New Clay Worst Interview. I think it's awesome!

devldog

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Great Job you did with the cemetery restoration. If Mr. and Mrs. Wood were able, I know they would Thank You profusely for uprighting and stabilizing their memorial headstone. We need more folks like yourself in this old world.
 

Idahodutch

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So I’m a little disappointed with the different camp stuff still getting in the way. Yet another version of the deathbed happenings….. this one has all three, Julia, Dick, and Gideon as they’re listening to Waltz. 😳😵‍💫

I’m not sure I buy it 👀😳
 

Idahodutch

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So I’m a little disappointed with the different camp stuff still getting in the way. Yet another version of the deathbed happenings….. this one has all three, Julia, Dick, and Gideon as they’re listening to Waltz. 😳😵‍💫

I’m not sure I buy it 👀😳
I should clarify, that I don’t doubt Clay’s word.
I just don’t buy that version of happenings.
Waltz had been trying to tell Julia and Rhiney how to find the mine for some time, yet this version wants to negate that, it seems.
Too much to overlook… imho.
 

Idahodutch

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I just went back and read through the article again, in case I was not reading correctly.
It definitely has Julia NOT going after a doctor, but instead, the 3 go into where Waltz is dying ….
They are there together with Waltz, until Waltz died….

So all the time prior, where Waltz was telling Julia and Rhiney, didn’t happen?
What about the German clues … ?
What about the Bark notes?
What about the issues with the ore under the bed, and the lawsuit.
Why did Julia go to Hog canyon … I’m sure there are more issues with this version and it’s insulation that nothing of value came from the Julia camp … that the only true clue is the deathbed confession.

A while back, I became aware of an effort to completely discredit the 1895 SF Chronicle article, as actually being from an interview with Julia. The statements were “no proof Bicknell ever interviewed Julia”.

To me, this feels like an extension of those efforts.

Maybe I’m reading things into this, that aren’t correct, I don’t know.
 

markmar

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I just went back and read through the article again, in case I was not reading correctly.
It definitely has Julia NOT going after a doctor, but instead, the 3 go into where Waltz is dying ….
They are there together with Waltz, until Waltz died….

So all the time prior, where Waltz was telling Julia and Rhiney, didn’t happen?
What about the German clues … ?
What about the Bark notes?
What about the issues with the ore under the bed, and the lawsuit.
Why did Julia go to Hog canyon … I’m sure there are more issues with this version and it’s insulation that nothing of value came from the Julia camp … that the only true clue is the deathbed confession.

A while back, I became aware of an effort to completely discredit the 1895 SF Chronicle article, as actually being from an interview with Julia. The statements were “no proof Bicknell ever interviewed Julia”.

To me, this feels like an extension of those efforts.

Maybe I’m reading things into this, that aren’t correct, I don’t know.
Idahodutch

Bicknell if not interviewed Julia, for sure did it to a member of Julia's camp. Bicknell didn't write he had his info directly from Julia, but seems the info came from her " camp ".
Also seems Waltz didn't tell Julia the route to the mine but only how the terrain was in the region. He hopped would make that trip with Julia, trip which never came to be done. The German clues seem to have been told to Julia few days if not hours before Waltz's death. They are short told, like were told by a dying man. Julia was not an outdoors woman so needed the help of someone who knew well the region, and maybe this was the reason he partied with Holmes at the end of Waltz's life. Imho, nothing wrong with this. But things went wrong and the deathbed party spread in two " camps ".
Also, The German clues and the Holmes route, are the same route, only the landmarks and naration have been changed. There is a good reason the route was told to be followed from the north to the south. Even the route from the south written in Bicknell's article, at the end turns in another direction. It's like the Wagoner map ( even his mine could be approached from the south ) which for some reasons was most easier to describe the route going around and coming from the north.
 
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Idahodutch

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Bicknell if not interviewed Julia, for sure did it to a member of Julia's camp. Bicknell didn't write he had his info directly from Julia, but seems the info came from her " camp ".
Also seems Waltz didn't tell Julia the route to the mine but only how the terrain was in the region. He hopped would make that trip with Julia, trip which never came to be done. The German clues seem to have been told to Julia few days if not hours before Waltz's death. They are short told, like were told by a dying man. Julia was not an outdoors woman so needed the help of someone who kneew well the region, and maybe this was the reason he partied with Holmes at the end of Waltz's life. Imho, nothing wrong with this. But things went wrong and the deathbed party spread in two " camps ".
Also, The German clues and the Holmes route, are the same route, only the landmarks and naration have been changed. There is a good reason the route was told to be followed from the north to the south. Even the route from the south written in Bicknell's article, at the end turns in another direction. It's like the Wagoner map ( even his mine could be approached from the south ) which for some reasons was most easier to describe the route going around and coming from the north.
Markmar,
It is hard to tell, what Bicknell’s meaning actually is:
Here is a snip from that 1895 article
8325F317-5A3D-4EF3-9B4C-61EEB88F5453.jpeg

Bicknell says it’s repeated by Waltz’s only hearer. Then in the next snip below, Bicknell comments on “the woman” being at fault, because she is unsure about east or west for the tributary…. (ahem, route to the mine)
E5D332DA-5296-4517-9519-BC0A3BE1A834.jpeg

It’s possible that it was not Julia, but someone from her “camp”, although Bick sure indicates it was Julia giving the information (Waltz’ only hearer).

The directions in this account, come from the Peraltas. And Julia must have memorized all this information long before Waltz’ deathbed.

For Bick to think of Julia as Waltz’ only hearer, then either Julia lied to Bick about being only hearer, or it’s because she thought she was. Especially if Rhiney was never paying attention🤓

If Julia was 1 of 3 at the deathbed confession, she wouldn’t be only heater.

Julia going to Hog canyon first, sure looks like she was trying to follow the monumented trail, not the trail given to Holmes.

As far as German clues …. Rhiney was part of that process. I would find it hard pressed to think that happened in haste, just before Waltz died …… remember, Rhiney was a poor student 😜

If folk want to dismiss Bicknell’s 1895 article, that is up to them.
This account of all 3 at the deathbed doesn’t fit, imho……
 

markmar

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Markmar,
It is hard to tell, what Bicknell’s meaning actually is:
Here is a snip from that 1895 article
View attachment 2063114
Bicknell says it’s repeated by Waltz’s only hearer. Then in the next snip below, Bicknell comments on “the woman” being at fault, because she is unsure about east or west for the tributary…. (ahem, route to the mine)
View attachment 2063116
It’s possible that it was not Julia, but someone from her “camp”, although Bick sure indicates it was Julia giving the information (Waltz’ only hearer).

The directions in this account, come from the Peraltas. And Julia must have memorized all this information long before Waltz’ deathbed.

For Bick to think of Julia as Waltz’ only hearer, then either Julia lied to Bick about being only hearer, or it’s because she thought she was. Especially if Rhiney was never paying attention🤓

If Julia was 1 of 3 at the deathbed confession, she wouldn’t be only heater.

Julia going to Hog canyon first, sure looks like she was trying to follow the monumented trail, not the trail given to Holmes.

As far as German clues …. Rhiney was part of that process. I would find it hard pressed to think that happened in haste, just before Waltz died …… remember, Rhiney was a poor student 😜

If folk want to dismiss Bicknell’s 1895 article, that is up to them.
This account of all 3 at the deathbed doesn’t fit, imho……
Julia going to Hog Canyon first, shows she has a lack of inteligence, because " the first gorge.." clue in combination with the board house, points out only the Peralta/Willow canyon. As I wrote, the only part I dismiss from Bicknell's article, is the part of how Waltz came in possession of the mine. I don't know if was Bicknell's imagination or Julia's lie.
If one day you will find the LDM inclined shaft, then you will understand there it's no way someone to hear any noice of breaking rocks at the LDM site from the canyon which is running north from Sombrero Butte, nor anyone could has a direct sight to the mine from the top of any hill close by. The only direct sight to the mine's entrance coming from the easiest way up, it's from the lip of a cliff about 30 yards higher and about 40 yards away and almost back from the mine's entrance.
Also, I doubt Waltz told Julia any route before he was close to death. I don't believe he was trusting her so much.
 
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Idahodutch

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Markmar,
I’m glad you’re responding. 👍
I’m ok with us having different views on things. I don’t know what the intelligence level of Julia was, but just because she made a wrong turn (she turned too early), doesn’t mean she lacks intelligence.😉
I do think she was intending for the monumented trail though.

I thought you also didn’t believe about the 6 Mexicans getting shot by Waltz and Weiser, or where bodies got left? 🤓
I’m actually glad you responded. I think it helped to talk some. Get it off my chest, I guess.

Sorry everybody, please continue 😁
 

Idahodutch

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…….. If one day you will find the LDM inclined shaft, then you will understand there it's no way someone to hear any noice of breaking rocks at the LDM site from the canyon which is running north from Sombrero Butte, …….
Markmar,
I’d like to address the statement you make concerning the the ability to hear the rock chipping from the tributary canyon below the mine. This clue is shown in the Jan, 1895 SF Chronicle article, by Bicknell.

In 2nd paragraph, the path into the tributary canyon, is described, including the sounds of rock chipping.

823699BA-732A-4437-BBEF-7C8B409B3114.jpeg

There is absolutely no problem hearing rock chipping from above, from down in the tributary canyon below. In fact, the sounds are audible from the the whole canyon below the mine, as well as all over the ravine.
I was making rock noises for about 3 hours straight, from tossing rocks off of the big pile that’s on top of the gold deposit.

My son was all over the ravine just about, performing deep underground scanning, while I was chucking rocks. He said he could tell I was doing ok, because of the loud echoes produced by my rock chucking …. Every few seconds.

I suppose it would matter which part of that canyon you were listening from, but from that area in the tributary canyon, below the mine, it is not a problem at all to hear the rock chipping.

If one was to continue further into the tributary canyon, the canyon opens up, and acoustically, sounds are not nearly as audible, like in that canyon area approaching the mine.

It’s definitely a solid clue. 👍
 

markmar

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Idahodutch

Waltz shooting from 100 feet above the mine, this means they could not approach the mine from below or the mine was on the other side of the mountain. Choose and take.
It's clear Bicknell article was adressed to people who knew nothing about mining habits in a hostile Indian teritorry. Nor Julia knew. They should knew how at a mining spot in a hostile region, there would been always sentinels who would keep an eye on a specific region in regards to prevent an ambush. If there would been three Mexicans miners at the workings, one would been a sentinel and the other two would work the mine. Even if there would been only two, one would been watching out. So, with six Mexicans working the LDM, at least two of them would been watching out for Indians, one below and one above. Like Holmes said to Clay Worst, the three Mexicans hired Waltz to help at workings and to keep an eye for the Indians. Even after Waltz and Wiser aquired the LDM inclined shaft, while one of them was working the mine, the other was watching out for Indians.
And if someone would throw six bodies in the same mine he would work after, then show me this man to give him the Oscar stupidity, because Waltz and Wiser worked the LDM inclined shaft before the LDM gold outcrop.
 

Idahodutch

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Idahodutch

Waltz shooting from 100 feet above the mine, this means they could not approaching the mine from below or the mine was on the other side of the mountain. Choose and take.
It's clear Bicknell article was adressed to people who knew nothing about mining habits in a hostile Indian teritorry. Nor Julia knew. They should knew how at a mining spot in a hostile region, there would been always sentinels who would keep an eye on a specific region in regards to prevent an ambush. If there would been three Mexicans miners at the workings, one would been a sentinel and the other two would work the mine. Even if there would been only two, one would been watching out. So, with six Mexicans working the LDM, at least two of them would been watching out for Indians, one below and one above. Like Holmes said to Clay Worst, the three Mexicans hired Waltz to help at workings and to keep an eye for the Indians. Even after Waltz and Wiser aquired the LDM inclined shaft, while one of them was working the mine, the other was watching out for Indians.
And if someone would throw six bodies in the same mine he would work after, then show me this man to give him the Oscar stupidity, because Waltz and Wiser worked the LDM inclined shaft before the LDM gold outcrop.
Good morning markmar,
Maybe take a deep breath, try and calm yourself.

Let’s go through this step by step.
Stop referencing your spot, and let the clues dictate.

Where does it say Waltz was shooting from above the mine?
It says no such thing 🤪

My friend, you are running out of straws to grasp. If I were you, I’d be trying to figure out what really is located at your spot, since clues for LDM frequently need to be dismissed or altered in order to fit your find.

It is obvious you are in a panicked scramble … and for what?
Rock chip sounds, and sentinels.

If you take the time to actually read Bick’s article, you will see what I’m saying, as well as “WHEN” the Mexican bodies were put down into the inclined shaft mine.
Waltz and Weiser …. Ooop I’ll let you read it for yourself. 🤓

I am not your enemy markmar 🤗
I don’t call this arguing, rather extending my hand out to someone having a very difficult day. 😉
 

markmar

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Good morning markmar,
Maybe take a deep breath, try and calm yourself.

Let’s go through this step by step.
Stop referencing your spot, and let the clues dictate.

Where does it say Waltz was shooting from above the mine?
It says no such thing 🤪

My friend, you are running out of straws to grasp. If I were you, I’d be trying to figure out what really is located at your spot, since clues for LDM frequently need to be dismissed or altered in order to fit your find.

It is obvious you are in a panicked scramble … and for what?
Rock chip sounds, and sentinels.

If you take the time to actually read Bick’s article, you will see what I’m saying, as well as “WHEN” the Mexican bodies were put down into the inclined shaft mine.
Waltz and Weiser …. Ooop I’ll let you read it for yourself. 🤓

I am not your enemy markmar 🤗
I don’t call this arguing, rather extending my hand out to someone having a very difficult day. 😉
You are right, Bicknell wrote " 100 feet above them " ( above Waltz and Wiser ). Sorry , not in panic just misunderstood the text.
So, what about the Waltz's clue which says " you can't approach my mine from below or above, but only from the side "?
John Reed said also how from the mine could not be seen the bottom of the canyon below, but in regards to see it, someone has to reach the edge of the small valley where the mine was on. He said also how between the edge of the valley and the canyon, there was not a drop off but was very steep. To me, looks like the mine's site to be on a terrace, or it's just me who I'm trying to fit the clues to my spot?
 

Idahodutch

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You are right, Bicknell wrote " 100 feet above them " ( above Waltz and Wiser ). Sorry , not in panic just misunderstood the text.
So, what about the Waltz's clue which says " you can't approach my mine from below or above, but only from the side "?
John Reed said also how from the mine could not be seen the bottom of the canyon below, but in regards to see it, someone has to reach the edge of the small valley where the mine was on. He said also how between the edge of the valley and the canyon, there was not a drop off but was very steep. To me, looks like the mine's site to be on a terrace, or it's just me who I'm trying to fit the clues to my spot?
Markmar,
Did you also read when they put the dead Mexicans into the inclined shaft? 😜

You are taking offense to my stating the obvious. Do you deny modifying some clues so they fit correctly to your “preselected” destination ? Do you deny omitting/dismissal of some clues that don’t fit your area but using other clues from same source and narrative ?

At the same time, you have talked down to folk here on T-net, myself included, and now, the foundations of your claims are slowly dwindling …. bit by bit, like a house built on sand foundation.
It is just a matter of time you know. 🥺
I have concern for how you will deal with it.

Sincerely, Idahodutch
 

markmar

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Markmar,
Did you also read when they put the dead Mexicans into the inclined shaft? 😜

You are taking offense to my stating the obvious. Do you deny modifying some clues so they fit correctly to your “preselected” destination ? Do you deny omitting/dismissal of some clues that don’t fit your area but using other clues from same source and narrative ?

At the same time, you have talked down to folk here on T-net, myself included, and now, the foundations of your claims are slowly dwindling …. bit by bit, like a house built on sand foundation.
It is just a matter of time you know. 🥺
I have concern for how you will deal with it.

Sincerely, Idahodutch
Hahaha, now who is in panic? Don't fit to your spot the LDM clues written by folks who have heard them directly from " the horse's mouth "?
I wrote the clues as they have been written by those who have heard them and I haven't modified or changed any of them. I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. And there it's not my spot but only the LDM spot which belongs to nobody.
You are following a newspaper writer who wrote two articles describing the LDM in two different places. One in the Weavers Needle area and the other in Rogers Canyon. Why someone to believe him and what he was writing?
Are you bying in what Bicknell wrote and not in what Clay Worst said and wrote?
Here seems your theory is slowly falling under the pressure of the real LDM clues which don't fit to your dear spot.
You have derailed a thread about new clues on the Waltz deathbed confession in a delirious try to prove it out of logic and mistaken in regards to your allegedly LDM spot. Stop advertising in every LDM thread you know where the LDM is and how you found it, because you didn't.
 

releventchair

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Idahodutch

Waltz shooting from 100 feet above the mine, this means they could not approach the mine from below or the mine was on the other side of the mountain. Choose and take.
It's clear Bicknell article was adressed to people who knew nothing about mining habits in a hostile Indian teritorry. Nor Julia knew. They should knew how at a mining spot in a hostile region, there would been always sentinels who would keep an eye on a specific region in regards to prevent an ambush. If there would been three Mexicans miners at the workings, one would been a sentinel and the other two would work the mine. Even if there would been only two, one would been watching out. So, with six Mexicans working the LDM, at least two of them would been watching out for Indians, one below and one above. Like Holmes said to Clay Worst, the three Mexicans hired Waltz to help at workings and to keep an eye for the Indians. Even after Waltz and Wiser aquired the LDM inclined shaft, while one of them was working the mine, the other was watching out for Indians.
And if someone would throw six bodies in the same mine he would work after, then show me this man to give him the Oscar stupidity, because Waltz and Wiser worked the LDM inclined shaft before the LDM gold outcrop.
Being above may be a chosen vantage point compared to being below.
Certainly terrain and ability on terrain matters. Which you suggest.
Seeing the site would help make more sense of it. (Dang , I don't have a picture...)

Story version is what it is.
Investigating activity /sign/sound might require approaching closer. Chose a vantage given the choice. Breeze even if it applies to your scent. Sun position vs your eyes.
Had the tale gone , we sought a firing position in view of the mine , high ground may have been the preference. Had either men had military experience it may have influenced seeking a vantage.

Curiosity turning to murder so quick though...One has to wonder if the story didn't have more to it before the encounter.

Seemed impatient taking action involving firepower. How did they know who was in earshot and where? Or were they not concerned other people, arms or weapons might be near?

It gets dark out eventually. For anyone watching and or following it does too.
 

Idahodutch

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Hahaha, now who is in panic? Don't fit to your spot the LDM clues written by folks who have heard them directly from " the horse's mouth "?
I wrote the clues as they have been written by those who have heard them and I haven't modified or changed any of them. I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. And there it's not my spot but only the LDM spot which belongs to nobody.
You are following a newspaper writer who wrote two articles describing the LDM in two different places. One in the Weavers Needle area and the other in Rogers Canyon. Why someone to believe him and what he was writing?
Are you bying in what Bicknell wrote and not in what Clay Worst said and wrote?
Here seems your theory is slowly falling under the pressure of the real LDM clues which don't fit to your dear spot.
You have derailed a thread about new clues on the Waltz deathbed confession in a delirious try to prove it out of logic and mistaken in regards to your allegedly LDM spot. Stop advertising in every LDM thread you know where the LDM is and how you found it, because you didn't.
Markmar,
I’ve had to think on your post a bit. Obviously I struck a nerve. 🔥
Perhaps some other time for my response, might be appropriate 👍🤓
 
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Markmar,
It is hard to tell, what Bicknell’s meaning actually is:
Here is a snip from that 1895 article
View attachment 2063114
Bicknell says it’s repeated by Waltz’s only hearer. Then in the next snip below, Bicknell comments on “the woman” being at fault, because she is unsure about east or west for the tributary…. (ahem, route to the mine)
View attachment 2063116
It’s possible that it was not Julia, but someone from her “camp”, although Bick sure indicates it was Julia giving the information (Waltz’ only hearer).

The directions in this account, come from the Peraltas. And Julia must have memorized all this information long before Waltz’ deathbed.

For Bick to think of Julia as Waltz’ only hearer, then either Julia lied to Bick about being only hearer, or it’s because she thought she was. Especially if Rhiney was never paying attention🤓

If Julia was 1 of 3 at the deathbed confession, she wouldn’t be only heater.

Julia going to Hog canyon first, sure looks like she was trying to follow the monumented trail, not the trail given to Holmes.

As far as German clues …. Rhiney was part of that process. I would find it hard pressed to think that happened in haste, just before Waltz died …… remember, Rhiney was a poor student 😜

If folk want to dismiss Bicknell’s 1895 article, that is up to them.
This account of all 3 at the deathbed doesn’t fit, imho……
such a nice clean clip
 

Idahodutch

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Markmar,
I’ve had to think on your post a bit. Obviously I struck a nerve. 🔥
Perhaps some other time for my response, might be appropriate 👍🤓
So it’s a new day, and your post yesterday trying to trash me and my search, begs for a response.

Your blunders and subsequent outbursts spoke volumes, unfortunately not to your credit. 🙁
I sincerely hope you are having a better day today. 😉
 
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Doc4261

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Markmar,
I’ve had to think on your post a bit. Obviously I struck a nerve. 🔥
Perhaps some other time for my response, might be appropriate 👍🤓
Idaho, the ldm is in neither them spots. I'd follow other clues if that what you follow. Personally, I followed maps as clues can be misconstrued. Hope that helps, and points you in a better direction. All I can say to help at this moment in time and Not giving too much away.
One thing is for sure , I will always direct u to the area that u would need to be to find the ldm. Time is too short to be looking in the wrong place.
Tho the mnts are the true treasure. Something can be said bout being out there. 2 words, breath taking. Or one, amazing.
 

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