Map explanations please

[Crow]

There is a spanish version of events in regards to Ruggles search for the alleged Church treasure .Ruggles ripped up the floor of that church in 1927 and found nothing. He got on the wrong side of the locals and was forced to leave Tayopa.

Some claim the present church is not the site of Jesuit church. Its not the case. the present church was rebuilt over the ruins of the original Capilla in 1919.

Crow

 

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[Crow]

There has been efforts by junior exploration mining company to explore ancient mine sites in the area around the Tayopa mining district.

They have explored ancient mines workings that was extensively mined.

The ore body below was high in Silver a litle bit of copper and lead but low in gold

Silver bars was found below.

You can see weight

Below is part of ore grinding mill.

While indeed some of these mines was once very rich in small pockets. The question remain if many of these historic mines are economical for mining in a modern world?

Crow

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Crow,

Could it be that the rebuilding of the church over the old ruins was just a clever way to remove a treasure undercover? Working inside the new church while it was closed off while they dug it out claiming they were working on the interior?
Homar

There is a spanish version of events in regards to Ruggles search for the alleged Church treasure .Ruggles ripped up the floor of that church in 1927 and found nothing. He got on the wrong side of the locals and was forced to leave Tayopa.

Some claim the present church is not the site of Jesuit church. Its not the case. the present church was rebuilt over the ruins of the original Capilla in 1919.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Alas Amigo how I wish it to be so. In respectful memory our dear esteemed amigo Don Jose.

Tayopa was a real mining district and indeed places and names went through the course of time name changes in a evolutionary process of abandonment and resettlement.

The story about Jesuit treasure came about much later. The real story of Tayopa was about abandoned mines from Indian uprisings. All the early searches was about the mines not the alleged Jesuit treasure. It only in 20th century the Jesuit treasure story became added to the Tayopa story.

Custard was a poor American meat worker in Mexico with his Mexican Wife tried selling maps to gringos in 1927 to get enough Money to flee to the United States. That is why we have several versions of the maps. The Jesuit treasure story was meshed around the real lost Tayopa mine story. Ruggles bought into Jesuit legend as told by Custard in 1927. Ruggles went Guadelope de Tayopa where he got introuble digging up the floor of newly restored chaple in 1919, and Ruggles told Dobie in 1928 and a Jesuit treasure legend was born.

Henry Flipper employed by mining magnate William Greene found documents proving Guaynopa, Guaynopia and Tayopa mining camps existed. The Spanish mines was abandoned because of various Indian uprisings. It had nothing to do with the Jesuits being expelled.

And that was some thing our esteemed friend Don Jose could never shake his belief with? I wondered for years why he always said about opening the mine. And not recovering this alleged Jesuit treasure near the chaple? The site was never a major Jesiut collage or church.

I and the rest trio plus Amy had enormous respect for Don Jose. However we had access to resources undreamed of by Don Jose. Amy even went in Vatican. Hardluck went to Mexico in search of the documents. yet the more we found the more we contradicted some of Don Jose's claims, A man who has spent his life dreaming that he discovered Tayopa which indeed he may as many people before him. But it was not the lost mines but the alleged Jesuit connection led him astray.

We tried on Don Jose's behalf with two different mining exploration companies companies to look at his mining lease. Indeed he found old mine workings but they are one of many scattered around Sonora.

I had long conversations with our friend Don Jose in Private emails. Even through our private emails he conceded many things that he never posted on Tnet. Some times my friends its just best to let the legend live and some where with a little nostalgic sadness I see Don Jose going off into sun after his Tayopa.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Gidday amigos.

It was Henry Flipper employed by mining magnate William Greene who found the full name of Tayopa? Guadelupe de Tayopa in Marriage banns records. One some maps due to Space restrictions in writing the name it is written as Guadaloupe droping "de Tayopa" Carl Surer found baptismal records of Guadalupe de Tayopa in the Church of Bacadeguachi. Thus confirming the full name of Tayopa.

Here is the Kino map 1698 - 1701 below yow will see the mission of Guadaloupe.

Here is a map showing Guadaloupe in 1769 as a mission. So even when the Jesuits was expelled the small mission was still there.

Now even Don Jose said these missions was rather small? A church and a house built next to it and perhaps a cura. Most other building would of been of wood or mud brick. Never a great cathedral as other larger settlements. you can see the building below.

Now look to the following map. 1806. The x's represent mining activity around Guadalupe. Interesting if you look to south you will see Canyon Colardo. This is the site where Don Jose discovered old mining activity and believed in these back fill mine shafts silver was hidden.

In this map below dated 1823 activating mining was still going on even at Don Jose's rediscovered mine site. But the The Mexican War of Independence was an armed conflict and political process resulting in Mexico's independence from Spain. It was not a single, coherent event, but local and regional struggles that occurred within the same time period, and can be considered a revolutionary civil war 16 Sept 1810 – 27 Sept 1821. By then the power vacuum left by departing Spanish left the region open to invasion by the Apache.

So by 1850 the Tayopa are and its mines became a lost mine legend grew over time. Tayopa was never lost and was in time like the fist time it was abandoned was re inhabited.

So my apologies Research Guy I have digressed a little from you question about the maps you posted about. The maps and various versions of it had mines was highly stylistic and not an accurate description was was actually there. For example the mines listed did not have the full names no was they surrounding Tayopa in a neat horse shoe of mines. They was rather scattered some quite few miles away. Not all of them was operating at the same time.

The Border of Sonora and Chihuahua has indeed was rather liquid and moved back an forth over the years, So indeed John white is partly right that at one time the mines was in Chihuahua. In fact records of the mines are in records in Chihuahua testaments that in one period the mines was in the boundary of Chihuahua. However today the mines are Sonora today.

Amy found several documents to some of the mines. She posted some here a few years ago.

I should add in Maximilian's time he had hired a french mining engineer to survey the taypoa mining district. He was the source of the stylised maps the mines was rough map to locate the mines from the still standing Jesuit Church of Guadalupe de Tayopa. The church was never a buried treasure site. That was a story that evolved much later. This mining egineer gave a map to a priest who sheltered him in the caos of the collapse of Maximilian's rule. Later copies of that map was transformed into jesuit treasure connection.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Gidday amigos

Some of the mines today filled or party caved in back filled or flooded with water. As you can see below.

Back fill and mine debris litter the tunnels.

Lower tunnels have progressively flooded. Anyone looking to explore deeper needs to bare the cost to dewater the mine.

In the picture below you can see the stope where miners in the past has followed the ore body. Some supporting timber pit props remain.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Guadalupe de Tayopa in the Province of Ostimuri. went through series abandonment. But so did other settlements. Baroyeca is located northeast of Ciudad Obregón, and can only be reached with four-wheel drive vehicles, being well located through Google Maps.

It was a mining town founded in 1701 and its name means ‘Perico's Nose in the Cahite language’, geographically located in its time in the Province of Ostimuri.

Historians narrate how important it became that in 1720 the headquarters of the Mayor's Office of Ostimuri moved to that place, with Miguel de Lucenilla being the founder and resident as mayor of that province.

Other ranches were also founded around it, such as Cabora, owned by Juan Martín Bernal; the Tosimuri y Vasitos, by José Campoy, the Aquihuiqui ranch, by Nicolás Félix Romero and the Cedros ranch, by Miguel de Lucenilla himself.

In turn it was a important church for the Jesuits in the Province of Ostimuri. you can see the ruins below.

There is at least 7 maybe more of these these historic mining settlements abandoned throughout Mexico. Many churches and ex Jesuit mission fell in disuse abandoned not just by Indian attack and other conflicts through history but also by the common fact the ore ran out the population dwindled away and the settlement died. Some recovered and resettled like Guadalupe de Tayopa? Others became over grown forgotten ruins.

Guadalupe de Tayopa was perhaps the most famous

Crow

 

[KANACKI]

Hola Amigos

The trouble with the Tayopa story too many lost treasure legends got added during the early 20th century. And that became more important than the mine site itself. One endearing one was huge cache of silver hidden in a mine.? Don amigo was obsessed with that story and back filled mine he discovered.

Even Adrian Westwood belived in this story?

In his search for Tayopa and Guaynopa and Guyanopita silver mines. He explored Guaynopa and Guyanopita silver mines.

With his letter below he also believed the story of hidden silver in an abandoned mine.

Here is a picture of the mine they believed had a hidden side tunnel with a cache of silver bars.

Here is remaining buildings of Guaynopa.

Some stone ruins still exist.

Some are virtually down to foundation level.

As you can see amigo you have to look hard how much the site has blended into environment.

But even so in 1905 Guaynopa was reworked for a time but banditory and various revolutions make operating the mine too risky. 200 thousand dollars of silver extracted in 1905.

Littleorphannie posted several years ago the following.

hi ,i live in mexico ,and know something of the guaynopa mines . they are currently under valid claim(2010). the claimholders are a group of four young prospectors/geologists who live in maders sonora. they are really nice people and have compiled an impressive collection of history about the site. they are currently trying to promote interest /investment, for their project. although they "have something" , in my opinion the remotness of the mine, lack of infrastructure, and the fact there is so much silver here in mexico for the taking ,with equal volumne and values, i doubt if they will ever get it going. the biggest thing in its favor is the "legend that goes with it", if it were mine id try to work it ,on a small scale. but my guess is that youd need half a million dollars to start and explosive permits, its easier to get the half million dollars than for a small miner to get explosive permits right now in mexico. im guessing you'd have to wait two years. the ore looks good, many companies have gone out there to take a look. i have the claim owners phone number and email if youre interested

I was shown by Don Jose a Canadian junior exploration company was interested in looking at both sites Don Jose Site as well as the then present mining lease owner of Guaynopa. But in the end that switched there focus to a project in Bolivia.

So in effect both sites as far as I know is at a stand still. Don Jose mine site was actually part of Colando mine workings left his mining lease lapse a few years ago as it was under his wives name. Technically now the mining lease is open for any one who wants to claim it.

Kanacki

 

[Crow]

Gidday Amigos

The fact remains many mining areas was abandoned all over northern Mexico and into Arizona and New Mexico due to uprisings. settlements came and went churches came and went with the population. The Jesuits abandoned churches during the 1767 Expulsion. There is another under lying factor largely forgotten. While in there was flowing across the mountains many mining sites with very rich veins Low sulphidation epithermal Au + Cu + Ag deposits. As soon as the accessible veins was mined the mines themselves was abandoned. Mexico, New Mexico, Arizona is full of abandoned mines when the easy ore ran out. Settlement depending on these mines became abandoned too. Churches with no parishioners soon became abandoned too. So came and went the eb and flow of settlement and abandonment. The prlobem with "lost" term was quite confusing because they had been rediscovered several times over and over. A french engineer 30 years after taopa was abandoned. Flipper found 420 abanded mine sites in 1889 including Guaynopa, But this does not include the local population occasional inhibited these old mining settlements.

Crow

 

[KANACKI]

Hola Crow

Interesting to note.

Lieutenant Henry O. Flipper might well have been correct about the “Santa Fe de Rodríquez” being the name of what is now called Guaynopa. However, an Indian named Agustín de la Cruz, who was associated with Cristóbal Rodríquez, is credited with discovering the mine in 1741. It is probable that the Spanish settlement had indeed been found because of its rather extensive ruins.

Kanacki

 

[Crow]

Gidday Amigos

I had many private conversations with Don Jose. Ideally with historic "Colanado Mine" and camp in the steep canyon of the same name which flows into the river Mayo. To the nortwest wwas Tayopa that flows into Yaqui. which our esteemed Don Jose RE discovered those workings. We offered to help him get in contact with junior exploration mining company looking to discover a large ore body at the site.

The deal would of been to allow the junior mining company to do the expiration for free on his lease with the provision if a provable resource discovered or developed he would be given 1% of mineral processed as mining lease holder. He resisted and I could not understand why? For example if the life of mine produced 356 million dollars he would of had 3,6 million in royalties for doing nothing.

However we soon found out the lease was in Berta his wife's name and the fees had lapsed. When she died he could not sign a deal even if he wanted to because it was not his name on a lapsed mining lease..

Sadly in the end all those years of toil ended in a fading dream. Somewhere that is lesson for for all amigos. Time is the enemy of us all.

Crow

 

[JohnWhite]

There are some things in life that are worth much more than cash…Hell I still claim that cash and credit are the mark of ,Solomon, the beast…

But what do I know I have even claimed to have found Santa Fe among other treasure tales as well…lol

IF anyone decides too meet my price…I will share what I know with them…

Ed T

 

[KANACKI]

Hola Amigo

John indeed there are things that do not have a price like true love family etc. However god does not pay the bills amigo. God does not come to rescue when your electricity or phone being cut off or rent. While indeed its does not take much to be comfortable. Money is economic necessity in our physical world regardless if we like it or not?

That is how it is....

There are hundreds of people who claim they have found this or that, but is it just all an ego trip for them to say so?

To command price amigo higher than what the alleged ore body suggests either two things 1. either you have nothing to legitimately claim to. Or 2 you have expectations way beyond the actual value.

No mining company is going to give you a deal they cannot profit from.

My guess you will never profit from your claims and from what ever discoveries you have or allegedly made will die with you. So what is the point of making such profanities in the first place?

If you really claim that cash and credit are the mark of ,Solomon, the beast…then why bother in the first place to waste your time searching for lost mines and deposits?

Life is way too short amigo and enjoy the opportunities life has to offer.

Kanacki

 

[Crow]

Gidday Kanacki

The cold reality its just another abandoned mine many people find. Just because you find it does not mean you have mineral rights to it. There is one simple equation if the extraction cost is more than the value per ton rock removed then it best to leave it in the ground. Profit margin has to be worth your effort to cope with fluctuating commodity prices.

Mining game is played on that ruthless equation.

Crow

 

[JohnWhite]

I am a simple man kanacki…I do not require all that much to be happy…IF worse comes to worse I can always pitch a tent on some prime Texas land…Jeff bezos is one of my neighbors…

Anyhow…I believe the Jesuits hid Santa Fe so well due to the treasures it contains…I really don’t have any idea of what said treasures might be but due to all of the treasure legends associated with it…I believe it must be one heck of a treasure…

One can only dream…I do not need any treasures knacki…I believe I can continue to survive until God decides it is time for him to take me away…I believe I have received my white stone with my new name Dagesh and that is enough treasure for me…

Who knowsMaybe some day My Father will reward me with riches of man but I do not mind if he does not…I don’t believe I need 666 talents of gold, as a certain king did, to live…

Only time will tell what God has in store for me kanacki…I am still trying to make my way back to Reno to prospect for some more quartz…lol

Ed T

 

[gollum]

Okay, all you degenerates know me and what I think of most of this subject.

The Old Tayopa Complex was solely a large set of Silver Mines (as Kanacki and Crown have shown).

Here is what I believe happened in the year or so prior to 1am of 25 June 1767;

Even if the Nueva Vizcaya Jesuits didn't have any SECRET KNOWLEDGE of the upcoming expulsion and suppression, all they had to do was look at what was happening to the Order worldwide. They were being rounded up, arrested, and deported from almost everywhere they were performing missionary work. This was because when they didn't see a King or Prime Minister as being Catholic ENOUGH, they involved themselves in plots to unseat/overthrow/and even assassinate them. Any wonder? Well, they saw what happened in Portugal and its colonies in 1759. They saw what happened in France in 1764, and they may very well have gotten advance notice of what was coming as King Charles III (Spain) began the arrests and deportations from Spanish Lands in Europe in April of 1767 (a good two months prior to the same thing in Nueva Vizcaya).

Since Nueva Vizcaya was broken up into Rectorates by the Church, each Rectorate had its own Colegio (Jesuit College) and Cabecera (Head or Headquarters). I believe that when the New World Jesuits got word of their upcoming arrests and deportations, each Rectorate was tasked with hiding the wealth belonging to that Rectorate. It was all very last minute, and could very well be the reason for Jesuit Treasure Stories all over the Western Hemisphere. Much of the wealth of the Jesuit Order was detailed by several Jesuit Fathers in their Relacions (Journals). It is also a fact that in 1768, when Father Junipero Serra (Franciscan) was tasked with founding and establishing the California Missions, he was given carte-blanche to take anything he needed from what was left when the Jesuits were arrested the year before. He inventoried what he found. NO WEALTH. It is also a fact that when the Spanish Authorities arrested the Jesuits, almost no fluid wealth(fluid wealth = cash, jewels, ingots, and the like) was found. We know that Jesuit Treasure exists because of newspaper articles regarding the giant cache of wealth found in the cellars beneath the old Jesuit College in Rio de Janiero, Brazil:

So, with that being said, the few people that likely knew the locations of the cache sites died between the two forced marches across Mexico, and the slaveship-like conditions of their cruise to Europe. This would explain why the Rio Cache sat from 1759 until 1891. It is also why you will NEVER find any written Church records of any of the hidden wealth. Only found items that can be back-tracked to Jesuit Ownership/Markings.

Now, I don't know if a Jesuit Cache was buried in the old mines at Tayopa, but it is possible. Another link I found was another verification for the existence of Tayopa, and its links to what is on a different Tayopa Complex Map. "FATHER OROZCO" is written on the face of the Church itself. The Church Father was supposed to have been a convicted murderer that gave his life to God. He cast the bells for Tayopa. I found records of a man named Orozco who was a miner/metal worker by profession who murdered another man regarding something to do with ownership of a mine. IIRC his full name was Luis Orozco. I might be wrong about his first name (without digging), as I remember a buddy when I was in the Navy named Orozco (and his first name MIGHT have been Luis LOL).

Mike

 

[releventchair]

Relics can turn up....

A letter of Bishop Young, of Erie, August 6, 1855 states: “About the year 1804 a small silver chalice or ciborium was exhumed at Waterford, near the remains of the fort (French Fort Le Bouef.) This a certain pious Catholic, a Mrs. Van Kirk, is said to have possessed herself of to preserve it from desecration, and took it with her when she subsequently migrated to some locality further down the river.

Monstrance fished from reservoir centerpiece of new adoration chapel - Catholic Review

A man fishing at the Loch Raven Reservoir in north Baltimore County some two decades ago was convinced he had snagged a big fish when his line hooked something substantial.After reeling in his haul, the angler had no fish. He had, however, caught something even more remarkable: a large Gothic...

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