Need opinions on the authenticity of this Continental Army USA button! Update!

[testing123]

I found this USA button in South Jersey around 1993 or so. I have no reason to believe it is a reproduction as it looks authentic to me, but I'm not even close to an expert. Two large cents were also found in the same general area.

It's been sitting around the house and buttons aren't my interest so I put it on eBay Sunday night - link here http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250777282612&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123

I get a message today from a member stating: "You know this is a reproduction, with a drilled shank. You might want to note that so their isn't a return by a buyer who over paid by accident."

Is this actually a reproduction, or is guy making stuff up? I'd be happy for any input!

Update 2/24/11: So I emailed the guy back last night telling him I posted the picture of a button on a metal detecting forum (didn't mention here), and that the opinions here were this button is authentic and offered a link to here if he wanted it. Here are his responses:

Hello,
yeah, well i am an expert. This is a DRILLED PEWTER SHANK! Not to be abrasion, but some yahoo who metal detects is not an authority. Don't need a link. If you want professional book references, please check Military Buttons of the American Revolution by Don Trioani or Alberts Record of American Uniform buttons. There actually is a law against selling reproductions as originals which can also be checked on the APIC web site. You are just going to end up taking someone for a large amount of money and they will be pissed when they find out from an expert its a reproduction with a drilled shank. Just giving you heads up, not trying to be negative, just give you the proper information. The least you should do is add this or a note to the posting. By the way i own 22 Real ones.

and 2nd email later:
I ment to say Drilled Wedge Shank just not drilled shank. that is how you tell an imposter.

So this guy seems pretty persistent it's not genuine. Should I just try cleaning the back of the button so this guy can see for sure? Sorry to be a pain, but thanks for your help! What's the best way to clean the back?

 

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[kyphote]

Re: Need opinions on the authenticity of this Continental Army USA button!

He's absolutely wrong.

 

[Woodland Detectors]

Re: Need opinions on the authenticity of this Continental Army USA button!

What a beautiful and rare button! It looks accurate to me. So did this guy email you back and ask to take it off your hands too?

Nice button! I hope you make a bunch on it.

 

[NHBandit]

Re: Need opinions on the authenticity of this Continental Army USA button!

2 Possibilities as I see it. 1- the guy is simply a moron or 2- He wants you to drop the price and list it as a reproduction because he knows it's the real deal and he wants to be able to buy it cheap. I'm no expert but it sure has the look of a very old original button to me.

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: Need opinions on the authenticity of this Continental Army USA button!

Reproduction with a "drilled" shank? huh.

Block him.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Re: Need opinions on the authenticity of this Continental Army USA button!

Testing123, if I may suggest... to convince doubters, clean enough of the dirt-crust out of the base of the loop to show that it is clearly not a drilled hole -- but instead, a true loop-shank. Then add a photo of it to your Ebay listing.

For the forum's readers: The Reproduction version of this Revolutionary War one-piece cast button doesn't have a loop-shank like the Original version, but instead has a "wedge" shank with a hole drilled through it.

Here's a photo of the back of an Original "intertwined-USA" button, which even though the loop is broken off, shows it was indeed a loop-shank, not a wedge-shank with a drilled hole.

 

[Kiros32]

Re: Need opinions on the authenticity of this Continental Army USA button!

I think the fact that you have 4 days left on the auction and the bid is already up to $203, that the bidders know this is an authentic button. Cool find man!

 

[kyphote]

Re: Need opinions on the authenticity of this Continental Army USA button!

Perhaps also send the guy a link to this thread so we can set him straight!

 

[testing123]

Update at top. This guy is pretty persistent... I certainly don't want to sell a fake

 

[Broken knee]

Update at top. This guy is pretty persistent... I certainly don't want to sell a fake

It doesn't look fake to me, tell him to blow smoke. Bid or shut up!
Broken Knee

 

[NHBandit]

Looks the same to me right down to the seam across the back.... http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1484323

 

[Kenosha Kid]

yeah, well i am an expert. By the way i own 22 Real ones.

...that is how you tell an imposter.

No, that's how you tell an imposter.

If I told you I was an expert and had more real buttons than that person did, would you take it at face value I am telling the truth? Just because someone says they are, or owns X number of something, doesn't mean jack.

btw, all you single girls ... check out my profile on that millionaire's dating site.

 

[traderoftreasures]

Fake or not it's to late now let the bidding continue....i say it's real and if i bought buttons for 400 bucks i'd bid on yours as good as any.

 

[vonrall]

I think this button is fine. There have been some fake USAs on ebay lately (so everyone is a bit spooked) with drilled wedge shanks. The downward photo angle, unusual patina and grit buildup in the shank base area of your button make it look suspicious but after seeing the additional photos there are no worries.Always wise to take good pictures if you want the best price. I might point out there are a few USA fakes around now with proper shanks. Another issue is expoxy repairs, where they mix pewter dust from crushed buttons with filler and fill in holes, and cracks and build up missing rim areas.This is usually noticable if you look carefully with a glass, some however, are quite well done. Most collectors though are not looking for this, and can get duped. As soon as anything becomes worth something the fakes begin to appear.

 

[Iron Patch]

There it is. Good luck with the sale!

 

[kyphote]

1) How is your skeptic an expert? What are his qualifications/certifications? His spelling and grammar alone are red flags. Nothing you'd expect from a "scholar."
2) Ask your skeptic to post his "legitimate" finds, all of which seem so paramount to his argument.
3) Why would a master forger bury his forgery at the proper depth in the middle of nowhere?
4) Your critic's unabashed jab at relic hunters (branding all of us as "yahoos") points to a latent bias that irrationally puts those dedicated to preserving history in his cross-hairs. (e.g. ALL of us are targets.)

Bottom line: Your critic's brash and unprofessional behavior coupled with a poorly articulated "drilled shanks" argument equate to an ordinary pseudo intellectual empowered by an expensive collection but otherwise vapid when it comes to instrinsically understanding the toll time takes on metal.

I was certified by the ASA. Ask him to contact me at dtfonville@aol.com so we can further discuss his expertise. And, ouch, it hurts to use that word.

 

[vonrall]

Ebay is "God's Little Acre" for selling fake buttons. Therefore, collectors have a right to be nervous and question listings, there is a lot of money involved here whether they are knowledgeable or not. The seller here did the exact right thing by checking and making sure his items were okay. Problem solved.

I have to admit from the poor photos that were posted I though this might be a bad one and told some people I thought so. When the seller provided me with good pictures I knew right away it was fine and immediately corrected anyone I talked to about it. There are few experts on revolutionary war buttons , but always new fakes to challenge. When it comes to ebay it's guilty until proven innocent in many cases. There are plenty of bogus buttons offered there with "I dug it myself" stories or found in the USA when it was obviously dug in the UK or elsewhere. You have to judge the item not the story.

There are any number of possible patinas on pewter buttons, depending on metal content and soil conditions. I have dug the as shiny as a silver dime , all shades of gray and brown , gold (usually underwater) , jet black . Sometimes , there is no toll of time, all depends on the conditions. Once I found 15 USA buttons in a stone lined privy, they were all bluish and crumbling apart, in the last stages of decay. Right over wall of the sink a friend found a literally mint specimen , pale gray patina without a trace of ground action.

1) How is your skeptic an expert? What are his qualifications/certifications? His spelling and grammar alone are red flags. Nothing you'd expect from a "scholar."
2) Ask your skeptic to post his "legitimate" finds, all of which seem so paramount to his argument.
3) Why would a master forger bury his forgery at the proper depth in the middle of nowhere?
4) Your critic's unabashed jab at relic hunters (branding all of us as "yahoos") points to a latent bias that irrationally puts those dedicated to preserving history in his cross-hairs. (e.g. ALL of us are targets.)

Bottom line: Your critic's brash and unprofessional behavior coupled with a poorly articulated "drilled shanks" argument equate to an ordinary pseudo intellectual empowered by an expensive collection but otherwise vapid when it comes to instrinsically understanding the toll time takes on metal.

I was certified by the ASA. Ask him to contact me at dtfonville@aol.com so we can further discuss his expertise. And, ouch, it hurts to use that word.

 

[testing123]

Hi Everyone,

I want to give a great big THANK YOU to Don Troiani! He was very quick to reply and very friendly and patient with his review and replies.

It looks like my original image angles were the cause of apprehension for the original ebay member, as well as a couple others. Once new images were taken for Don, he was able to determine this piece is real. We have both been in touch with the ebay member and are all on the same page now.

I am nowhere near a button expert and just assumed my images were sufficient to begin with. I had no idea about drilled wedge shanks or any such thing that could be part of a fake button. Obviously my original images were not clear enough to end all doubt.

So, I'm glad the original ebay member was so persistent as we were able to finally get to the final conclusion: It's real, and it's spectacular! (yes, that's a play on an old Seinfeld quote)

I'm going to mark this thread "complete." Thank you all for your input and help!

 

[kyphote]

Great news, this makes me feel better. The "some yahoo who metal detects is not an authority" sort of set me off. Good luck with the legitimate sale.

 

[Broken knee]

Sold $ 405.00 NICE! Good for you HH
Broken Knee