✅ SOLVED Hairy like mineral on botryoidal Chalcedony

Steve1236

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Steve1236

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Curious if anyone knows what mineral this is, it's super tiny, I'm using a loupe with led light to take the pictures, I did clean this chalcedony agate specimen in CLR, I was removing some clacite. I found this specimen in Maricopa county Az.
Thanks in advance
Zeolite, ruled out carbonate, calcite, argonite etc with CLR
 

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Steve1236

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Which zeolite mineral do you think it is Steve? There are more than a hundred zeolite minera
Maybe Mordenite but I'd have to have it analyzed to know for sure, I know it's not calcite for sure, it wouldn't have survived the CLR, I use that stuff to either give my calcite a good luster or for completely dissolving the calcite off a specimen.
 

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Clay Diggins

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There's these tiny crystals as well on this same specimen that look an awful lot like stilbite, what do you think Clay?
It does look like it might be Stilbite Steve. In the zeolite group It could also be Gmelinite, Phillipsite, Paulingite, Heulandite or several others. It may not even be a zeolite it could be Wolframite or a bunch of other similar looking minerals.

The white fuzzy (delicate!) crystals look like Natrolite but more information than a picture is needed. Color with zeolites is not a good indicator. Crystal forms in the zeolite subgroups can be variable across the series. Most zeolite crystal groups are small or combined with other zeolite group minerals so XRF analysis is rarely an option. Most zeolites are confirmed by chemical tests.

Zeolites aren't rare but good crystal groups are hard to obtain because most of these minerals are fragile. Here's an example I collected from SA canyon:
Mesolite.jpg

Mesolite sprays on Chabazite/Calcite with a sprinkling of Analcime crystals.

There were two of these crystal groups together but my collecting partner in his zeal to "clean" the other group he gently blew on the group and the Mesolite sprays turned to a cloud of dust floating in the air. Very delicate!
 

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Steve1236

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It does look like it might be Stilbite Steve. In the zeolite group It could also be Gmelinite, Phillipsite, Paulingite, Heulandite or several others. It may not even be a zeolite it could be Wolframite or a bunch of other similar looking minerals.

The white fuzzy (delicate!) crystals look like Natrolite but more information than a picture is needed. Color with zeolites is not a good indicator. Crystal forms in the zeolite subgroups can be variable across the series. Most zeolite crystal groups are small or combined with other zeolite group minerals so XRF analysis is rarely an option. Most zeolites are confirmed by chemical tests.

Zeolites aren't rare but good crystal groups are hard to obtain because most of these minerals are fragile. Here's an example I collected from SA canyon:
View attachment 2015332
Mesolite sprays on Chabazite/Calcite with a sprinkling of Analcime crystals.

There were two of these crystal groups together but my collecting partner in his zeal to "clean" the other group he gently blew on the group and the Mesolite sprays turned to a cloud of dust floating in the air. Very

It does look like it might be Stilbite Steve. In the zeolite group It could also be Gmelinite, Phillipsite, Paulingite, Heulandite or several others. It may not even be a zeolite it could be Wolframite or a bunch of other similar looking minerals.

The white fuzzy (delicate!) crystals look like Natrolite but more information than a picture is needed. Color with zeolites is not a good indicator. Crystal forms in the zeolite subgroups can be variable across the series. Most zeolite crystal groups are small or combined with other zeolite group minerals so XRF analysis is rarely an option. Most zeolites are confirmed by chemical tests.

Zeolites aren't rare but good crystal groups are hard to obtain because most of these minerals are fragile. Here's an example I collected from SA canyon:
View attachment 2015332
Mesolite sprays on Chabazite/Calcite with a sprinkling of Analcime crystals.

There were two of these crystal groups together but my collecting partner in his zeal to "clean" the other group he gently blew on the group and the Mesolite sprays turned to a cloud of dust floating in the air. Very delicate!
That's a really nice specimen, I love those mesolite sprays, what I'm showing is through a loupe, I was just curious to what they are, to small in my opinion for example specimens such as yours, I'll take a picture of the Chalcedony/Agate specimen I'm seeing these crystals on, brb..
 

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Steve1236

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It does look like it might be Stilbite Steve. In the zeolite group It could also be Gmelinite, Phillipsite, Paulingite, Heulandite or several others. It may not even be a zeolite it could be Wolframite or a bunch of other similar looking minerals.

The white fuzzy (delicate!) crystals look like Natrolite but more information than a picture is needed. Color with zeolites is not a good indicator. Crystal forms in the zeolite subgroups can be variable across the series. Most zeolite crystal groups are small or combined with other zeolite group minerals so XRF analysis is rarely an option. Most zeolites are confirmed by chemical tests.

Zeolites aren't rare but good crystal groups are hard to obtain because most of these minerals are fragile. Here's an example I collected from SA canyon:
View attachment 2015332
Mesolite sprays on Chabazite/Calcite with a sprinkling of Analcime crystals.

There were two of these crystal groups together but my collecting partner in his zeal to "clean" the other group he gently blew on the group and the Mesolite sprays turned to a cloud of dust floating in the

It does look like it might be Stilbite Steve. In the zeolite group It could also be Gmelinite, Phillipsite, Paulingite, Heulandite or several others. It may not even be a zeolite it could be Wolframite or a bunch of other similar looking minerals.

The white fuzzy (delicate!) crystals look like Natrolite but more information than a picture is needed. Color with zeolites is not a good indicator. Crystal forms in the zeolite subgroups can be variable across the series. Most zeolite crystal groups are small or combined with other zeolite group minerals so XRF analysis is rarely an option. Most zeolites are confirmed by chemical tests.

Zeolites aren't rare but good crystal groups are hard to obtain because most of these minerals are fragile. Here's an example I collected from SA canyon:
View attachment 2015332
Mesolite sprays on Chabazite/Calcite with a sprinkling of Analcime crystals.

There were two of these crystal groups together but my collecting partner in his zeal to "clean" the other group he gently blew on the group and the Mesolite sprays turned to a cloud of dust floating in the air. Very delicate!
I'm pointing at the layer of fuzzy white crystals in the botryoidal Chalcedony, I was dissolving the calcite to expose the vug with druzy/quartz crystals, I'm out of CLR and I don't have any acid so I have to wait to finish dissolving the calcite, the second picture is the backside shown wet, that's the reason I actually grabbed this specimen, I thought this material might be pretty cut into slabs
 

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Steve1236

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It does look like it might be Stilbite Steve. In the zeolite group It could also be Gmelinite, Phillipsite, Paulingite, Heulandite or several others. It may not even be a zeolite it could be Wolframite or a bunch of other similar looking minerals.

The white fuzzy (delicate!) crystals look like Natrolite but more information than a picture is needed. Color with zeolites is not a good indicator. Crystal forms in the zeolite subgroups can be variable across the series. Most zeolite crystal groups are small or combined with other zeolite group minerals so XRF analysis is rarely an option. Most zeolites are confirmed by chemical tests.

Zeolites aren't rare but good crystal groups are hard to obtain because most of these minerals are fragile. Here's an example I collected from SA canyon:
View attachment 2015332
Mesolite sprays on Chabazite/Calcite with a sprinkling of Analcime crystals.

There were two of these crystal groups together but my collecting partner in his zeal to "clean" the other group he gently blew on the group and the Mesolite sprays turned to a cloud of dust floating in the air. Very delicate!
Got another one for you Clay, I have no idea what these mineral inclusions are, it's got me stumped, maybe sagenatic? I find this type out where I dig for fire agates, they're like 100 feet away, at most, do you know what these inclusions are?
 

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Clay Diggins

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Got another one for you Clay, I have no idea what these mineral inclusions are, it's got me stumped, maybe sagenatic? I find this type out where I dig for fire agates, they're like 100 feet away, at most, do you know what these inclusions are?
Never heard of Sagenatic. Maybe you mean Sagenite? Not really a mineral but more of a description of crystal growth in Rutile (titanium dioxide) or Tourmaline. I doubt you will find Rutile in Chalcedony from that area but you will find black Schorl Tourmaline in Chalcedony, it's pretty common there.

Those aren't necessarily mineral inclusions. They could be water or goethite or limonite which is what causes the "fire" effect in fire agate or just small fractures filled with water or gasses.
 

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Steve1236

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Never heard of Sagenatic. Maybe you mean Sagenite? Not really a mineral but more of a description of crystal growth in Rutile (titanium dioxide) or Tourmaline. I doubt you will find Rutile in Chalcedony from that area but you will find black Schorl Tourmaline in Chalcedony, it's pretty common there.

Those aren't necessarily mineral inclusions. They could be water or goethite or limonite which is what causes the "fire" effect in fire agate or just small fractures filled with water or gasses.
Yeah I meant sagenite, I know this material has it, here's a close up photo of one I cut open and polished, I just never seen those weird formations in the last post.
 

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Steve1236

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I looked at your picture. Nice rock. I'm not seeing any Rutile crystals in the stone. Why do you think it's Sagenite?
These are sagenite agate images from online, what else could I have in my specimen?
 

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Clay Diggins

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I Think the names are confusing the issue for you.

Sagenitic Agate is a retail trade name for some types of ornamental varigated Chalcedony. The name is based on appearance only - not mineralogy.

Rutile is the defining mineral component in Sagenite the mineral. Which is a twinned variety of Rutile. All Sagenite is composed of Rutile which is a Titanium Oxide and contains no silicon.

Apples
v
Oranges

The use of Sagenite to describe variegated Chalcedony "agate" seems to be limited to commercial advertising in the U.S. Not surprisingly the rest of the mineral world is a little upset at having their mineral name used for a different mineral. Mineral collectors are like that. :hello:

If you want to read more on the Sagenite naming issue:
 

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Steve1236

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Im curious, So what would you call those needle like sprays in my specimen, are they a zeolite inclusion, what is the correct terminology?
 

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Clay Diggins

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Im curious, So what would you call those needle like sprays in my specimen, are they a zeolite inclusion, what is the correct terminology?
I'm not sure they are inclusions. Agates are agates because the chalcedony is varicolored in interesting patterns. That doesn't mean anything is "included" in them.

The colors in rocks don't necessarily always come from having different minerals in them. A lot of the colors you see are due to light twisting through different densities of stone layers. Agates are composed of many many layers of deposited chalcedony. There are a lot of twists and turns for a photon of light to bounce it's way through.

Colors of rocks can also come from inclusions of minute and very thin layers of water, organic material or oxides. The fire agates are in this class. Very very thin layers of iron oxides are interleaved with relatively pure silicon, this causes the light to bend as it traverses the stone and this effect is what creates the flash of colors you see. Those colors are not the color of the minute layers but the color the light is shifted to as it's path is lengthened or shortened as it traverses the different densities.

For these first two examples think of what happens when sunlight passes through a prism. The light is broken into it's many color components and organized according to the different lengths each ray has to pass through the glass (silicon) of the prism. Same principle with many rocks

Another way that stones exhibit color is through color centers. This takes place on an atomic level and has nothing to do with the inclusions but everything to do with the energy state of the atom itself. The quartz group has several good examples of how this works. Quartz crystals are clear right? - except when they are purple (amethyst), Orange (Citrine) or some other color. The purple and orange of Amethyst and Citrine are due to the energy state of their atoms. Leave either stone out in the bright sunlight long enough and the photons of sunlight hitting the individual atoms gradually, one by one, reduce the energy state of the atom and return the color centers back to the steady state of clear quartz.

With the lowered energy state from the sun exposure amethyst and citrine have become ordinary clear quartz without any change in chemical composition. You can also move the energy state of quartz color centers to a higher state with the addition of energy in the form of heat or radiation. Green quartz from some regions can be turned to amethyst with this method. It's commonly accepted in mineralogy that most, if not all amethyst quartz, get it's color from long term low level radiation exposure that tweaks the color centers. Most gem quality amethyst is treated with heat or radiation to further improve it's color.

These color centers are not a side note to mineral color. Most precious gems get their color from natural color centers. The colored iris in eyes come from color centers - not pigment. Color centers are everywhere. Color centers and their trapped atoms are being used in quantum computing to produce single photons on demand.

Now a further explanation why your Chalcedony doesn't have included Sagenite. Each pure mineral has one or more crystal habits. Habit is about the exact way crystals are formed. If you know the crystal structure of a mineral you can identify the mineral by it's crystal habit.

If you look at the crystal habit of Sagenite rutile you will see that it's acicular. Acicular means the crystal is needle like. It's long, thin and very straight. If the crystal habit of the inclusions in a stone are not acicular you can bet good money they aren't Sagenite.

Wanna bet? I could use some easy money. :thumbsup:

This is the shortened and simplified version of why some rocks have different colors. There is a lot more to it and some of the examples I gave aren't real accurate because I've simplified some things to make them easier to understand and to save wearing out my typing finger. I've been seriously studying this stuff for 52 years and I'm far from an expert. Now you have some terminology and concepts you can chase down and with a little luck you too can spend 52 years trying to understand rocks.
:headbang:
 

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Steve1236

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I'm not sure they are inclusions. Agates are agates because the chalcedony is varicolored in interesting patterns. That doesn't mean anything is "included" in them.

The colors in rocks don't necessarily always come from having different minerals in them. A lot of the colors you see are due to light twisting through different densities of stone layers. Agates are composed of many many layers of deposited chalcedony. There are a lot of twists and turns for a photon of light to bounce it's way through.

Colors of rocks can also come from inclusions of minute and very thin layers of water, organic material or oxides. The fire agates are in this class. Very very thin layers of iron oxides are interleaved with relatively pure silicon, this causes the light to bend as it traverses the stone and this effect is what creates the flash of colors you see. Those colors are not the color of the minute layers but the color the light is shifted to as it's path is lengthened or shortened as it traverses the different densities.

For these first two examples think of what happens when sunlight passes through a prism. The light is broken into it's many color components and organized according to the different lengths each ray has to pass through the glass (silicon) of the prism. Same principle with many rocks

Another way that stones exhibit color is through color centers. This takes place on an atomic level and has nothing to do with the inclusions but everything to do with the energy state of the atom itself. The quartz group has several good examples of how this works. Quartz crystals are clear right? - except when they are purple (amethyst), Orange (Citrine) or some other color. The purple and orange of Amethyst and Citrine are due to the energy state of their atoms. Leave either stone out in the bright sunlight long enough and the photons of sunlight hitting the individual atoms gradually, one by one, reduce the energy state of the atom and return the color centers back to the steady state of clear quartz.

With the lowered energy state from the sun exposure amethyst and citrine have become ordinary clear quartz without any change in chemical composition. You can also move the energy state of quartz color centers to a higher state with the addition of energy in the form of heat or radiation. Green quartz from some regions can be turned to amethyst with this method. It's commonly accepted in mineralogy that most, if not all amethyst quartz, get it's color from long term low level radiation exposure that tweaks the color centers. Most gem quality amethyst is treated with heat or radiation to further improve it's color.

These color centers are not a side note to mineral color. Most precious gems get their color from natural color centers. The colored iris in eyes come from color centers - not pigment. Color centers are everywhere. Color centers and their trapped atoms are being used in quantum computing to produce single photons on demand.

Now a further explanation why your Chalcedony doesn't have included Sagenite. Each pure mineral has one or more crystal habits. Habit is about the exact way crystals are formed. If you know the crystal structure of a mineral you can identify the mineral by it's crystal habit.

If you look at the crystal habit of Sagenite rutile you will see that it's acicular. Acicular means the crystal is needle like. It's long, thin and very straight. If the crystal habit of the inclusions in a stone are not acicular you can bet good money they aren't Sagenite.

Wanna bet? I could use some easy money. :thumbsup:

This is the shortened and simplified version of why some rocks have different colors. There is a lot more to it and some of the examples I gave aren't real accurate because I've simplified some things to make them easier to understand and to save wearing out my typing finger. I've been seriously studying this stuff for 52 years and I'm far from an expert. Now you have some terminology and concepts you can chase down and with a little luck you too can spend 52 years trying to understand rocks.
:headbang:

I'm not sure they are inclusions. Agates are agates because the chalcedony is varicolored in interesting patterns. That doesn't mean anything is "included" in them.

The colors in rocks don't necessarily always come from having different minerals in them. A lot of the colors you see are due to light twisting through different densities of stone layers. Agates are composed of many many layers of deposited chalcedony. There are a lot of twists and turns for a photon of light to bounce it's way through.

Colors of rocks can also come from inclusions of minute and very thin layers of water, organic material or oxides. The fire agates are in this class. Very very thin layers of iron oxides are interleaved with relatively pure silicon, this causes the light to bend as it traverses the stone and this effect is what creates the flash of colors you see. Those colors are not the color of the minute layers but the color the light is shifted to as it's path is lengthened or shortened as it traverses the different densities.

For these first two examples think of what happens when sunlight passes through a prism. The light is broken into it's many color components and organized according to the different lengths each ray has to pass through the glass (silicon) of the prism. Same principle with many rocks

Another way that stones exhibit color is through color centers. This takes place on an atomic level and has nothing to do with the inclusions but everything to do with the energy state of the atom itself. The quartz group has several good examples of how this works. Quartz crystals are clear right? - except when they are purple (amethyst), Orange (Citrine) or some other color. The purple and orange of Amethyst and Citrine are due to the energy state of their atoms. Leave either stone out in the bright sunlight long enough and the photons of sunlight hitting the individual atoms gradually, one by one, reduce the energy state of the atom and return the color centers back to the steady state of clear quartz.

With the lowered energy state from the sun exposure amethyst and citrine have become ordinary clear quartz without any change in chemical composition. You can also move the energy state of quartz color centers to a higher state with the addition of energy in the form of heat or radiation. Green quartz from some regions can be turned to amethyst with this method. It's commonly accepted in mineralogy that most, if not all amethyst quartz, get it's color from long term low level radiation exposure that tweaks the color centers. Most gem quality amethyst is treated with heat or radiation to further improve it's color.

These color centers are not a side note to mineral color. Most precious gems get their color from natural color centers. The colored iris in eyes come from color centers - not pigment. Color centers are everywhere. Color centers and their trapped atoms are being used in quantum computing to produce single photons on demand.

Now a further explanation why your Chalcedony doesn't have included Sagenite. Each pure mineral has one or more crystal habits. Habit is about the exact way crystals are formed. If you know the crystal structure of a mineral you can identify the mineral by it's crystal habit.

If you look at the crystal habit of Sagenite rutile you will see that it's acicular. Acicular means the crystal is needle like. It's long, thin and very straight. If the crystal habit of the inclusions in a stone are not acicular you can bet good money they aren't Sagenite.

Wanna bet? I could use some easy money. :thumbsup:

This is the shortened and simplified version of why some rocks have different colors. There is a lot more to it and some of the examples I gave aren't real accurate because I've simplified some things to make them easier to understand and to save wearing out my typing finger. I've been seriously studying this stuff for 52 years and I'm far from an expert. Now you have some terminology and concepts you can chase down and with a little luck you too can spend 52 years trying to understand rocks.
:headbang:
Thanks Clay, I Didn't know that, I know it's not a lighting issue because I can see those sprays in light or in the shade, now fire I cannot, curious, I actually found a few of these in this picture as well over the years, my fire agate, the gem quality has this pattern in a lot of them, problem is, my spot doesn't have a lot of gem quality fire, only a small section has that rootbeer to black chalcedony you need for fire. so it's just a selling ploy and not really sagenite?
 

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fuss

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I have seen chalcedony/Agate from Utah being sold as Sagenite with either dendrites or maybe clay.. cant remember.. that when cut into slabs and polished looks like Sagebrush. No Rutile for sure was in that material.
 

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Clay Diggins

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Thanks Clay, I Didn't know that, I know it's not a lighting issue because I can see those sprays in light or in the shade, now fire I cannot, curious, I actually found a few of these in this picture as well over the years, my fire agate, the gem quality has this pattern in a lot of them, problem is, my spot doesn't have a lot of gem quality fire, only a small section has that rootbeer to black chalcedony you need for fire. so it's just a selling ploy and not really sagenite?
Sagenite is a twinned variety of the Titanium Oxide mineral Rutile. Rutile crystallizes in high-pressure, high-temperature igneous rocks. Sagenite Rutile is defined by the crossed twins of Rutile crystals - there are no "sprays". Here is an example of Sagenite twinning:
Sagenite.jpg

If it isn't twinned Rutile it's not Sagenite.

Many (thousands) of ornamental and semiprecious minerals in the U.S. are given "interesting" names by those who wish to sell them. Often these names are taken from real minerals to give them a form of fake authenticity or sciency sounding authority.

Agates are in particular subject to this misnaming. After all it's just ordinary Chalcedony with some interesting colors/patterns. The sellers have to do something to distinguish their agate from another piece of Chalcedony. That's how we end up with Chalcedony "Jade" (green dyed Chalcedony) and "Amethyst" Chalcedony. Terms like lace agate, moss agate, sagenitic agate and plume agate are just indications of what the agate looks like and don't in any way indicate the composition of the colored Chalcedony.

Looking at your pictures of the agate you've collected I don't see any identifiable crystal structures. Simply because some of the colored parts kinda line up doesn't indicate crystal structure, it's just the way the color of the trace minerals (mud, salts) were deposited as the agate was formed.

There are agates with included mineral crystals. I don't see any evidence your agates included mineral crystals.
 

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