Old wristwatch in a silver cuff bracelet

tamrock

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I picked this up today at an indoor flea market I frequent. I believe it to be pretty old and a Native American type piece often referred to as Fred Harvey era jewelry. The watch is an old late 20s early 30s style which is pretty much toast, but it does have a 14k gold filled case and those do have a scrap value. The cuff bracelet is 53 grams silver which is not stamped with any purity or makers marks. The settings are a green glass I believe and not turquoise as you might expect them to be and possibly those were added to this as it may have been originally made with out them. I'm thinking that's possibly the small whirling log motifs are partially covered by the settings. Being priced at $12.00 plus tax I couldn't pass on it.
 

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tamrock

tamrock

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It's likely Sterling, in which case you did well! Interesting piece!
It sure looks it, if not sterling maybe coin silver. These old Fred Harvey pieces are very collectible and sought after. Certainly worth more then scrap value.
 

Red-Coat

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Very nice customised piece. The icing on the cake would have been if the bracelet was marked.

Although there are some known exceptions, seven-digit codes on Bulova watch cases produced after 1926 usually have the last digit of the year as the first digit of the serial number. Then from 1940 they used a letter code instead of the first digit, starting from ‘A’, so yours with a letter ’C’ was made in 1942. If I’m misreading that ‘C’ and it’s a digit ‘6’ then it’s from 1936 since you also have a patent date for 11th January 1927 which would have expired in 1944 (17-year term in those days).

It looks to be one of their ‘Sky King’ models. This advertisement from December 1930:

Sky King.jpg

The watch movement will have a different serial number to the case with its own date coding, but the movement and case couldn’t have been ‘married’ before 1942 (if the serial begins with a ‘C’) or before 1936 (if the serial begins with a ‘6’ and I’ve misread it as a ‘C’). The further marriage with the bracelet must have been sometime after that (although the bracelet itself could of course have been an older piece to begin with).
 
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pepperj

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There us a green turquoise also, but I can't really make out the stone from the phone.
What is the scrap value for 14K gold filled?
 

pepperj

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There us a green turquoise also, but I can't really make out the stone from the phone.
What is the scrap value for 14K gold filled?
Ok
I figured it out.
14K=$1.50gram
 
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tamrock

tamrock

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There us a green turquoise also, but I can't really make out the stone from the phone.
What is the scrap value for 14K gold filled?
I'm fairly certain it's molded glass. One stone has a chip and it looks like chipped glass to me.
 

ARC

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Hey Tam cool piece... i have some thoughts if ya care to hear em... if not oh well :P
 
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ARC

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First... Your "glass" could possibly be chalcedony or agate... which were common in many early pieces.
IOW's... turquoise is / was the most common in NAJ yes... but next to that the above stones were close in the line of use and very common.

As far as it being silver... i think the chances are very high it is... otherwise you would be able to see the plating wear by now in this pieces life beings it appears to be "well worn"... now with this said... what purity is speculative... i am surprised you of all people do not have testing solutions... and beyond time to invest in some :P
 

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That's a beautiful find for $12 tamrock. :hello2:
But, I'm thinking the parts have more value if repurposed individually then simply by their 'scrap value'.

Great background information by Red-Coat as well. :thumbsup:

I’m thinking that your wristwatch is a 1930 Bulova 'SKY KING'. In 1930 the Sky King watch was introduced to honor all T.A.T Maddox planes flying in conjunction with the Pennsylvania Railroad spanning the continent in forty-eight hours, fly via Bulova time. In effect introducing the second Bulova commemorative watch, after the Lone Eagle. The 1930 President, Bulova’s top drawer watch from 1925 to 1929 maintained the same case design thru 1929. In 1930, the case engraving design changed to an XXIXXI engraving pattern, emulating the engraving pattern of the 1928-30 Lone Eagle XIXIXI. The Sky King was produced in the same case in 1930 & 1931 only. Variant dials were available in addition to the Lum dial.


If restored and outfitted with a period appropriate band, it could be worth in the $200 - $400 range.

20221119_133818-crop.jpg


I’d have the silver bracelet repurposed to resell as well. I’d consider having it cut down it’s entire length to make two or even three smaller thinner bracelets, which I feel are more desirable in fashion today. I’d remove the turquoise stones though and maybe have red garnets or deep purple amethyst stones set into the bracelets turning them into ‘Birthstone Bracelets.’ :icon_scratch:

20221119_133941-crop.jpg


Just a thought...

RE_12_HOL_SterlingBirthstoneCuff_Beauty_SQ.jpg
 
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tamrock

tamrock

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First... Your "glass" could possibly be chalcedony or agate... which were common in many early pieces.
IOW's... turquoise is / was the most common in NAJ yes... but next to that the above stones were close in the line of use and very common.

As far as it being silver... i think the chances are very high it is... otherwise you would be able to see the plating wear by now in this pieces life beings it appears to be "well worn"... now with this said... what purity is speculative... i am surprised you of all people do not have testing solutions... and beyond time to invest in some :P
Appreciate it ARC. I'm pretty good at identifying real gold or silver by eye. Sure I've been fooled before, but not at a high cost. There are elements about a piece of gold or silver that are signs that speak to what it really is. The color, the weight in your hand and how its all put together will very often be clues to look at other than being marked.
 
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tamrock

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That's a beautiful find for $12 tamrock. :hello2:
But, I'm thinking the parts have more value if repurposed individually then simply by their 'scrap value'.

Great background information by Red-Coat as well. :thumbsup:

I’m thinking that your wristwatch is a 1930 Bulova 'SKY KING'. In 1930 the Sky King watch was introduced to honor all T.A.T Maddox planes flying in conjunction with the Pennsylvania Railroad spanning the continent in forty-eight hours, fly via Bulova time. In effect introducing the second Bulova commemorative watch, after the Lone Eagle. The 1930 President, Bulova’s top drawer watch from 1925 to 1929 maintained the same case design thru 1929. In 1930, the case engraving design changed to an XXIXXI engraving pattern, emulating the engraving pattern of the 1928-30 Lone Eagle XIXIXI. The Sky King was produced in the same case in 1930 & 1931 only. Variant dials were available in addition to the Lum dial.


If restored and outfitted with a period appropriate band, it could be worth in the $200 - $400 range.

View attachment 2056179

I’d have the silver bracelet repurposed to resell as well. I’d consider having it cut down it’s entire length to make two or even three smaller thinner bracelets, which I feel are more desirable in fashion today. I’d remove the turquoise stones though and maybe have red garnets or deep purple amethyst stones set into the bracelets turning them into ‘Birthstone Bracelets.’ :icon_scratch:

View attachment 2056180

Just a thought...

View attachment 2056181
Boy the cost to restore this Bulova would definitely exceed these values you mentioned. My plan is to clean up the cuf
That's a beautiful find for $12 tamrock. :hello2:
But, I'm thinking the parts have more value if repurposed individually then simply by their 'scrap value'.

Great background information by Red-Coat as well. :thumbsup:

I’m thinking that your wristwatch is a 1930 Bulova 'SKY KING'. In 1930 the Sky King watch was introduced to honor all T.A.T Maddox planes flying in conjunction with the Pennsylvania Railroad spanning the continent in forty-eight hours, fly via Bulova time. In effect introducing the second Bulova commemorative watch, after the Lone Eagle. The 1930 President, Bulova’s top drawer watch from 1925 to 1929 maintained the same case design thru 1929. In 1930, the case engraving design changed to an XXIXXI engraving pattern, emulating the engraving pattern of the 1928-30 Lone Eagle XIXIXI. The Sky King was produced in the same case in 1930 & 1931 only. Variant dials were available in addition to the Lum dial.


If restored and outfitted with a period appropriate band, it could be worth in the $200 - $400 range.

View attachment 2056179

I’d have the silver bracelet repurposed to resell as well. I’d consider having it cut down it’s entire length to make two or even three smaller thinner bracelets, which I feel are more desirable in fashion today. I’d remove the turquoise stones though and maybe have red garnets or deep purple amethyst stones set into the bracelets turning them into ‘Birthstone Bracelets.’ :icon_scratch:

View attachment 2056180

Just a thought...

View attachment 2056181
It would exceed the total value of the end result imo to have this old Bulova restored. I'm gonna spiff up the bracelet and put this same era Hamilton that's been cleaned and oiled and running like a top in it.
 

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ARC

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Appreciate it ARC. I'm pretty good at identifying real gold or silver by eye. Sure I've been fooled before, but not at a high cost. There are elements about a piece of gold or silver that are signs that speak to what it really is. The color, the weight in your hand and how its all put together will very often be clues to look at other than being marked.
Errm... was talking primarily about your "glass" not being glass... but stone... heh.
But anyway... now to the watch...

IMO... unless the watch works smoothly... watch would cost more to restore than its worth... i have had several of those exact and watch guys that i know usually pass on em.
Now.... IF... the watch were an Omega or the caliber,,, then yes watch would be worth restoring IN THAT condition.

If watch was mine... i would TRY to get 20 bucks as is.
Your value is in the watch cuff... IF real.

Just know you prolly are not the first to inspect / check this if you got it at a flea market.
Not trying to bust the bubble... just being the voice of a reality check.
 
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Scrounge Wanderer

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I picked this up today at an indoor flea market I frequent. I believe it to be pretty old and a Native American type piece often referred to as Fred Harvey era jewelry. The watch is an old late 20s early 30s style which is pretty much toast, but it does have a 14k gold filled case and those do have a scrap value. The cuff bracelet is 53 grams silver which is not stamped with any purity or makers marks. The settings are a green glass I believe and not turquoise as you might expect them to be and possibly those were added to this as it may have been originally made with out them. I'm thinking that's possibly the small whirling log motifs are partially covered by the settings. Being priced at $12.00 plus tax I couldn't pass on it.
nice work I like the gold fish style border on the watch face, southwest silver is always cool!
 
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tamrock

tamrock

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Ok
I figured it out.
14K=$1.50gram
I've only sold small amounts of gold filled or rolled gold fill on eBay, but I do save it. The PM buyer I mostly deal with told me he pays about the same as he would pay on solid sterling silver on these layered in gold items. I have auctioned small piles of what I've accumulated before on eBay and pending on what exactly you have being rolled gold watch cases or 1/10 12k GF kind of stuff will depend on what bidders will pay. Some of folks that do buy this type of scrap are actually refining this type of gold scrap. This I believe is because I researched the activity of one buyer and found he was also buying items that relate to the refining of scrap gold layered items. Also you will find plenty of videos on how to do the refining yourself. It looks like a messy process to me. But for now I'll just keep on saving up the stuff I come by cheap, because it does have gold value. Anything that's electro plate gold has very little gold value as it's a very thin layer of actual gold and not worth saving imo.
 

Kuwanki

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Hi Tamrock! i agree with the minority opinion that the stones are not glass (i don't know what they are). Also, i don't believe they were added after the initial bracelet was made. The swirling logs are not really obscured, i think the brazing just came out a little further than the smith intended. i am in the Native American art business, and i would be interested in acquiring the cuff bracelet (with a watch) from you. Please think about it.
 
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tamrock

tamrock

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Hi Tamrock! i agree with the minority opinion that the stones are not glass (i don't know what they are). Also, i don't believe they were added after the initial bracelet was made. The swirling logs are not really obscured, i think the brazing just came out a little further than the smith intended. i am in the Native American art business, and i would be interested in acquiring the cuff bracelet (with a watch) from you. Please think about it.
Yeah maybe they are a natural stone. I'm gonna keep it and add another good running vintage watch to it. I'll have those stones looked at. I have a business relationship with a large gem and minerals dealer called Collectors Edge. https://collectorsedge.com/ Maybe their international buyer who've I've known for years can shed some light on what these stones are?
 
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tamrock

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Hi Tamrock! i agree with the minority opinion that the stones are not glass (i don't know what they are). Also, i don't believe they were added after the initial bracelet was made. The swirling logs are not really obscured, i think the brazing just came out a little further than the smith intended. i am in the Native American art business, and i would be interested in acquiring the cuff bracelet (with a watch) from you. Please think about it.
Say, Kuwanki - When do you think this cuff bracelet was made?. I believe a fair amount of the old southwest native jewelry were never signed.
 

ARC

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"Most Native American made items from the 1930s and before would not have a STERLING stamp nor any artist hallmark for that matter. But there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to hallmarks – there are always exceptions.

Some items made in the 1940s to 1950s might have the STERLING stamp, most notably, those made by Bell Traders during that time period.

But in general, Native American artists began using the STERLING stamp in the 1950s and 1960s. Since then, the STERLING or Sterling or 925 stamps are quite common as are artists’ hallmarks."
 

pepperj

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Boy the cost to restore this Bulova would definitely exceed these values you mentioned. My plan is to clean up the cuf

It would exceed the total value of the end result imo to have this old Bulova restored. I'm gonna spiff up the bracelet and put this same era Hamilton that's been cleaned and oiled and running like a top in it.
Nice movement
I have always liked Hamilton watches (I own one) Kind like being partial to a Ford/Chevy type thing.
You probably know this already but some probably don't.
Screen Shot 2022-12-06 at 7.18.19 PM.png
 

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