need help identifying indian artifacts origin

SkySaint

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This artifact was found outside of Belleville, IL in 1934 while my great grandfather was tilling a garden with a push cultivator outside of his house. Along with the rock were arrow tips and a broken spear with these items. After contacting the Cahokia Museum about these items they replied back saying that they do not believe it is neither Cahokia nor Mississippian in origin. I really have no idea where to go for more information after the museum told me that it was not of their decent. Can anyone help me figure out its origin so I may find the proper place to donate it?

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The Grim Reaper

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I'm definitely not an expert. And I don't usually put my two cents worth in because I'm not. But this time I will. Your second stone looks like Hopewell origin, or as they are often called "Mound builders" Which ancestors came from Israel. Many of the artifacts found in the Hopewell mounds which are all over North America but most heavily in Illinois and Ohio and some of the Midwestern states. It looks like the ornaments around the neck could represent copper which the Hopewell Indians were proficient with. They were also proficient with cement. In Ohio there is a mound which has the same angles and shape as the Pyramids of Egypt. However it dwarfs the pyramids. Look them up on YouTube.
There is also a museum I think in Ohio for the Hopewell Indians. They have expert archeologist which could tell you. At the museum they have swords from mass graves found at some of the mounds. With head plates and breast plates made from copper. A more advanced civilization from Israel. The mounds are often shaped in the form of A menorah or the tea lamp that the Israelites used. From an aerial view some of the mounds depict stars and planet movements. At one mound there was a cement box that was found and cut open. And it was a statue of Moses with the 10 Commandments around it. Dated 300 years before the Bible had reached America. According to most archaeologist Hopewell Indians were here around 600 BC to 400 A.D.
I would suggest looking up that museum for the Hopewell Indians and talking to somebody there. The second stone definitely looks Jewish in nature.
Regards, Steve


The Hopewell Culture came from Israel?? You can't be serious. You really need to study the Hopewell a little more in depth.
 

releventchair

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The great lakes area's natives had a creature that was related to water, a mythological cause for rough waves and other dangers..
The Mishipeshu, or underwater panther.
022-3003.jpg

Farther west the panther still was a part of mythology.

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Mark Todd

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I'm definitely not an expert. And I don't usually put my two cents worth in because I'm not. But this time I will. Your second stone looks like Hopewell origin, or as they are often called "Mound builders" Which ancestors came from Israel. Many of the artifacts found in the Hopewell mounds which are all over North America but most heavily in Illinois and Ohio and some of the Midwestern states. It looks like the ornaments around the neck could represent copper which the Hopewell Indians were proficient with. They were also proficient with cement. In Ohio there is a mound which has the same angles and shape as the Pyramids of Egypt. However it dwarfs the pyramids. Look them up on YouTube.
There is also a museum I think in Ohio for the Hopewell Indians. They have expert archeologist which could tell you. At the museum they have swords from mass graves found at some of the mounds. With head plates and breast plates made from copper. A more advanced civilization from Israel. The mounds are often shaped in the form of A menorah or the tea lamp that the Israelites used. From an aerial view some of the mounds depict stars and planet movements. At one mound there was a cement box that was found and cut open. And it was a statue of Moses with the 10 Commandments around it. Dated 300 years before the Bible had reached America. According to most archaeologist Hopewell Indians were here around 600 BC to 400 A.D.
I would suggest looking up that museum for the Hopewell Indians and talking to somebody there. The second stone definitely looks Jewish in nature.
Regards, Steve

Hi DEAP, hey you'll need to be careful looking at "u tube" for documentable information a lot of it's just intended to be funny or a hoax. You'll be more than hard pressed to find a respectable archeologist that believes Israel has anything whatsoever to do with Hopewell culture. There have been some hoax finds that were perpetrated on the public over the last century and a half, but they have been proven false along long time ago, however they still live on, on the Internet. Kind of like those who don't believe a jet crashed into the Pentagon on 9/11.
As for the larger than any Egyptian pyramid thing, I presume your referring to the earthen structure called "Monks mound" in Illinois at the Cahokia site near Collinsville . I'm pretty sure that it is the largest known prehistoric monument in terms of cubic feet and tonnage known in the world. Best regards DEAP
MT
 

Charl

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The section headed "Alternative Explanations" at this link discusses some of the misguided ideas attached to the subject of the mound builders in the United States. Well into the 19th century, before the advent of scientific archaeology, many believed the mounds were the work of one or more of the 12 Lost Tribes of Israel. This fascination with interpreting Native American features as the products of Old World cultures began very, very early. Dighton Rock, well known petroglyph site in Ma., was interpreted by Puritan scholars like Cotton Mather as being an inscription left by ancient Phonecians from the Near East.

Mound-builders | Project Gutenberg Self-Publishing - eBooks | Read eBooks online

This is really bad archaeology:

The Lost Tribes of Israel - Bad Archaeology
 

Charl

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And here is a longer essay on the so-called "mound builder controversy". The fact is the belief that the mounds were the product of cultures from the Old World, esp. Israelites, was quite widespread. But we are long past those days. However, out of place artifacts, have been found with alleged Old World inscriptions. Though most are regarded as fakes.

REVISITING THE MOUND
 

Charl

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One of the most outrageous claims in fairly recent years involves an alleged cave in Illinois, called Burrows Cave, and said to be the repository of ancient artifacts from all over the Eastern Mediterranean. Most experience collectors, upon seeing these images on stone, find them to be obviously faked, looking modern, without patina, etc.


https://sites.google.com/site/ancientegyptiansinamerica/ancient-egyptians-burrows-cave

http://www.dispatch.com/content/sto...-illinois-and-other-archaeological-myths.html
 

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Still a cool post. My ancestors are not one of the lost tribes of Israel, cast out by a vengeful God who turned their skin brown, regardless what Brigham Young or anybody else says. And I believe we have been here far longer than the archy's say. (Of course, it would be kinda nice if we turned up a grave or two similar to that Lucy over in Africa. That 'oral tradition' thing is great, but maybe a little something with more concrete evidence for dating would be greater.)
 

D.E.A.P.

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Regardless of whether we all disagree or agree on where these people came from they were an anomaly and an unusual race.
Here are a few pictures and a little bit of information I copied on my phone along time ago. Just fascinating. Can't remember the title of the book.

DVD: Searching for the Great Hopewell Road. By American public television is a landmark documentary about one of the most fascinating cultures in ancient North America. It won the Chris award, humanities division, Columbus international video and film Festival.


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Dr. James P. Scherz, professor of civil engineering at the University of Wisconsin has found astounding new evidence included in the great octagon and great circle structures.
They were built using three units of measurement that were also used in ancient Egypt, the "common foot" or "statue foot", and finally the "Royal foot" (also known as the royal cubit) all of which can be demonstrated to have been used in the making of the structures. If the interior of the octagon a squared, the square that is formed has a base to dimension of 606 feet, which is the same length as the "stade" of ancient Egypt. The angle of the Great Pyramid of Egypt from the base up to the slope to the tip is 51.8° degrees, which happens to be the precise angle of the great octagon complex when passing a line through its main axis and then measuring to true north. Did the Hopewell have interaction with the Egyptians, or were they familiar with their measuring systems?
The octagon earthworks are aligned to the points on the horizon that mark the limits of the rising and setting of the moon throughout an 18.6 year long cycle. The main axis of the octagon earthworks is aligned to the moons northernmost rising.
Professors Ray Hively and Robert Horn of Earlham college, Richmond, Indiana, estimate that the odds that the octagons alignments are purely accidental are about one in 40 million. Some fairly sophisticated people I would say.
Monks mound is the largest prehistoric earthen construction in the New World. It measures 1037 feet long and 775 feet wide at its base and rises in three levels too high of 100 feet. This makes monks mound slightly larger at its base than the great pyramid of Giza. It's base circumference is larger than the Pyramid of the Sun at Teotihuacan.
Unlike Egyptian and Mayan pyramids which were built of stone, monks mound was constructed almost entirely of layers of basket transported soil and Clay. It is estimated that over 14 million baskets full of soil roughly 22,000,000 ft.³ by volume was used in its construction. Atop the colossal earthen structure was found evidence for a very large rectangular wooden building offset to the rear of the highest platform. It is thought that this structure was a temple.

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The Adena complex, in the middle and upper Ohio valley, is the most significant evidence

Zoned Pottery Vessel, c. 200 B.C.E. - 100 C.E., Middle Woodland period, Ohio Hopewell culture, 25 cm high, Mound City, Ohio, North America [emoji767] Trustees of the British Museum
of an Early Woodlands society in the last millennium B.C.E. The economy was based on hunting and fishing, and from 100 B.C.E. apparently also on the growing of squash, pumpkin, sunflowers, goosefoot and marsh elder. ​Burial mounds were constructed in several stages, with log-lined pits containing burials with fine grave goods, including smoking pipes. Mounds were constructed within large earthworks that were probably built for ceremonial and economic purposes, rather than as defensive strongpoints.

One or two double pots of this type have been recovered from mound sites. They are decorated with figures which represent aquatic and/or raptorial birds, suggesting the ancient Woodlands dichotomy between creatures of the upper and lower worlds.
Excavations in mounds in Ohio have uncovered superbly carved pipes and other exotic trade goods and fine artworks. The pipes may have been smoked for purification during rituals, and to ensure the good standing of the particular form of native government, whether clan, lineage, or larger grouping.

This tobacco pipe was made by the Hopewell people, and is in the shape of an otter's head. Otters were an important religious animal to the Hopewell, because they were equally at home on both land and in water. The tobacco was placed in a hole in the top of the otter's head, and the smoke breathed in through the flat base which is pierced with a hollow tube.

North American Otter pipe, c. 200 B.C.E. - 100 C.E., Middle Woodland period, Ohio Hopewell culture, stone, 10 x 5.1 x 3.3 cm, Mound City, Ohio, North America [emoji767] Trustees of the British Museum. Excavated in 1846. This is one of the approximately 200 pipes found in Mound 8, most of these pipes being animal effigies, and many of those being animals that either fly, or as is the case with this pipe, swim. The deep carved empty eye sockets would have originally had fresh water pearls, and it is thought that originally there was a fish in the mouth of this otter.
A number of pipes in the form of aquatic mammals were found at Mound City. They were to become important in perhaps the most significant archaeological debate of the mid-nineteenth century: were the mounds built by people related to the present-day Native population? If not, who built them?
The "Moundbuilder Myth"
Most American antiquarians thought that the scale and magnificence of the earthworks indicated that they had been erected by an unrelated people, the "Moundbuilders," whom the Native Indian replaced. To support their theory, they claimed that the otter pipes represented vegetarian manatees, living 1000 miles away in the seas around tropical Florida. The "Moundbuilder Myth" eased nineteenth-century guilt at the rapidly disappearing Indian population. Just as the Indians had replaced the Moundbuilders - perhaps coming from the Old World—so Americans, it was thought, would entirely replace Indians.


New DNA evidence suggest a link in North America. A fifth sounding genetic haplogroup was found among Native Americans to have ties to Europe rather than Asia.
The five markers that delineate this group have been found throughout Europe and are known to be one of the 12 primary Jewish haplogroup lineages. The lineage is called Haplogroup X. And its origins are according to geneticist the "hills of Galilee" of the holy land of Israel.
It has been found in many Israelite populations. Ancient new world populations have now also been DNA sequenced with rather incredible new findings. Haplogroup X was subsequently found among the Algonquian speaking language groups of the North America which included over 100 and Native American tribes.

Controversial, sure. However nobody can reject the books which of been written by prominent archaeologist and other scholars who attest that the Hopewell Indians are a highly civilized culture.
Interesting conversations though. [emoji6]
 

unclemac

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havent i read about a possible connection, either through trade or contact, between Hopewell and Meso-American cultures? Now that would make a lot of sense.
 

releventchair

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Hopewell needed a lot of time to build mounds. Needed to eat and tend other matters too now and then.
Being highly civilized, as most cultures see at one time or another depending on who's definition, would factor in having a desire to create earth works, as well as the luxury of time to haul fill.
A races history of who was before can be interesting; but those before likely had trade and traveling at least on occasion..
Digging back into time does not always offer solid answers if too many parties get asked.
Gotta dig though.
 

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Hopewell needed a lot of slaves to get that done, and I bet they had them. Great post, D.E.A.P. I've been to Spiro Mounds, and that's probably as close as I'll ever get to Hopewell or Cahokia. There was some tendency among European intruders to believe that the indigenous people were slightly above the level of monkeys, so they MUST have had contact with ancient Vikings, Egyptians or Chinese to come up with some of the things they did. Today I see where it's popular to put forth that indigenous people must have been guided and instructed by beings from other planets. Poor Lo would never have had knowledge of engineering or astronomy without a little help from Mork from Ork I guess. I believe there are incredibly smart and insightful folks in all cultures, there always has been, and they made many of the same advancements and discoveries independent of each other.
 

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The first article you headed above is a great example of a well done study and investigation, and also an antidote for the second one headed above. The second one might sound compelling to someone who is uninformed with the whole story, but when one takes the time to study all the available facts the otherwise compelling stories all of a sudden appear selective in the facts they're willing to present,the contradictions they're willing to admit, and as well their selective reasoning in general.
All of these frauds including the elephant pipes and many more that I've read about can be quickly put to rest when one gets all the known historical data and not just a personal propaganda article/book/or so-called "documentary" TV show.
I don't know if anyone else took the time to read all the information under both headings but if you should, I suggest you read the last one first.
Thanks for the information "charl"
 

claysee

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I recently found a piece that can clarify the top half of this but mine has no fish .. we found this on our property here in Arizona
 

claysee

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I recently found a piece that can clarify the top half of this but mine has no fish .. we found this on our property here in Arizona
I was looking on here when I seen the similarity above the fish .. completely tripped out by this
 

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dirstscratcher

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I'm definitely not an expert. And I don't usually put my two cents worth in because I'm not. But this time I will. Your second stone looks like Hopewell origin, or as they are often called "Mound builders" Which ancestors came from Israel. Many of the artifacts found in the Hopewell mounds which are all over North America but most heavily in Illinois and Ohio and some of the Midwestern states. It looks like the ornaments around the neck could represent copper which the Hopewell Indians were proficient with. They were also proficient with cement. In Ohio there is a mound which has the same angles and shape as the Pyramids of Egypt. However it dwarfs the pyramids. Look them up on YouTube.
There is also a museum I think in Ohio for the Hopewell Indians. They have expert archeologist which could tell you. At the museum they have swords from mass graves found at some of the mounds. With head plates and breast plates made from copper. A more advanced civilization from Israel. The mounds are often shaped in the form of A menorah or the tea lamp that the Israelites used. From an aerial view some of the mounds depict stars and planet movements. At one mound there was a cement box that was found and cut open. And it was a statue of Moses with the 10 Commandments around it. Dated 300 years before the Bible had reached America. According to most archaeologist Hopewell Indians were here around 600 BC to 400 A.D.
I would suggest looking up that museum for the Hopewell Indians and talking to somebody there. The second stone definitely looks Jewish in nature.
Regards, Steve
Most of what you say has been debunked over and over again. You should read some real articles on it rather than the fanciful outlandish claims with no merit.
 

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Most of what you say has been debunked over and over again. You should read some real articles on it rather than the fanciful outlandish claims with no merit.
I think they had to be kidding about being from Israel. Boy this is an old post.
 

newnan man

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it too bad Floyd Ritter passed recently or he may have some input on that. Floyd was living in Collinsville when he passed.
I suggest taking it to the Collinsville CSASI show Feb 17th - 19th and getting some opinions on it after some have handled it and looked at it. Your not too far from that event.
I read through this post from time to time. It's interesting & intertaining. As time goes by more accurate DNA analysis is changing some long held beliefs on where everyone came from.
 

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