JULIA THOMAS

[cactusjumper]

When Julia and Rhiney made their first trip to the Superstition Mountains, they tried to enter the mountains at Hog Canyon. That entry also matches the P.C. Bicknell article and thus the location that Adolph Ruth was seeking.

Since that time, we have had hundreds of stories leading us away from that
"best evidence". The reason for discounting Julia Thomas, is that she was a "city woman" and had no idea what she was looking for.....Lost before she even got started.

If that's true, why was Bicknell camping at Willow Spring.....same as Adolph Ruth? Why do the Stone Maps, as well as many other maps, lead you through the same area? Why did Tom Kollenborn (one of the most knowledgeable Dutch Hunters) spend so many years exploring that area on horseback? Why is he so sure (publicly) that the Stone Maps are a fraud?

Is it a coincidence that Harry LaFrance's cave of gold bars is on that same trail, or that Barry Storm claimed to have found a piece of rich gold ore float in Old West Boulder Canyon?

Was the arrastra found at the Massacre Grounds not related to the west end of the Superstitions? What about the other (unnamed) artifacts found in that same area?

Is it "truth" in all of the later stories (post Julia) that lead us away from the west end of the range, and farther East with each new revelation, or obfuscation?

It seems obvious, after all these years, that many Dutch Hunters may have
"lost the trail". Isn't the best course of action to return to the original tracks? Perhaps not.....after all, she was just a "city woman", all be it, a "city woman" who cleaned, fed, and consoled a dying Dutchman.

For those of you who are still searching, it might be a good idea to research where the early Dutch Hunters might have strayed off the orginal track. Here is a hint:

On many of the early maps, there is a "Picacho" that has always been assumed to be Weaver's Needle. They have all led to failure. Try replacing that idea with Superstition Peak as the "Picacho". Now take another look at the Stone Maps. Notice any similarities?
Now apply Bicknell's directions to the maps. Anyone able to find that "side canyon"? If you have.....you will find a sealed mine but it does not fit the description of the LDM, other than being "high up", in a north south trending canyon and facing the west. It helps to have a Topo on hand.

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[cactusjumper]

Randy,

If you were looking for the most important landmark, lets say Weaver's Needle framed in a saddle, there might be few choices. Waltz did say "It's in a rough place....", and that seems like quite a statement coming from an old Arizona prospector.

You may have noticed that she went north on their second try......not east. Perhaps they were supposed to go in above the Massacre Grounds and just missed it both times.

Now if Waltz actually found his gold at the Massacre Grounds, the most likely place to "cache" it, would be directly east into the mountains.

Did you use Superstition Peak for the Picacho in some of the early LDM maps, instead of Weaver's Needle? Does that end up placing you anywhere near that nice drawing of Weaver's Needle framed in the saddle? Probably just another coincidence.

So are you saying that you don't think Waltz would have sent them into a "rough place", even though that's where the mine was? Funny how you end up in the same area that Ruth did. If he came in the way I believe he did, instead of how we were told......

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

You have actually answered all of your own questions. Now all you have to do, is wear out some more boot leather.

Unless you are in a helicopter, you won't see Weaver's Needle framed in Fremont Saddle.....not like in the Waltz drawing.

The flatest and easiest way to reach the canyon below that saddle, is from the Massacre Grounds.

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

That's a pretty short statement for what must have been an eventful trip. Want to flesh it out a little?

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Good.....That should be an interesting read. Let's see it.

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

"IMHO Ruth never made it into the MTS . he was killed out side of the mts and the body was put out there to cover up his murder ..."

So we can assume that you believe that the letter written from Willow Spring, to Ruth's wife and children and in his handwriting, was a clever forgery?

Is that opinion based on some evidence that has never been made public before, or is it just something you know?

Just curious.....

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

"the site where his body was found is faked ...any good P.I. would tell you it looks to be a body dump....."

I will assume that you know what you are talking about here. No need to explain where your expertise comes from.....I know the drill.

Having said that, it seems a bit of a leap to say: "so most likely he was killed somewhere out side of the mts ..."

I will just assume this is just something the rest of us can't see(r).

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

I am no "pinkerton arm guard", but I have been looking into this story for over 48 years. That and five bucks will get me an average cup of coffee.

There are really a good many excellent sources for the details that abound in the LDM Legend. All of them made mistakes......all of them. Many folks repeat these mistakes and if repeated enough times by enough people, they become fact.

Dr. Hrdlicka did not say that Adolph Ruth was shot "with a high powered rifle". What he did say, was: "Holes in the skull, one about two inches in diameter on the left side and a much larger one on the right side, indicate a strong probability that the man was shot to death by a high powered gun and that the bullet passed somewhat downwardly from the left."

At the end of his report, Dr. Hrdlicka states: "Furthermore, it is my opinion, as stated above, that Adolph Ruth probably met his death by means of a shot from a gun." (emphasis by Joe)

You, like many others have changed one word, that being "rifle" for "gun". You have read some meaning into the "rifle" mistake. The assumptions that follow that mistake are false, as they depend on the "rifle" as a base.

Dr. Glover states on page 229 (Concerning the Hrdlicka report) of, "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz" that: ".....the man was shot to death by a shotgun or a large caliber rifle.....". While I respect Dr. Glover, and consider him a personal friend, his source is listed as: (Taken from: Kearney, "A Death in the Superstitions, The Fate of Adolph Ruth", The Journal of Arizona History.)

Many have changed the wording of Dr. Hrdlicka's report, and one of those changes turned the words,
"shot from a gun" into "shotgun". History often gets changed one word at a time. In 100 years, the entire story will likely take place in Utah.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings friends,

Cactusjumper, you surprise me - you have pointed up one of the most aggravating problems when we delve into the Lost Dutchman mine, the fact that people have been changing little bits of the story, often a single word, that leads to further MIS-speculation due to this tiny but highly significant change! In this case, the "high powered gun" could as well be a centerfire handgun, which also qualifies as a high-powered gun.

I have to agree with Randy here too, a position that most Dutch-hunters will be in disagreement with - that Adolph Ruth was NOT hunting for the mine of Jacob Waltz at all! Remember where Ruth obtained his "map" (a sketch of a particular site actually, not a true "map") had nothing to do with Jacob Waltz whatsoever.

Just a little suspicion of my own, but I wonder if what Ruth was searching for had everything to do with someone name Perillo, not Peralta and not Waltz....

Oroblanco

 

[Loke]

I may be well out on this, but ...
Did Jacob not tell Julia and/or Rhiney that he would take them to his cache(s) - and not to his mine ??
(sorry for blowing life back into such an old thread - it just seemed the most appropriate place)

 

[cactusjumper]

Per,

You are correct, Waltz'a caches were at his mine.....close. Both caches are empty at this time. I believe the mine is also empty.

Roy,

If you are going to pay attention to Julia, you need to notice where she and Rhiney, there were only the two of them, tried to start their first trip into the mountains from. They were trying to follow the exact same directions that Adolph Ruth had.

That has always seemed too much of a coincidence to me, but I could be wrong. What do the rest of you think?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Sheesh Joe I know where Tayopa is, the LDM ?? As I tried to point out on the FBI thingie, a single misinterpreted word, repeated over the years can become the Shibboleth and completely distort things.

Your approach is exactly what I did on Tayopa and what you should do here, get the scythe out and start cleaning up the chaff.

Djuicy has the right idea and is probably as correct as anyone.

It is too bad that my friend in Alaska no longer does map dowsing. He has never even been in the state of Chihuahua, let alone Tayopa, yet, he correctly id'd about 85% of the things that we had done through sat, aerial, and foot examinations, including one of the portals ??

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Loke]

... and do we know that ole Jacob actually _had_ a mine?
He just _might_ have picked up something from the Massacre Ground - others have ... and then hidden it as caches?

I presume there actually _was_ a massacre? *lol*

 

[Cubfan64]

It is too bad that my friend in Alaska no longer does map dowsing. He has never even been in the state of Chihuahua, let alone Tayopa, yet, he correctly id'd about 85% of the things that we had done through sat, aerial, and foot examinations, including one of the portals ??

RDT - that kind of thing has always "wigged me out" a bit. I mean, I have a scientific background, so it's one thing for me to try to explain and believe that someone could "dowse" on the ground on a spot and locate things of value, it's a whole "nuther ballgame" when you start talking about doing it via aerial views and maps without being anywhere near the location.

I'd have to see it to believe it personally, and even then I think I'd have a tough time not attributing it to something other than a skill.

Not to say it didn't happen the way you described it - it's just virtually impossible for me to understand and interpret.

 

[Cubfan64]

What happened to all of Randy's posts?

 

[Cubfan64]

Per,

You are correct, Waltz'a caches were at his mine.....close. Both caches are empty at this time. I believe the mine is also empty.
Roy,

If you are going to pay attention to Julia, you need to notice where she and Rhiney, there were only the two of them, tried to start their first trip into the mountains from. They were trying to follow the exact same directions that Adolph Ruth had.

That has always seemed too much of a coincidence to me, but I could be wrong. What do the rest of you think?

Take care,

Joe

Joe, Joe, Joe...

I know you believe the highlighted portion above to be true, but it's still an opinion, not a fact

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

Thanks! It's so true that my comments about Waltz's mine were just an opinion. It is, of course, not mine alone.

Randy removed his posts some time ago. Eventually he came back. Are those posts gone as well?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Cubber mi buddy& friend: I understand your point of view. To help, I suggest that you look up Henry Gross and his map dowsing for water on the island of Bermuda 'from the US'. It will cause you to pull your hair out, since it is unexplainable under today's level of knowledge. And, it is officially documented.

As one whose work falls into the scientific level, you, of all here , are well aware of the enormous difference between what we don't know, as compared to what we think that we do.

I spent over 10 years investigating this type of phenomena. I started with hypnosis then graduated accidentally into one way telepathy, proven, Radionics, and on to the Holistic Universe as I developed and learned things that conventional science still denies.

I positively proved to 'myself' that dowsing exists by trying it. I had my wife hide my wedding ring in a room, She would then leave the room and go into the kitchen where she was baking a cake. I would then enter the room and look for my ring. I found it 9 out of 10 times, proving to 'myself' that this does exist, perhaps not enough for a sceptical scientific world, but quite good enough for me to continue on to the next step of my investigations.

Explain it? To point I can, to myself, through the Holistic theory.

I can post aerial photographs of Tayopa showing what we knew compared, to what he found, but I know quite well that they cannot be verified in here, or on the net, since one can easily state that they were made up, not actual, and they could be.

You would have to take me at face value based upon my reputation for never having posted an err, ah, fib since I entered TN, but that, understandably, wouldn't be enough in most cases for most.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Ashton Page]

You are correct, Waltz'a caches were at his mine.....close. Both caches are empty at this time. I believe the mine is also empty.

Joe

Hi Joe,

Would you be willing to expand on why you believe the mine is now empty?

Thanks,
Ashton

 

[cactusjumper]

Ashton,

Happy to oblige:

Around 1985, three men rode up to the pit mine. On the way, one of them stopped and pointed out the empty holes that had contained Waltz's caches. He then took them to the pit mine, which was still, somewhat, covered. I have been told that he "was dying to open the mine up".

That information, and more, I developed on my own. I would never have known anything about that mine if not for a very good friend. He is the one who took all of the pictures and actually went into the mine. That is how I know that there is no ore left in the mine.

I was convinced that it was the LDM when I left my friends home after being shown and given all of the pictures and supporting evidence. Very few people know all of the details of the information I later developed on my own, other than my friend and two other good friends, one of them being cubfan (Paul).

Most Dutch Hunters don't believe this mine is the LDM. Those who don't believe don't have the additional facts that I have. Most of the arguements for, and against, can be found here:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1122

Take care,

Joe