More LUE map sightings and clues

aw11mr2

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May 14, 2015
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Where is the San Francisco Peak?
On page 199 of the Treasure Hunter’s Manual #6 (Revised 1973 Edition) is a photo of a rock cairn which Karl von Mueller identifies as a “Spanish Marker.” The descriptive text states: “This is a typical Spanish pointer. Thousands of these are known to exist in an area extending south from Salida, Colorado to Central America. In various areas, when certain combinations of these markers are coordinated they locate, exactly, Spanish Mines, smelteries, and caching sites. The Spanish never smeltered the ore at the mine. This explains the large smeltery near San Francisco Peak and another at Ft. Sumner.” For the sake of discussion, I placed the “San Francisco Peak” smeltery near Francisco Peak in Colorado and Ft. Sumner smeltery is placed at Fort Sumner, New Mexico. Can anyone share the name of a book, article, or reference that provides evidence of these ancient smelters?

Location Map 4 Jpeg.jpg

If ore was smelted near Francisco Peak, locally sourced coal could be used to fire the furnace. The ingots could have been cached in the area until sufficient transportation (slaves and/or mules) is acquired. Ft. Sumner is located next to the Pecos River. A potential transportation route would be along the Pecos River to the Rio Grande River and the Texas Gulf Coast.
 
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aw11mr2

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May 14, 2015
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LUE Clues Books.jpg

Old Bookaroo already mentioned this book in a previous post. Treasure Galore by Fred Dorick (Revised January 1970), contains a chapter on the LUE map. Mr. Dorick says that after two and a half years of investigation and nine visits to the LUE area, he believes the map is a hoax. A curious note: The book is cited in the Journals of El Dorado by Estee Conatser and Karl von Mueller, 1977. The citation indicates the first edition was published in June 1969 in Segundo, Colorado. The revised edition was published in Dallas, Texas. I don’t know whether the LUE is mentioned in the first edition.

Of Men and Gold – The History and Evidence of Spanish Gold Mines in the West, by Stephen B. Shaffer, 2013 (Revised edition). A rough copy of the map is printed on page 26. The book briefly mentions that the LUE map is associated with a branch of the Peralta family (related to the Peraltas of Lost Dutchman Mine fame). Mr. Shaffer states that in 1865, Ute Indians massacred all people and animals of a pack train in Utah. The map was found among the remains.

The Preface (page xiv) in the Treasure Hunter’s Manual #7 by Karl von Mueller (1966 & 1972 editions) says in part, “To S.T. Conatser I am indebted with sincere appreciation and an E+ for highly skilled research . . .” Estee is likely the pen name for Shirley T. Conatser. Unfortunately, I read that she passed away. The Sterling Legend – The Facts Behind the Lost Dutchman Mine, by Estee Conatser (1972), contains an Introduction written by Karl von Mueller. KvonM writes in part, “The author, . . . one of the founders of the Prospectors Club of Southern California” and “Both the author and her husband are successful coinshooters” and “She was one of the very first to understand and solve the LUE map and probably one of only two or three to interpret the IAYAYAM key.”
 

Old Bookaroo

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Dec 4, 2008
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Dorick's work has two pages (plus the map) on the LUE. There really isn't any useful information here. The first and second editions of his book have the same information. He moved to Segundo and published his little book there. I think at some point he and KvonM had a bit of a falling out. I know later, Karl wrote that Dorick's information on the LUE wasn't accurate. What little there is.

Dorick's book includes yarns copied from Ken Krippene's worthless book, and his treasure symbols are stolen directly from Dobie's classic Coronado's Children - or from another "author" who took them first.

Somewhere in Karl's scattered writings about the LUE is a reference to Bureau of Ethnology Report (Washington, DC) that told the story. I remember reading it, but I can't provide a cite to the source.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo
 

Ryano

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Feb 16, 2014
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aw11mr2 - I have looked in the BAE Bulletin Library (and still looking) but if anyone is familiar with these publications it will be no surprise that there is little to no mention of Spanish activity. These journals and reports by 19th/20th century ethnologists have a steely focus on all things Native. The idea that the Spanish were mining gold in 17th Colorado (either by themselves or via enslavement of Indians) doesn't appear to be mainstream thought in these publications which makes me wonder what the "glaring" referral is that KVM mentioned.

Maybe someone else will see evidence of it in these books but I have not.
 

Ryano

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BAE bulletin “Ruins of Southwest Colorado” (I’ll edit later with precise title and vol #) focuses a chapter on the Yellow Jacket Canyon area and the mix of tower architecture (square vs round, quality of construction, placement). Also noted are kivas and stone circles of undetermined purpose. I suspect this may be evidence of Spanish mining (arrastras, smelters) built near Native settlement. The study was done late 1890’s and perhaps the author wasn’t trained to recognize an arrastra ? Need to follow up with a more modern survey of this site and learn if the interpretation has changed. “Sun Temple at Yellowjacket Canyon” is the site. Anyway, just thought it could be one of the “glaring” references that KVM said would only be perceptible to those in the know.. i.e. the Spanish had gold-mining industry in New World etc.
 
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Ryano

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Randy can you comment on Steve Shaffer’s book Of Men and Gold and where he got the story that the Lue Map is Peralta-related ? Also I think it is Shaffer who calls the Lue “pastures of gold”.
 

Randy Bradford

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Jun 27, 2004
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Randy can you comment on Steve Shaffer’s book Of Men and Gold and where he got the story that the Lue Map is Peralta-related ? Also I think it is Shaffer who calls the Lue “pastures of gold”.

Not a clue, that's the only time I have seen the LUE map mentioned in that context.

Shaffer's book "Of Men and Gold" is sort of a 2 for 1 volume, much of it is about a mine/cache site at Hoyt Peak in Northern Utah. The remainder is devoted to treasure symbols and interpretation, using mostly examples likewise from northern Utah. Shaffer's mention of the LUE is brief and appears, as one can surmise, simply as an example of a treasure map early in the book. I don't have my copy handy but I don't recall him saying more than a sentence or two about the map.

Interestingly, you occasionally see what I call the "annotated" LUE map in these groups. It has symbols penciled in on the outer margins. I'm pretty sure Steve Shaffer first brought this version of the map to light in the mid to late 1990s, right here on the OLD Treasurenet message boards back when they were just big thread trees on a largely unorganized board.

While I'm about 99.99% sure the LUE has nothing whatsoever to do with Utah, it's worth noting that Karl von Mueller indicated information could be found about it in the Daughter of the Utah Pioneers archives (I'd have to check his exact reference here). It's also not commonly known that Karl lived in Salt Lake City briefly in the late 1950s/early 1960s after he left California. He also published a paper in SLC briefly called "The Adventure Bulletin" before moving to Nebraska and publishing "The Exanimo Express".
 

Randy Bradford

Sr. Member
Jun 27, 2004
433
751
Dorick's work has two pages (plus the map) on the LUE. There really isn't any useful information here. The first and second editions of his book have the same information. He moved to Segundo and published his little book there. I think at some point he and KvonM had a bit of a falling out. I know later, Karl wrote that Dorick's information on the LUE wasn't accurate. What little there is.

Dorick's book includes yarns copied from Ken Krippene's worthless book, and his treasure symbols are stolen directly from Dobie's classic Coronado's Children - or from another "author" who took them first.

Somewhere in Karl's scattered writings about the LUE is a reference to Bureau of Ethnology Report (Washington, DC) that told the story. I remember reading it, but I can't provide a cite to the source.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo
Interesting piece here Bookaroo, but you're mistaken in a big way.

1st Edition was published in Segundo by Dorick, who also had an article in the first on the revised NPGs (Volume 6 Issue 1). His 1st edition write up of the LUE consists only of the map and several sentences combining information from Johnny Pounds "The Treasure Hunter" about symbol interpretation and a few passages taken straight from the write up in THM7 by Karl von Mueller. His introduction in the 1st edition also urges readers to buy THM7 and praises the Exanimo Establishment and Karl von Mueller.

Dorick republishes Treasure Galore only 6 months later, now out of Dallas, Texas, as a 2nd Edition. This new edition omits all references to Karl and his business in the introduction and commits about a page of text condemning the LUE but offering very little information about it.

I wrote the following, which was published in Paul Tainter's Treasure Hunter's Express, outlining much of my criticism of Dorick and his ilk:

It is worth noting that in later issues when Karl talks about the “old timers,” he never (as best I can tell) mentions Fred Dorick. All signs point to a falling out between Karl and Dorick, with Dorick adding the LUE into the 2nd edition as a way of “sticking it to” Karl. This is speculation on my part…purely…but I also think the pieces fit.

This is about the same time that a number of other things happened pointing to hard feelings in the treasure hunting fraternity. Until about this same time, Karl had been publishing “Karl’s Korner” (Essentially “Ask Exanimo) in John Latham’s True Treasure. After about 8 or so issues, Karl’s column disappears and reappears not long after with (I believe) Thomas Penfield at the helm. Karl’s departure is never acknowledged by Latham or Karl.

Around the same time as well, Thomas Hilton’s piece on the LUE, enormously critical of the story, appears in True Treasure and Latham makes several comments in his magazine about the treasure being false. Karl in turn publishes (NPG Vol. 6 #2) a lengthy article and references authors, publishers, and critics without specifying, though it’s clearly directed at Hilton and Latham. My suspicion is that Dorick ”fell in” with Latham and Hilton.

About Dorick’s comments, let me specifically address what you published because that’s what Dorick wrote on the LUE in its entirety in the 2nd edition of Treasures Galore. A few thoughts on what he wrote...

1) Dorick states, ”only two men have discovered the secret of the map.” Karl’s first statement printed with the map was that “Only two people have been able to decipher it…” It is a small distinction but an important one – there is a difference between deciphering the map and recovering any treasure. Dorick also overlooks the fact that Treasure Hunter’s Manual #7 was first published in 1966, 5 years before he wrote his piece on the LUE, and ample time for others to make recoveries.

2) Dorick mentions the cache being worth $40 million, a figure first introduced by Thomas Hilton and a figure that Karl never suggested. More to the point, Dorick (and Hilton) both suggest that the LUE is a single cache; Karl maintained in nearly all his communication on the LUE that there were many caches.

3) Dorick mentions a booklet in the works but omits a title or author. Interestingly, Karl did the same thing, perhaps about the same book?

4) Dorick says, “The map is basically simple to figure out. I know of several different methods that can be used to work it, every one of which will take you to the same location!” In his own book, doing his best to discredit the LUE, he states how easy the map is to solve yet declines to demonstrate it. He has free reign to put his money where his mouth is and doesn’t. I think that’s very telling. He also has every opportunity to state and describe WHERE he believes the map directs the reader but doesn’t. Also very telling. Why keep this information to himself, especially since he’s convinced the treasure is a fake?

5) Dorick continues, “I have been in the LUE area on nine different occasions myself and must admit that I found nothing.” If you thought the map was a fake, why would you go back eight more times after the first time? What happened in between those visits that made him want to keep going to the same area looking for a treasure he didn’t believe in?

Ultimately Dorick had a clear playing field to present details, evidence, and substance to establish and support his conclusions. Instead, he relies on the broadest, vaguest, and flimsiest methods to make an argument. He had nothing preventing him from putting the LUE to rest once and for all but relied on innuendo rather than facts and details. It feels like a hit piece, and if Dorick had an axe to grind I’d submit he wore it clear down to the handle.
 

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