrating again. As I explained to my wife... Imagine a room sized patch of ground. In that area I probably stopped and investigated 40 iron false high tones with the Manticore. Using my Explorer II, in ferrous tones, for that same area I would only have had maybe 8 to 10 false signals - if that. After the field hunt, I decided to get the Explorer II back out for a return hunt at the site. It will be the first time I've used the Explorer II since I purchased the Manticore.

I wish the Manticore could be my all-around detector. I just can't waste so much time investigating iron, when I know the Explorer would breeze through the site. When I got to the point that I was saying in my head, "It's another F'ing iron false!", it was no longer fun. I also thought about ignoring high tones, but that would make detecting pointless. The Manticore is great for some sites, but not all. Just my opinion.

I did find an old sleigh bell and a tiny patriotic pin, plus lots of aluminum slaw stuff.

I was texting a friend about Manticore features and mentioned it does not have "Ferrous Tones". His reply was "What, No Ferrous Tones!?" My thoughts also...

 

[pepperj]

Great advice for any machine. The Minelab Manticore is beyond deadly in iron and trash. VERY VERY impressive!

Well, I was on another 1800's home site in a farm field. Using the Manticore was tedious and frustrating again. As I explained to my wife... Imagine a room sized patch of ground. In that area I probably stopped and investigated 40 iron false high tones with the Manticore. Using my Explorer II, in ferrous tones, for that same area I would only have had maybe 8 to 10 false signals - if that. After the field hunt, I decided to get the Explorer II back out for a return hunt at the site. It will be the first time I've used the Explorer II since I purchased the Manticore.

I wish the Manticore could be my all-around detector. I just can't waste so much time investigating iron, when I know the Explorer would breeze through the site. When I got to the point that I was saying in my head, "It's another F'ing iron false!", it was no longer fun. I also thought about ignoring high tones, but that would make detecting pointless. The Manticore is great for some sites, but not all. Just my opinion.

I did find an old sleigh bell and a tiny patriotic pin, plus lots of aluminum slaw stuff.

I was texting a friend about Manticore features and mentioned it does not have "Ferrous Tones". His reply was "What, No Ferrous Tones!?" My thoughts also...

I read these 2 posts, and have followed the thread on what you have posted Robin.

It makes sense on what I have gathered that the Manicore does what you are saying, but there's a limit to one's enjoyment.
It seems that Bart stated it's deadly in iron (I would really like more input on this statement)
Maybe he can elaborate on a setting that would bring the falsing issue down to an acceptable level.

I dug way more iron with the Deus l than what I do with the Deus ll. When they did the firmware from .70-1.0 it wasn't good as it really enhanced the false high tone issue. Though they listened and came out with a patch 1.10 which resolved most of it (time will tell as I'm still not 100% convinced it did).

I don't mind a few high tone false signals eg. iron hames rings, or the bent sq. nails. To where it clicks in the mind that it sounded a tad different (got me thought).
But it's no fun digging iron after iron signal, that's when the grumbling start to be expressed.

Then again many will stand behind the certain makes (brand loyalty) as in autos/motors/what ever, even if there's something better out there.

 

[Robin (MI)]

Thanks for the reply pepperj! I am brand loyal to a point. I've been running a Minelab for many years and have been happy with them. The Explorers were exceptional machines. The Excalibur was great for water but a tad heavy for me. I was never a big water guy anyway.

The Manticore is good at finding masked coins in iron. You have to listen to the false high tones to get them though. I am by no means an expert on the Manticore. For instance, I tried to notch out a tiny area of the highest tones - a single line at the extreme right of the screen (someone said that helps with the iron false signals). I could not figure out how to do it while in the field. I'll have to refer to the manual.

I am not digging that much iron anymore with the Manticore. A bent nail will fool most machines. Once in a while a thin piece of iron will fool me. I do get tired of investigating false signals though. Especially in high iron fields. Then I think back on the Explorer's performance in ferrous tones mode... If there was a high tone - it was NOT iron, 99% of the time. Why would Minelab let performance like that fall by the wayside? Maybe the CTX still does that, I don't know.

 

[pepperj]

Thanks for the reply pepperj! I am brand loyal to a point. I've been running a Minelab for many years and have been happy with them. The Explorers were exceptional machines. The Excalibur was great for water but a tad heavy for me. I was never a big water guy anyway.

The Manticore is good at finding masked coins in iron. You have to listen to the false high tones to get them though. I am by no means an expert on the Manticore. For instance, I tried to notch out a tiny area of the highest tones - a single line at the extreme right of the screen (someone said that helps with the iron false signals). I could not figure out how to do it while in the field. I'll have to refer to the manual.

I am not digging that much iron anymore with the Manticore. A bent nail will fool most machines. Once in a while a thin piece of iron will fool me. I do get tired of investigating false signals though. Especially in high iron fields. Then I think back on the Explorer's performance in ferrous tones mode... If there was a high tone - it was NOT iron, 99% of the time. Why would Minelab let performance like that fall by the wayside? Maybe the CTX still does that, I don't know.

I hear you on doing something in the field (the blonde factor) I shake my head sometimes at why it's easy at home, doing it from the manual-then it's gone at the site. (tech isn't one of my strong points).

The false high tone signals of the Explorer series was there, deep iron was dug many times with the ETrac/CTX as well. Then again when really nice keepers were at a site one has to dig to see if it was a keeper.

In just 6 years I had amassed 3 full 45 gallon barrels of iron. (now in the past year it's only -5 gallon pail.)

I really liked the Minelabs and still can't bring myself in selling off the herd.
What I found with nearly all the high tone false signals with the Dues ll is when I go over them again the number will drop-sure sign it's ferrous. If it locks on a certain # and stays the same no matter which direction then it's non-ferrous. But the GGRRRR comes out when it turns out to be iron crap.
Flat rusty tin just under the surface is a game stopper at a few sites. (not sure on a work around on this issue)