need help identifying indian artifacts origin

[SkySaint]

This artifact was found outside of Belleville, IL in 1934 while my great grandfather was tilling a garden with a push cultivator outside of his house. Along with the rock were arrow tips and a broken spear with these items. After contacting the Cahokia Museum about these items they replied back saying that they do not believe it is neither Cahokia nor Mississippian in origin. I really have no idea where to go for more information after the museum told me that it was not of their decent. Can anyone help me figure out its origin so I may find the proper place to donate it?

 

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[SOHIO]

neat

 

[Tnmountains]

Welcome to t-net
I have no idea.. what do you think the carving is above the fish?

 

[SOHIO]

i didnt even pay attention to that....looks like a dinosour. Back in the day there were certain times in america where hoaxing artifacts happened. Usually taking place because of differing sides of misc. debates etc in archaeology. I wonder if your pc is one of those. The fish is carved pretty good . But not to say its not a cool pc. even if it does have some ulterior motives behind its manufacture.

 

[SkySaint]

Could be a lizard or a panther of some sorts.....who knows....that's why I posted it. The Cahokia museum added that this could be a net stone due to the wearing on the lizard thing but it still doesn't help me. I've been trying to contact an archaeologist that specializes in Illinois Indians but I have not heard back from him as of yet.

 

[SOHIO]

I'd call that pc "The Smiling Fish"

 

[SOHIO]

usually when a lizard is depicted in ancient art its depicted with its legs and arms to its side, that is clearly a camel dinosour, i never heard of them until now, but im now sure they once existed.

 

[pickaway]

That fish has some knarly teeth Im seeing on top part mastodon part fox...more in likely not legit just my 2 cents hope it turns out legit for you...

 

[SkySaint]

I just got it from my grandmother a week or so ago; I remember seeing it when I was younger. I think its legit but I can't prove it...that's why I am asking people to help. I have no interest in wasting my time on things that are most likely fake. Also, the Cahokia museum seemed to believe it was real but not from their tribe.

 

[Gold Maven]

very interesting. It seems like a lot of artwork on a very common rock. If wonder if it looks different wet.

 

[Charl]

i didnt even pay attention to that....looks like a dinosour. Back in the day there were certain times in america where hoaxing artifacts happened. Usually taking place because of differing sides of misc. debates etc in archaeology. I wonder if your pc is one of those. The fish is carved pretty good . But not to say its not a cool pc. even if it does have some ulterior motives behind its manufacture.

Here's some nice "man fights dinosaur" stones for you...........

Ica Stones « Who You Calling a Skeptic?

http://www.viewzone.com/dinostone.ica.html

SkySaint, really neat rock, but I'm not sure it's Native American and the carving seems too fresh somehow. Thing on top does remind one of a dinosaur

 

[The Grim Reaper]

I don't believe it to be Native American either. Your grandfather may have found it, but I believe it was probably done by some artist and then lost.

 

[SkySaint]

Here is a similar stone that was found near the same location as mine, though this one is verified as Cahokia. The lines on this stone are close to the same width and look somewhat new as well....not all old things age badly, especially rocks.

 

[SOHIO]

 

[artfinder]

Hi,
I'm just wondering if you've ever looked at this piece with a loupe. (Or even higher magnification, to determine its age. It will be obvious if it's new (less than several hundred, or even a thousand years old) if its surface isn't comprised mostly of "convexities" (tiny bumps, or "outies"). Newer items will be smooth, or filled with convex "divots". If you can determine that it's very old, I would simply hold on to it and keep asking questions. Everyone loves to tell you what something ISN'T, and yet being a collector of art, indian artifacts and antiques for 40 years I can tell you that nine times out of 10, they are wrong, simply out of innocent ignorance. Until someone sees it who knows what it is, having seen similar objects before, or until you do laboratory analysis (carbon dating of surface organic matter, for example), don't believe just anyone who tries to tell you what something isn't. Nobody has seen everything made by a particular group of "prehistoric" people (to use the word vaguely) from a particular area, or the particular time period that the items might have come from. It could be 30,000 years old until scrutiny can prove otherwise. For me, the most fun to come from finding treasures is doing the research, and trying to discover unknown items. Also worth remembering is that very few "early" art renderings are necessarily anatomically accurate. As with any art object, each artist was attempting to "materialize" something desireable, and to tell a story. More times than not, their depiction was somewhat "fantastic" on purpose. Best of luck with that item!

 

[stefen]

Inuit

 

[Xj1992r]

But if they found it, it's a museum piece

 

[The Grim Reaper]

30,000 years old?? Not sure it's ever been proven the US was occupied that far back. I still say this was someone art project or bought for decoration and then lost. I highly doubt it's ancient or Native American.

 

[D.E.A.P.]

I'm definitely not an expert. And I don't usually put my two cents worth in because I'm not. But this time I will. Your second stone looks like Hopewell origin, or as they are often called "Mound builders" Which ancestors came from Israel. Many of the artifacts found in the Hopewell mounds which are all over North America but most heavily in Illinois and Ohio and some of the Midwestern states. It looks like the ornaments around the neck could represent copper which the Hopewell Indians were proficient with. They were also proficient with cement. In Ohio there is a mound which has the same angles and shape as the Pyramids of Egypt. However it dwarfs the pyramids. Look them up on YouTube.
There is also a museum I think in Ohio for the Hopewell Indians. They have expert archeologist which could tell you. At the museum they have swords from mass graves found at some of the mounds. With head plates and breast plates made from copper. A more advanced civilization from Israel. The mounds are often shaped in the form of A menorah or the tea lamp that the Israelites used. From an aerial view some of the mounds depict stars and planet movements. At one mound there was a cement box that was found and cut open. And it was a statue of Moses with the 10 Commandments around it. Dated 300 years before the Bible had reached America. According to most archaeologist Hopewell Indians were here around 600 BC to 400 A.D.
I would suggest looking up that museum for the Hopewell Indians and talking to somebody there. The second stone definitely looks Jewish in nature.
Regards, Steve

 

[unclemac]

i would love to see some links on what you just wrote