Revolutionary War Plate of Some Kind

[Lost Signal]

Okay, I'm not sure what this is. It was caked with clay/dirt. I could see a little bit of silver along one edge, so I put it in some lemon juice and water and brushed it with a soft brush. I couldn't believe it when I saw the lion. There was some Revolutionary War action in the region and I assumed it had to be British military, but there is no regiment number and no text, so now I'm doubting it. Although, Insignia of Independence does show some cartridge bag badges that do not have any numbers or letters.
The site had a few tombac buttons but also early 19th century stuff.
The piece is copper alloy with a thick silver plate. It's slightly convex and probably had at least four prongs on the back that seem to have been worked off. The measurements are
3 1/2" X 2 5/8"
Any ideas?

 

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[ARC]

PS... now that i am immersed in this now..

IMO... this is a "badge".

 

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[ANTIQUARIAN]

What a beautiful find, I'd be thrilled to recover something like this someday.
Beautiful restoration job too.
Dave

 

[ARC]

Ok... after some poking around... The image ON the banner is the key here...
The Griffin... held by lion is the key IMO... ?

So... your searches should be along the lines of "lion holding griffin banner"
For it is a "banner"... not a "flag" being held.
The reason i immediately ruled this out as a "coat of arms"... is simple.
It has no supporters.

anyway... i am all over the place... here is a great link to Fox-Davies - https://www.gutenberg.org/files/41617/41617-h/41617-h.htm

Also.... https://armorial.library.utoronto.ca/ordinaries/banner

REd coat... would it be something like...

"Out of a mural a demi lion rampant holding a banner griffin passant" ? ? ?

 

[pepperj]

This is a great study on the subject of Heraldry. Long read but scan down

​

CHAPTER XI​

THE HERALDIC LION​

From the images one can get sense to figuring out a timeline of styles

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/41617/41617-h/41617-h.htm

Then the Griffin styles in this chapter

CHAPTER XIII​

MONSTERS​

Then there's the mural cornet

Taken from

CHAPTER XXIII​

CREST CORONETS AND CHAPEAUX​

"
Care should be taken to distinguish the mural crown from the "battlements of a tower." This originated as a modern "fakement" and is often granted to those who have been using a mural coronet, and desire to continue within its halo, but are not qualified to obtain in their own persons a grant of it. It should be noticed that the battlements of a tower must always be represented upon a wreath. Its facility for adding a noticeable distinction to a crest has, however, in these days, when it is becoming somewhat difficult to introduce differences in a stock pattern kind of crest, led to its very frequent use in grants during the last hundred years.

Care should also be taken to distinguish between the "battlements of a tower" and a crest issuing from "a castle,"

Hope this adds to the debate of what, when, who, where, why of this great recovery

 

[ARC]

It is IMO... a "Demi lion".... with "forked griffin passant pennon"

Oh yeah... another link for you peeps to check out...

https://www.hasdk12.org/cms/lib3/PA01001366/Centricity/Domain/912/The%20Meanings%20Behind%20the%20Symbols.pdf

And yet another of interest to at least me... and perhaps others....

A GLOSSARY OF TERMS USED IN HERALDRY by JAMES PARKER

 

[ARC]

 

[ARC]

 

[Red-Coat]

REd coat... would it be something like...

"Out of a mural a demi lion rampant holding a banner griffin passant" ? ? ?

Yes, it would. The term “out of” is sometimes expressed as “issuant” (issuing from), the mural on the plate is specifically a “mural crown”, and one could further qualify the animal attitudes as “left” (facing)… so “griffin passant, left” would be the terminology for example.

Generically, the heraldic term “flag” covers all emblems of that type. If being more definitive, it’s not a banner since that specifically refers to a flag which is square or oblong, and large. The specific terminology for other types (although not strictly adhered to) would designate it to be a “pennon” or “banderole”, but “flag” would suffice.

Pennon: smaller than a banner, elongated and coming to a point or split to a swallow-tail at the fly (when swallow-tailed it’s also known as a banderole).

Standard: larger, with size (as length) dependent on rank/status when used as a personal flag. Usually it tapers, the fly end can be swallow-tailed and sometimes rounded rather than pointed. In England it usually has the cross of St George at the staff end and any other heraldic emblems to the side of it.

Gonfalone: multiple forms, but always hung vertically from a cross-bar

Guidon (often Scotland): size between pennon and standard, tapering to a rounded unsplit end at the fly.

Pinsel (mainly Scotland): triangular in shape, tapering to a point at the fly.

 

[Bayyrat58]

Okay, I'm not sure what this is. It was caked with clay/dirt. I could see a little bit of silver along one edge, so I put it in some lemon juice and water and brushed it with a soft brush. I couldn't believe it when I saw the lion. There was some Revolutionary War action in the region and I assumed it had to be British military, but there is no regiment number and no text, so now I'm doubting it. Although, Insignia of Independence does show some cartridge bag badges that do not have any numbers or letters.
The site had a few tombac buttons but also early 19th century stuff.
The piece is copper alloy with a thick silver plate. It's slightly convex and probably had at least four prongs on the back that seem to have been worked off. The measurements are
3 1/2" X 2 5/8"
Any ideas?

It looks to me like an Irish family crest.

 

[Red-Coat]

It looks to me like an Irish family crest.

Welcome to Tnet.

... and what elements of it lead you to that conclusion?

 

[Lost Signal]

Thanks for all the research, everyone (especially ARC). I'm still going to try to get a photo to the website that Cru recommended. If it's livery related and associated with a specific family, they'll know. There's an equal chance that it's a fabrication, or both could be true.

Anyway, I've turned my attention to the question, "what was it doing here?" A friend of mine at lunch suggested that it might have been brought over by a visiting relative, and that seems pretty plausible to me. I definitely don't think that folks living in the southern U.S. in the early 19th century were making ornamental plates with European heraldic symbols, and they weren't having their slaves wear livery buttons etc.. but I could see a relative, from England, bringing some family-related objects on a visit. Or, a landowner bringing something back from a trip abroad. Maybe?

Anyway, thanks again for all the input.

 

[Red-Coat]

... I've turned my attention to the question, "what was it doing here?" A friend of mine at lunch suggested that it might have been brought over by a visiting relative, and that seems pretty plausible to me. I definitely don't think that folks living in the southern U.S. in the early 19th century were making ornamental plates with European heraldic symbols, and they weren't having their slaves wear livery buttons etc.. but I could see a relative, from England, bringing some family-related objects on a visit. Or, a landowner bringing something back from a trip abroad. Maybe?

I kinda think this is a bit of a misconception. Broadly the case, but with many exceptions. The exceptions being in the minority may partly explain the rarity of such items (as well as the fact that they would in any case have only been required in small numbers to meet family or individual needs).

If you Google say “American plantation family coat of arms” you will find a fair proportion of such holdings were in the hands of families with British heritage. Those coats of arms were certainly in use (at times when Britishness was not out-of-favour), together with associated family crests for reasons of prestige. Particularly since many plantations had a large customer base back in Britain. It wasn’t uncommon for those in the category of “new money” without noble heritage to pay for a crest to be created for them, or use a generic one, so as not to be disadvantaged by their better-connected peers.

I observed such crests with “British” heraldic imagery on items displayed in some of the mansion houses converted to museums on a few plantation ‘tours’ I did during my travels in the Deep South. It’s also not the case that the immigrant rich folk who spawned America’s “gentry” didn’t use livery related to their family origins. Slave workers in the field of course wouldn’t have livery buttons, but where the “rich white” had a lifestyle that encompassed staff such as butlers, footmen and coachmen or whatever, they did. Again, those would be in the minority compared to the larger number of smaller plantations with less affluent owners.

Crested items, whether livery or not, weren’t just imported from Britain either. Here’s a couple of livery button with “British” heraldry but with American ‘Scovill’ backmarks dating to c.1850 for example:



By no means the only American examples, nor with Scovill as the only producer.

 

[Hunk-a-lead]

Okay, I'm not sure what this is. It was caked with clay/dirt. I could see a little bit of silver along one edge, so I put it in some lemon juice and water and brushed it with a soft brush. I couldn't believe it when I saw the lion. There was some Revolutionary War action in the region and I assumed it had to be British military, but there is no regiment number and no text, so now I'm doubting it. Although, Insignia of Independence does show some cartridge bag badges that do not have any numbers or letters.
The site had a few tombac buttons but also early 19th century stuff.
The piece is copper alloy with a thick silver plate. It's slightly convex and probably had at least four prongs on the back that seem to have been worked off. The measurements are
3 1/2" X 2 5/8"
Any ideas?

gorgeous, great find

 

[Lost Signal]

I kinda think this is a bit of a misconception. Broadly the case, but with many exceptions. The exceptions being in the minority may partly explain the rarity of such items (as well as the fact that they would in any case have only been required in small numbers to meet family or individual needs).

If you Google say “American plantation family coat of arms” you will find a fair proportion of such holdings were in the hands of families with British heritage. Those coats of arms were certainly in use (at times when Britishness was not out-of-favour), together with associated family crests for reasons of prestige. Particularly since many plantations had a large customer base back in Britain. It wasn’t uncommon for those in the category of “new money” without noble heritage to pay for a crest to be created for them, or use a generic one, so as not to be disadvantaged by their better-connected peers.

I observed such crests with “British” heraldic imagery on items displayed in some of the mansion houses converted to museums on a few plantation ‘tours’ I did during my travels in the Deep South. It’s also not the case that the immigrant rich folk who spawned America’s “gentry” didn’t use livery related to their family origins. Slave workers in the field of course wouldn’t have livery buttons, but where the “rich white” had a lifestyle that encompassed staff such as butlers, footmen and coachmen or whatever, they did. Again, those would be in the minority compared to the larger number of smaller plantations with less affluent owners.

Crested items, whether livery or not, weren’t just imported from Britain either. Here’s a couple of livery button with “British” heraldry but with American ‘Scovill’ backmarks dating to c.1850 for example:

View attachment 1988991

By no means the only American examples, nor with Scovill as the only producer.

I think you've put a bow on it with this post. I started the thread, hoping that I had a Rev war relic, and ended up learning a lot about a subject that I knew nothing about. And, I still have a rare find that will make an awesome display. Thanks, again.

 

[fyrffytr1]

Okay, I'm not sure what this is. It was caked with clay/dirt. I could see a little bit of silver along one edge, so I put it in some lemon juice and water and brushed it with a soft brush. I couldn't believe it when I saw the lion. There was some Revolutionary War action in the region and I assumed it had to be British military, but there is no regiment number and no text, so now I'm doubting it. Although, Insignia of Independence does show some cartridge bag badges that do not have any numbers or letters.
The site had a few tombac buttons but also early 19th century stuff.
The piece is copper alloy with a thick silver plate. It's slightly convex and probably had at least four prongs on the back that seem to have been worked off. The measurements are
3 1/2" X 2 5/8"
Any ideas?

Have you tried contacting Don Troiani?

Don Troiani | Official Website

www.dontroiani.com

 

[ARC]

Thanks for all the research, everyone (especially ARC). I'm still going to try to get a photo to the website that Cru recommended. If it's livery related and associated with a specific family, they'll know. There's an equal chance that it's a fabrication, or both could be true.

Anyway, I've turned my attention to the question, "what was it doing here?" A friend of mine at lunch suggested that it might have been brought over by a visiting relative, and that seems pretty plausible to me. I definitely don't think that folks living in the southern U.S. in the early 19th century were making ornamental plates with European heraldic symbols, and they weren't having their slaves wear livery buttons etc.. but I could see a relative, from England, bringing some family-related objects on a visit. Or, a landowner bringing something back from a trip abroad. Maybe?

Anyway, thanks again for all the input.

Your welcome... But i would say that RedCoat put more into this than I though.

I want to address your comment concerning "early 19th century"... FOR... IMO...
I think this piece is from WAY earlier than that.

Now... with that said... i could be totally off with this assumption... for that is truly all it is.
I say this is from way earlier for several reasons... one of which is due to simple "gut feeling".

After a life of staring and studying things... every aspect of this piece smells of age.
I am putting this back to late 1700's... EARLY at best 1800's.

IF i had to bet on this opinion... i would.

 

[cw0909]

found this site, dont remember the search phrase that got me there
looked around the Heraldic Charges Gallery, and followed the coronet mural
saw a griffin statant listed in Peyton (Stamp 1) looked at it, looks close
to the one on lost signals item. i clicked and use some of the phrases from
Red Coat post in search, guess I just dont know the term/phrase to search
I'm at a loss,maybe someone knows what term to search

coronet, mural

Heraldic Charges Gallery | British Armorial Bindings

armorial.library.utoronto.ca

Peyton (Stamp 1) griffin statant

griffin statant | British Armorial Bindings

armorial.library.utoronto.ca

edit
forgot i found more griffin & a demi-lion holding a forked pennon

Heraldic Charges Gallery | British Armorial Bindings

armorial.library.utoronto.ca

| British Armorial Bindings

armorial.library.utoronto.ca

 

[Red-Coat]

found this site, dont remember the search phrase that got me there
looked around the Heraldic Charges Gallery, and followed the coronet mural
saw a griffin statant listed in Peyton (Stamp 1) looked at it, looks close
to the one on lost signals item. i clicked and use some of the phrases from
Red Coat post in search, guess I just dont know the term/phrase to search
I'm at a loss,maybe someone knows what term to search

coronet, mural

Heraldic Charges Gallery | British Armorial Bindings

armorial.library.utoronto.ca

Peyton (Stamp 1) griffin statant

griffin statant | British Armorial Bindings

armorial.library.utoronto.ca

edit
forgot i found more griffin & a demi-lion holding a forked pennon

Heraldic Charges Gallery | British Armorial Bindings

armorial.library.utoronto.ca

| British Armorial Bindings

armorial.library.utoronto.ca

It could be a long search to track this down... and potentially a search that doesn't actually lead to the identity who might have used this crest.

For info, the griffin you pictured is "statant", but the one on the plate is "passant".

Mural "coronet" is correct, as more specifically describing the crown type.

 

[ARC]

"Demi Lion Rampant with Griffin passant".

 

[Red-Coat]

"Demi Lion Rampant with Griffin passant".

Yep. In full...

Demi lion rampant, left, holding a pennon [flag] emblazoned with a griffin passant, left; the lion issuing from a mural coronet.