Peralta Cabbage?

Clay Diggins

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I've always wondered why the first "Peralta" stone map has the most prominent inscription:

EL COBOLLO DE SANTA FE

There is no current use of the word cobollo in Spanish but some older Spanish documents used it as an extension of the noun "col" which is the Spanish root word for cabbage family vegetables. The most reasonable translation is "The cabbage of Holy Faith". Or Cobollo could refer to a family name? "The family of Holy Faith"?

Of course there is the addition of
YO PASTO AL NORTE DEL RIO

which translates:
I GRAZE TO THE NORTH FROM THE RIVER

That, the composition of the stones and the cartoon pony reinforce my thought that these stones were created by a modern jokester. Quite possibly DeGrazia and his friends.

Has anyone else studied the rather strange "Spanish" used on the stones?
 

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Clay Diggins

Clay Diggins

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I would wonder if the word was intended to be caballo? That is Spanish for “horse” and might make sense with the grazing reference and of the pony. Just a thought.
Wouldn't that be contrary to the notion that these maps are accurate, from an earlier period and made by a Spanish speaking person? Unless of course that Spanish speaking person was a prankster doing a play on words. :hello:
 

Blackfoot58

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Wouldn't that be contrary to the notion that these maps are accurate, from an earlier period and made by a Spanish speaking person? Unless of course that Spanish speaking person was a prankster doing a play on words. :hello:
Or their writing was misread. a and o aren’t a lot different. IDK
 

releventchair

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(Cola De )Caballo =horsetail plant?

R.09e80183d64297a0d4398f92ff8e39a8



Note the wizard? (Jester.)
Recent stuff.

 

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JohnWhite

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Who knows what is meant by said references???

Oh well…Life will go on and we will always wonder…

IF the price is right I will share my solve with he or those who antes up…

Ed T
 

releventchair

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Marin was destroyed in the Mexican War. But would be rebuilt in time.

An 1847 account.(Priest map / Priest reference when looking for 1847 Priests traveling. And where one stayed. Not by choice. While the other went back to the U.S..) Pgs. 104-105.
 

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Clay Diggins

Clay Diggins

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The joke seemed obvious to me. I guess no one here has ever fed a horse cabbage?
The gas from the cabbage can kill a horse and those nearby will experience great blasts of .... uh "material" and gas from the posterior of the horse.
I think there is a poorly hidden meaning here. One word that starts with "horse" and ends with "it". :icon_scratch:
 

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JohnWhite

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Everyone is entitled to their opinion Clay…Everyone has one…Something that is also known as a donkey and the ending rhymes with goal…

Ed T
 

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Clay Diggins

Clay Diggins

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Everyone is entitled to their opinion Clay…Everyone has one…Something that is also known as a donkey and the ending rhymes with goal…

Ed T
But if we spelled the words for common objects based on our opinions cobollo would probably have been spelled hors - or donke (az?) in your example.

Sometimes facts, like the spelling of words, really do matter. My or your opinion on how to spell automobile isn't really a factor in human communication. You can probably eventually figure out that I'm writing about a car if I write "ottomotile" but why confuse a simple subject by injecting my opinion about the best way to spell automobile?

Someone spent some time making those rocks. The letters are carefully incised, equal in weight and spacing yet we are to assume a Spanish speaking writer taking such great care didn't know how to spell "horse"? Really? :icon_scratch:

Every little scratch and bump on these rocks has been discussed and treated as a clue by hundreds of people. Clearly cobollo is not caballo - couldn't that be a clue? Shouldn't it be a clue?

Why should we assume the pony or the cobollo or anything else on the rocks is a clue to a mine location? Why couldn't these clues add up to the solution to a very elaborate prank? Or nothing at all? (which is what has been found in the last 70 years since the rocks were made public) They could be directions to a good restaurant in Sinaloa. Maybe that restaurant is the Coballo?

It's a fact that the clue that a lot of seekers have missed is that cobollo does not spell horse in any language - despite the distraction of the pony cartoon. I'm hoping someone here has an actual informed opinion about why the non word cobollo is so prominant on this rock. I've provided my opinion based on what I know of some of the characters involved that could have made the rocks and provided a motive for them to do so. Do you have an informed opinion about the meaning of cobollo?
 

JohnWhite

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All that I can say for certain is…Whoever created the PSM’s did it in a heavily coded way…Maybe they had a reason for spelling it the way that they did…

I am just saying…I like so many others claim to have solved said stones…

And as for Sinaloa…You as well as anyone and everyone is entitled to search where ever you so do choose…

I still claim to have a small amount of ore from what I believe to be the coazon of said stones…It could be a coyote hole or an outcrop…I will not confirm nor deny exactly what the location is…

IF anyone does ever decide to ante up…I just may remember where the ore came from…Only time will tell…I could care less IF I ever return to said site…I have been there and I have done that…

Ed T
 

markmar

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But if we spelled the words for common objects based on our opinions cobollo would probably have been spelled hors - or donke (az?) in your example.

Sometimes facts, like the spelling of words, really do matter. My or your opinion on how to spell automobile isn't really a factor in human communication. You can probably eventually figure out that I'm writing about a car if I write "ottomotile" but why confuse a simple subject by injecting my opinion about the best way to spell automobile?

Someone spent some time making those rocks. The letters are carefully incised, equal in weight and spacing yet we are to assume a Spanish speaking writer taking such great care didn't know how to spell "horse"? Really? :icon_scratch:

Every little scratch and bump on these rocks has been discussed and treated as a clue by hundreds of people. Clearly cobollo is not caballo - couldn't that be a clue? Shouldn't it be a clue?

Why should we assume the pony or the cobollo or anything else on the rocks is a clue to a mine location? Why couldn't these clues add up to the solution to a very elaborate prank? Or nothing at all? (which is what has been found in the last 70 years since the rocks were made public) They could be directions to a good restaurant in Sinaloa. Maybe that restaurant is the Coballo?

It's a fact that the clue that a lot of seekers have missed is that cobollo does not spell horse in any language - despite the distraction of the pony cartoon. I'm hoping someone here has an actual informed opinion about why the non word cobollo is so prominant on this rock. I've provided my opinion based on what I know of some of the characters involved that could have made the rocks and provided a motive for them to do so. Do you have an informed opinion about the meaning of cobollo?

The word " COBOLLO " it's not misspelled, but validate the authenticity of the map. The Jesuits copied the Spanish style and codes in making maps, adding also their own style which differ with the Spanish because in the most cases they didn't use a cardinal point of orientation.
If you look closer to the letters of the words, they are not the same in shape, and this because they followed rows of rocks on the ground in regards to make letters and whatever they wanted to depict on the map. If they wrote COBOLLO on the map, it's because they couldn't find rows for CABALLO. So simple.
 

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Clay Diggins

Clay Diggins

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The word " COBOLLO " it's not misspelled, but validate the authenticity of the map. The Jesuits copied the Spanish style and codes in making maps, adding also their own style which differ with the Spanish because in the most cases they didn't use a cardinal point of orientation.
I think you are talking out of your posterior. I'm a professional cartographer and I've studied map making in the Americas for years. I'll share with you some of what I have learned. Please notice I have included links to some information that may help you understand map making in Arizona during this time period.

First - the Spanish had some very good mapmakers but the Portuguese, Dutch and later the French were the masters of map making during this time. During the colonial period all the powers carefully guarded their maps and map making techniques. Maps were state secrets much like atomic fusion or hypersonic missiles are today. You can't conquer new lands if you don't know where you are. For this reason the Jesuits could not copy the "Spanish style" because they weren't allowed to study the current Spanish maps of the time. It wasn't a matter of secret map codes, the world powers didn't need codes on their maps because they protected the physical maps themselves. If an explorer or army needed a map one was drawn with just the features needed for the job, nobody got free access to the whole map except the rulers.

Second - you are assuming the Jesuits were Spanish. This was rarely true. Most Jesuits were university educated French, Croatians and Italians. Father Kino was Italian. He received his university education in Innsbruck Austria.

Third - Father Kino was one of the most accomplished mapmakers of his time. His most famous map was Passage by Land to California. Discovered by Father Eusebius Francis Kino, a Jesuit, Between the Years 1698 & 1701 Containing Likewise the New Missions of the Jesuits. That map changed the world and is still famous today as one of the most influential maps in history both for the fact he proved California was not an island and for the quality of the mapping work.

Here are some things that are important to notice on the above Kino map:
  • The area North of Casa Grande all the way to Moqui is left blank except for the word "Apaches". It wasn't until after the Spanish era that the area North of Casa Grande, including the Superstitions, was explored.
  • See how Casa Grande is spelled with that funny thing that looks more like an f than an s? That is an s written in the style of the time - it's called a long s and it was used in the Roman alphabet until the early 19th century no matter what language it was written in. There was a set of rules when to use the long s as opposed to a regular (round) s. This is a very important letter when you are studying old writings - if there is no long s then the writing is not historical it's modern.
  • The title of the map includes "the new missions for the Jesuits". If you had any question about what missions and Spanish settlements existed at the time this very detailed map gives each location and the ranch owner. It is by far the most accurate and reliable account of the extent of Spanish settlement in Arizona.

Father Kino was also well known for his scientific writings about determining accurate map positioning and how to conform a map to latitude and longitude. So much for your theory that Spanish, Jesuit or any other mapmakers didn't employ cardinal positioning. Maybe actually look at some Spanish maps from that time period, it will be immediately obvious that no matter what country made the maps they all used cardinal positioning.

So you have one of the greatest mapmakers of the time living, mapping and working in Southern Arizona. If there was any mapping knowledge passed down from Kino it was the best quality available. Assuming Spanish mapmakers were idiots or bumbling fools that didn't know how to spell common words or relied on the position of rocks to guide their grammar are very weak theories unsupported by history or practice.
 

markmar

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I think you are talking out of your posterior. I'm a professional cartographer and I've studied map making in the Americas for years. I'll share with you some of what I have learned. Please notice I have included links to some information that may help you understand map making in Arizona during this time period.

First - the Spanish had some very good mapmakers but the Portuguese, Dutch and later the French were the masters of map making during this time. During the colonial period all the powers carefully guarded their maps and map making techniques. Maps were state secrets much like atomic fusion or hypersonic missiles are today. You can't conquer new lands if you don't know where you are. For this reason the Jesuits could not copy the "Spanish style" because they weren't allowed to study the current Spanish maps of the time. It wasn't a matter of secret map codes, the world powers didn't need codes on their maps because they protected the physical maps themselves. If an explorer or army needed a map one was drawn with just the features needed for the job, nobody got free access to the whole map except the rulers.

Second - you are assuming the Jesuits were Spanish. This was rarely true. Most Jesuits were university educated French, Croatians and Italians. Father Kino was Italian. He received his university education in Innsbruck Austria.

Third - Father Kino was one of the most accomplished mapmakers of his time. His most famous map was Passage by Land to California. Discovered by Father Eusebius Francis Kino, a Jesuit, Between the Years 1698 & 1701 Containing Likewise the New Missions of the Jesuits. That map changed the world and is still famous today as one of the most influential maps in history both for the fact he proved California was not an island and for the quality of the mapping work.

Here are some things that are important to notice on the above Kino map:
  • The area North of Casa Grande all the way to Moqui is left blank except for the word "Apaches". It wasn't until after the Spanish era that the area North of Casa Grande, including the Superstitions, was explored.
  • See how Casa Grande is spelled with that funny thing that looks more like an f than an s? That is an s written in the style of the time - it's called a long s and it was used in the Roman alphabet until the early 19th century no matter what language it was written in. There was a set of rules when to use the long s as opposed to a regular (round) s. This is a very important letter when you are studying old writings - if there is no long s then the writing is not historical it's modern.
  • The title of the map includes "the new missions for the Jesuits". If you had any question about what missions and Spanish settlements existed at the time this very detailed map gives each location and the ranch owner. It is by far the most accurate and reliable account of the extent of Spanish settlement in Arizona.

Father Kino was also well known for his scientific writings about determining accurate map positioning and how to conform a map to latitude and longitude. So much for your theory that Spanish, Jesuit or any other mapmakers didn't employ cardinal positioning. Maybe actually look at some Spanish maps from that time period, it will be immediately obvious that no matter what country made the maps they all used cardinal positioning.

So you have one of the greatest mapmakers of the time living, mapping and working in Southern Arizona. If there was any mapping knowledge passed down from Kino it was the best quality available. Assuming Spanish mapmakers were idiots or bumbling fools that didn't know how to spell common words or relied on the position of rocks to guide their grammar are very weak theories unsupported by history or practice.

I was writing about TREASURE maps and not about topographic maps. Also I was writing about Spanish and Jesuit TREASURE maps because they were more frecvent in the Southwest US. If you believe a Spanish-Mexican-Jesuit treasure map shows the topographic feature of a region then you are deriding yourself.
Kino was not a treasure map maker and also I didn't write the Jesuits were Spanish.

PS
You may be a professional cartographer, but I may be a professional Spanish-Mexican-Jesuit treasure maps reader.
 

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Clay Diggins

Clay Diggins

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I was writing about TREASURE maps and not about topographic maps. Also I was writing about Spanish and Jesuit TREASURE maps because they were more frecvent in the Southwest US. If you believe a Spanish-Mexican-Jesuit treasure map shows the topographic feature of a region then you are deriding yourself.
Kino was not a treasure map maker and also I didn't write the Jesuits were Spanish.

PS
You may be a professional cartographer, but I may be a professional Spanish-Mexican-Jesuit treasure maps reader.
Yes you may be. How's the pay scale for professional Spanish-Mexican-Jesuit treasure map readers? Currently highly experienced professional mining cartographers, like myself, are in huge demand and the pay is excellent. No lack of work here.

Father Kino most certainly did make treasure maps. The Spanish crown was very pleased with the treasures discovered by Father Kino. Without a doubt the Spanish' main object for exploration was treasure. As I wrote Kino is still famous today for the work he did describing the treasures of the New World. Maybe read some of his writings, they are an incredible collection of previously unknown facts about the people, resources and geography of Arizona.

I'm not an expert in your style TREASURE maps. In fact I know of no verified TREASURE maps from the Spanish period. The Spanish relied on internal secrecy rather than coded or non relational mapping. Are the rules of grammar different for TREASURE maps? (long s, round R and all that) If TREASURE maps don't describe places (topology) what do they depict? By definition maps do depict the relationship between places. In what way do your TREASURE maps not depict places and the relationships between them?

David Rumsey has shared the largest and possibly most important map collection in the world and it's all free online. Do a search there for TREASURE or treasure maps. I haven't found any but it's a big collection - 228 maps found with search for Treasure. Maybe if you search there you can offer a verified example of a Spanish treasure map? Sure would like to see one. :thumbsup:
 

markmar

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IMO, you are little confused. You believe treasures are the beauty of landscapes and few rare topographic maps.
In the treasure hunting world , in which I believe you don't belong, treasures are gold mines and caches which hold gold bars and another precious items.
The maps for treasure have not any relation with geographic and topographic maps. You will never find something depicted in a map for treasure using the obvious characteristics ( canyons, rivers ) of a topographical or geographical map. The Spanish maps for treasure use a different definition than the common maps that you are aware of.
Here is an example: a Mexican map made by Reinaldo for gold and silver mines in Utah. In this map you can see the river Timpanogos( todays Provo River ) and the river Santa Ana ( todays Weber River ). From my experience, this map shows two different regions which also has two different scales, in the same map. If you have little time, try to fit these maps to a geographical or a topographical map of that specific region/s.
 

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Clay Diggins

Clay Diggins

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IMO, you are little confused. You believe treasures are the beauty of landscapes and few rare topographic maps.
In the treasure hunting world , in which I believe you don't belong, treasures are gold mines and caches which hold gold bars and another precious items.
Not confused at all. I own a producing gold mine in New Mexico. I am well known and respected in the mining world. Treasure comes from mines. I know a lot about mines and how to get the treasure out of them. I make a living discovering treasure buried in the earth. It seems someone searching for treasure buried in the earth would want to keep a professional successful treasure finder around. Why do you think I don't belong here?
 

markmar

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Not confused at all. I own a producing gold mine in New Mexico. I am well known and respected in the mining world. Treasure comes from mines. I know a lot about mines and how to get the treasure out of them. I make a living discovering treasure buried in the earth. It seems someone searching for treasure buried in the earth would want to keep a professional successful treasure finder around. Why do you think I don't belong here?
You belong here but not in the real treasure hunting world. You need more than documents written in State's archives.
Good luck with your gold mine, At least you have a treasure to brag yourself.
 

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Clay Diggins

Clay Diggins

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You belong here but not in the real treasure hunting world. You need more than documents written in State's archives.
You belong here but not in the real treasure hunting world. You need more than documents written in State's archives.
Good luck with your gold mine, At least you have a treasure to brag yourself.
Interesting... you come on my thread, refuse to engage with any facts regarding the subject of the thread, inform me that I don't belong here and don't know what a treasure is and then make up some BS story about how I only use "documents in State archives".

There are no documents from State archives on this thread and I rarely rely on State documents in my research. I do however insist that I know the origination and source of the documents I use in my research. Without that documentation I would be wasting my efforts chasing down every made up "clue" or unattributed poor quality "map" that pops up on the internet. I am a very accomplished researcher and I long ago learned the pitfalls of relying on untraceable unverifiable clues.

The stones are, at this point, an unverified, untraceable and obscure clue. Many feel they have some value despite their short and obscure history. I started this thread to try to unravel what to me is the most obvious and glaring clue on the stones - the non word cobollo. It's surprising to me that this most obvious clue has gone investigated and unmentioned by anyone studying the stones. It appears most people don't speak Spanish and just assume cobollo is the same as cabollo, it isn't.

Obviously your sources are unknown or you wish to keep them secret. Good for you!

I do wonder why you are on this particular forum. You have discovered what everyone is looking for yet you refuse to share any details of your find. What's the point of being here? Are you enjoying all the little people who are so clueless that they don't know what is so obvious to you? Do you enjoy watching others fail where you have succeeded?

Feel free to hang out and comment on this and any other thread you wish. The owners of Tnet have provided a great tool for their users. Feel free to tell everyone they are wrong without explanation. Feel free to tell posters that they don't belong. You won - you found the richest mine. Congratulations!

For my part I'm just looking for a reasonable explanation based on facts or knowledge what the non word cobollo means and how that would fit in with the pony and the magician and all the rest. It would be nice to know what facts could lead so many people to believe these stones are connected to a Mexican family. It would be nice to know what facts could lead so many people to believe these stones are connected to Waltz.
 

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