Lost City of Paititi....................The greatest treasure hunt of our lifetime.

Crow

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Gidday Greg

There is much admiration in regards to ruins you found amigo. But in regards to This report, dating from 1567-1625, was discovered in the archives of the Society of Jesus (the Jesuit order) by an Italian historian and archaeologist ,Mario Polia in 2001.

As you can see there is no reference to what you infer?

But I know of an document dating back to 1590? I am going on memory mentioned kingdom of the Musus or Mojos?

Do you have any reference to any historic document to assist Old Crows memory?

Crow
 

KANACKI

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Hola Amigo Crow

You forget that map turned up. And a document that mentions the map dated i think it was 1590.

paititisearch11.jpg

However I am not sure of province that document has?

Kanacki
 
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Phil

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Gidday Amigo

You pretty much answered you question. it is nothing more than a report to the Vatican about their progress in the new world.

But there is some thing incredibly interesting about the document amigo?

Crow


Hey Crow,

So I did some more research and am so intrigued, I am diving head first down this rabbit hole. Although I am not convinced Paititi is a mine, I am confident the letter is coded.

You are very well-read. What do you know of the Jesuit code?

Phil
 

Crow

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Hey Crow,

So I did some more research and am so intrigued, I am diving head first down this rabbit hole. Although I am not convinced Paititi is a mine, I am confident the letter is coded.

You are very well-read. What do you know of the Jesuit code?

Phil

Gidday Amigo

I think amigo better you be better served to find facts first before fomenting any theories especially any alleged codes.

Crow
 

Crow

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This is one of two alleged other Jesuit doucuments in italy giving another somewhat vague description of Payitti.

The first one is called.

Exsul Immeritus Blas Valera Populo Suo (1618)
signed by Blas Valera.

book 1 1618.JPG

It gives another vague discription of Payitti.Here is an illustration below.

payitti.JPG

Paytiti: this name evokes, even today, the jungle, the lost place of the Incas and its fabulous treasures. Was the Paytiti something real, or was it a mythical utopia has been alive since at least the end of the sixteenth century or even earlier, as it suggests,

The Paytiti turns out to be according to this above document a place of the Antisuyu? And suggests it could perhaps be in the conuence between the Madre de Dios and the Beni river?

Source Reference.
EI c. 1r; Archivo Miccinelli, Nápoles
El mismo cuaderno Exsul Immeritus sigue contándonos su propia historia: el P. Valera lo terminó en Alcalá el 10 de mayo 1618, pero después de esta fecha lo


Crow
 
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Phil

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"..............he spat with great contempt in the face of the crucified Christ; and then such a miracle happened, that the crucified Christ lifted up his head, which had been bowed—as usually wooden crucifixions are carved—and lifting his head he wrathfully glared, turning his gaze and head to the right and left; and the gaze was so creepy and scary that the king and all the surrounding suite fell to the ground for three hours—"


There are three possibilities to explain this...................One, wooden crucifixions came to life and glare at people. Two, Father Lopez was chewing on coca leaves and hallucinating. Or three, the letter is coded.

As for a city full of white people in the middle of the Amazon jungle, again, Father Lopez was either chewing on coca leaves and hallucinating, or the letter is coded.
 

Crow

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Gidday Phil

Good point however we have to look through the eyes of 16th century Jesuit priest. Who may of been educated by the standards of the day. Yet was living in 16th century era that burned witches and heretics in a fanatical religious mindset, with anything other than religious doctrine was the work of the devil.

I do not think it was coca exposure? Coca leaves are still chewed today. All the workers we had all chewed the stuff. There are times I Chewed myself to help cope with altitude up on the altoplano. It is very bitter I even tried a tea brewed of stuff. But the locals love the stuff everywhere you go you see locals chewing on the stuff. Especially Bolivar and Peru.

I can only guess Father lopez was exposed to Ayahuasca, also known as yage, is a blend of two plants - the ayahuasca vine (Banisteriopsis caapi) and a shrub called chacruna (Psychotria viridis), which contains the hallucinogenic drug dimethyltryptamine (DMT). DMT - and therefore ayahuasca

Drugs, drinks, and ritual enemas were used in the sacred ceremonies practised all across Mesoamerica. Using or combining different psychoactive plants with intoxicating elixirs was also common. Consumption of many of these substances dates back to the Olmec era (1200-400 BCE). Probably even earlier?

So it would not be surprising that a religious fanatical missionary saw in a hallucination a wooden crucifixions came to life.

Even today those sacred ceremonies practices are still carried out. Although the use become somewhat a tourist attraction for backpackers these days.

_74507971_tribal.jpg

Crow
 

releventchair

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In writing accounts to a potential audience , relatability can enhance credibility. Knowing ones audience helps describe known or near known type events , or geography , ect..

Theology has parallels in writing sometimes in similar fashion.
One study had our catechism locate two stories of creation in the Bible and compare them , noting similarities but also the differences.
Were there two accounts due to inaccuracy? Or to deceive? Or was relatability by region maybe part?

Mystery is not really mystery , depending on the mystery.
Miracles are defined as , and confirmed how?
Both topics were written about. And of course unwritten accounts made thier way along as well.
It does not matter what the reader believes of what is read as far as the record existing. It's still written. That matters. (!:laughing7:)

Should a priest or one near in related field record such? In some cases , they might better do such...

Yes, the chief and subjects could have been stoned. That's an easy speculation of causing a couple hour period of being prostrate when/after inanimate turned animate.
I'd fear vulnerability , but the natives surely had that under control ,or they would not have been in the position they were.
 

Crow

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In writing accounts to a potential audience , relatability can enhance credibility. Knowing ones audience helps describe known or near known type events , or geography , ect..

Theology has parallels in writing sometimes in similar fashion.
One study had our catechism locate two stories of creation in the Bible and compare them , noting similarities but also the differences.
Were there two accounts due to inaccuracy? Or to deceive? Or was relatability by region maybe part?

Mystery is not really mystery , depending on the mystery.
Miracles are defined as , and confirmed how?
Both topics were written about. And of course unwritten accounts made thier way along as well.
It does not matter what the reader believes of what is read as far as the record existing. It's still written. That matters. (!:laughing7:)

Should a priest or one near in related field record such? In some cases , they might better do such...

Yes, the chief and subjects could have been stoned. That's an easy speculation of causing a couple hour period of being prostrate when/after inanimate turned animate.
I'd fear vulnerability , but the natives surely had that under control ,or they would not have been in the position they were.

Gidday reventchair

Some very good points amigo.

Regardless of Father lopez version of events is correct or not, it still shows that Payitti story was an an old one and not a 20th century invention nor 19th, 18th, 17th century invention. So we know for a fact that the stories of Payitti have 16th century origins at the very least.

As we know the Jesuits only arrived in the New World in 1568. 34 years after the conquest.

As for ceremonial drug use that was a cultural norm for the culture involve part of their belief system. I have no doubt they had control over their world. But we have to look in the context of clash of two cultures. There was many diseases imported by the Spanish that probably killed millions of natives that was most likely the main catalyst for the downfall of their societies. Small pox spread just like we have Covid 19 today. You can turn on the news everyday day and see the cultural impact its having on society.

As smallpox spread whole societies started to collapse through Amazon and the Andes in fact all over the new world. But this is not a new phenomena amigos the same happened in Europe until the population obtained heard immunity. Europe had its fair share of plagues as people became more socially mobile. The black death for example left thousands of villages depopulated and abandoned. Many fell into ruin and lost to history.

So Father Lopez story of visiting Payitti is not beyond the realms of possabilty?

Crow
 

Crow

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I should add once small pox was in new world tribes could even get infected by not ever having contact with white men. It would spread through trading contacts with others tribes thus spreading from tribe to tribe. Even without many ever seeing a Spaniard.

Of course the rate of spread was progressive over several years because population was not as mobile as our society today.

Crow
 

KANACKI

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Hola Crow


This document below dated 1590. Was declaring Payitti was just another example of an imaginary realm.

Capture.JPG

Even by the end of the 16th century there was doubts cast about the existence of Payitti . By the end of the 16th century the Spanish had at least 17 failed expeditions to such lost cities like gran Peitain , Payitti, El Dorado.

Many cultures have such realms. For example the word paradise and utopian dream. In Himalayas Shambala or Zanadu. In Africa was the lost realm of Prester John? Even Atlantis and of course in the bible the garden of Eden.

Was Payitti just an imaginary realm of a utopian dream or real place?

Kanacki
 

Crow

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Hola Crow


This document below dated 1590. Was declaring Payitti was just another example of an imaginary realm.

View attachment 1892208

Even by the end of the 16th century there was doubts cast about the existence of Payitti . By the end of the 16th century the Spanish had at least 17 failed expeditions to such lost cities like gran Peitain , Payitti, El Dorado.

Many cultures have such realms. For example the word paradise and utopian dream. In Himalayas Shambala or Zanadu. In Africa was the lost realm of Prester John? Even Atlantis and of course in the bible the garden of Eden.

Was Payitti just an imaginary realm of a utopian dream or real place?

Kanacki

Gidday Kanacki

Good point. Like will all these lost legendary cities its a bit like looking for a lost mines. They do not have a name on them. As we know we saw ourselves hundreds of ruins and no doubt there could be many hundreds more buried under the rain forest canopy? Regardless if they are actually not of the legendary lost cities of legend?

Yet the fact remains the Spanish did not discover or find all Inca sites.

Manco Inca’s retreat from Spanish pursuit in 1537, and his withdrawal to Vilcabamba, in the jungles of Espíritu Pampa in 1539. Many site there were lost to the jungle where the Inca held on for another 35 years until the capture and execution of Tupac Amaru Inca in 1572.Machu Picchu

TupacamaruI.JPG

Machu Picchu was a classic example of lost city being rediscovered. However some archeologists nit pick over the site being a city rather than a citadel or private residence? To me after walking around the place it looks like a city to me?

3469.jpg

Crow
 
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releventchair

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Gidday reventchair

Some very good points amigo.

Regardless of Father lopez version of events is correct or not, it still shows that Payitti story was an an old one and not a 20th century invention nor 19th, 18th, 17th century invention. So we know for a fact that the stories of Payitti have 16th century origins at the very least.

As we know the Jesuits only arrived in the New World in 1568. 34 years after the conquest.

As for ceremonial drug use that was a cultural norm for the culture involve part of their belief system. I have no doubt they had control over their world. But we have to look in the context of clash of two cultures. There was many diseases imported by the Spanish that probably killed millions of natives that was most likely the main catalyst for the downfall of their societies. Small pox spread just like we have Covid 19 today. You can turn on the news everyday day and see the cultural impact its having on society.

As smallpox spread whole societies started to collapse through Amazon and the Andes in fact all over the new world. But this is not a new phenomena amigos the same happened in Europe until the population obtained heard immunity. Europe had its fair share of plagues as people became more socially mobile. The black death for example left thousands of villages depopulated and abandoned. Many fell into ruin and lost to history.

So Father Lopez story of visiting Payitti is not beyond the realms of possabilty?

Crow

Lopez account taken by his perspective is hard to dismiss. It exists.
The subjects of Paititi /Inkarri were very real to Polia. And in the Inca timeline of developed places, to him Paititi per his account based on Lopez's account was real.

Lopez impression was/Lopez's. I can't say right or wrong about it having not delved into the site. And less yet, have not been there!

Does Inca legend agree?
10,000 plus miles are possible as the haystack. And the needle has been being sought for a while....

The Inca needed a stronghold for a king to emerge /return from. Even if it was symbolic. It was hope of sorts.
As disease was mentioned in your earlier post , that was mystery at first. Paranormal , which needed to be explained...

Euro's hear or read gold and suddenly precious metal illuminates in thier minds.
To a culture where gold was godlike on human forms , gold must also exist where the futures hope/belief in a king bringing a type of salvation.
Do those who fervently hope for a future need to see to have faith? If so they question less.
A place exists. Richness defined as gold could be defined as sunlight to some. If sunlight is thier hopes power. In the Incas case , gold was the suns sweat , and or derived from the sun god.
So gold must surely exist in the last stronghold. Or any stronghold the future was tied to. How else could such a god, or it's chosen king; now or in the future exist?
 
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Phil

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Here is an interesting fact.......................The jaguar was worshiped as a god in Peru (Incan), Mexico (Aztec), and Guatemala (Mayan). In fact, the Incans built temples to the jaguar.

In 2019, archaeologists discovered a cave below Chichén Itzá (Mayan) and found incense burners, vases, decorative plates with the faces of ancient gods, and other religious icons. The treasure was found in a network of underground tunnels known as Balamku — "Jaguar God".

In the Quechuan language (Incan) the word Paititi means "Home of the Jaguar Father".


If the Jaguar God lived underground................It is reasonable to speculate the Jaguar Father did as well.
 

KANACKI

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Gidday Crow

Our Time here is up amigo. Monday 11 Jan. We are in.

Kanacki
 
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Here is an interesting fact.......................The jaguar was worshiped as a god in Peru (Incan), Mexico (Aztec), and Guatemala (Mayan). In fact, the Incans built temples to the jaguar.

In 2019, archaeologists discovered a cave below Chichén Itzá (Mayan) and found incense burners, vases, decorative plates with the faces of ancient gods, and other religious icons. The treasure was found in a network of underground tunnels known as Balamku — "Jaguar God".

In the Quechuan language (Incan) the word Paititi means "Home of the Jaguar Father".


If the Jaguar God lived underground................It is reasonable to speculate the Jaguar Father did as well.

Hello Phil

I also did see several websites claiming that Paititi means "Home of the Jaguar Father".

However out of curiosity I checked various Quechua dictionary sources.

In Quechua "otorongo" means jaguar. " Tayta" mean father. "Wasi means Home/ house/ abode in Quechua.

Searching through the Quechua dictionary for Paititi there seems no words to be at all connected with the Quechua language or in Aymara language. If Paititi means "Home of the Jaguar Father" it is not in the Quechua language as so claimed.

But perhaps an amazonian language? Not an Inca Quechua one.

Amy
 

KANACKI

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Hello Phil

I also did see several websites claiming that Paititi means "Home of the Jaguar Father".

However out of curiosity I checked various Quechua dictionary sources.

In Quechua "otorongo" means jaguar. " Tayta" mean father. "Wasi means Home/ house/ abode in Quechua.

Searching through the Quechua dictionary for Paititi there seems no words to be at all connected with the Quechua language or in Aymara language. If Paititi means "Home of the Jaguar Father" it is not in the Quechua language as so claimed.

But perhaps an amazonian language? Not an Inca Quechua one.

Amy

Hola Amy hows those two fine lads of yours going?

Kanacki
 

KANACKI

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My apologies I did not want to derail the topic.

Kanacki
 

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