Rock Walls and Piles in deep woods of KY

[Charl]

This is a great read and overview, and while it deals with discovering that natives built in stone in eastern Pa., it’s food for thought to just realize the Eastern woodlands hide sites in plain site that are likely related in time/purpose, or, at the least, evidence that some remains long thought settler activity are older. Of course, the Pa. Oley Hills site is pretty dramatic compared to most potential CSL sites in the eastern US. All this is just to say, since all this is relatively new research, and new realization, no harm in simply keeping it in mind whenever roaming woods in eastern states….

Finding Meaning in Stone - Pennsylvania Historic Preservation

Nothing excites the imagination like an unanswered question, and since spring I’ve been exploring a little-recognized mystery here in Pennsylvania. New England has a tradition of dry-laid stone cairns, walls, and chambers that have been variously interpreted over the years as colonial field...

pahistoricpreservation.com

 

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[newnan man]

A lot of farms in Southern Ohio had rock piles but they were close enough to the fields that it was evident the farmers were stacking them as the plow was turning them up. I've never seen piles in the woods or on hilltops.

 

[Charl]

A lot of farms in Southern Ohio had rock piles but they were close enough to the fields that it was evident the farmers were stacking them as the plow was turning them up. I've never seen piles in the woods or on hilltops.

You might enjoy this read….

https://ohioarchaeology.org/file_download/inline/36be5e2f-825c-46ed-bfe9-5c9c70199c84

 

[Charl]

The more one looks, the more obvious it is that there are many sites in the eastern US that prove Eastern tribes/culture groups did build in stone….

The Prehistoric Makanda Stone Fort, Jackson County, Illinois.

The Prehistoric Makanda Stone Fort, Jackson County, Illinois.

drloihjournal.blogspot.com

 

[newnan man]

You might enjoy this read….

https://ohioarchaeology.org/file_download/inline/36be5e2f-825c-46ed-bfe9-5c9c70199c84

That took awhile to assimilate. Lot's of info and not particularly conclusive. Interesting, thanks.

 

[mayberry90]

I understand what you're saying about hand-stacked stone, and I'm not talking about that.

In at least one of your pictures the rocks seemed to be centered around the base of a tree. What I was saying was that here in New Jersey I see this phenomenon all the time, and it's caused by the tree pushing up over the decades (sometimes centuries) through very rocky ground. In your area this may not (or it might) contribute to some of what you're seeing - it's just a possibility to consider.
Here are a couple of pictures from my side yard. They are not the greatest examples - there are more significant ones with more/larger rocks in other locations - but I ran outside to take these pictures very quickly.
View attachment 2066307
View attachment 2066308

If you're referring to the first picture in my 2nd post with pictures: (https://www.treasurenet.com/threads...n-deep-woods-of-ky.667860/page-2#post-6996189) if you read the post I am saying that this is clearly formed by field clearing. It's located down the hill and out by a pasture. The rocks are strewn to the side and are not piled up very high at all. I was contrasting this with the rock piles in question in my main post.

 

[mayberry90]

A lot of farms in Southern Ohio had rock piles but they were close enough to the fields that it was evident the farmers were stacking them as the plow was turning them up. I've never seen piles in the woods or on hilltops.

Neither have I. I recently bought a metal detector and plan to make it back out there soon to take some more pics of the rocks and see if I can find anything at the base of the wall. (Nails, coins, etc)

 

[brianc053]

If you're referring to the first picture in my 2nd post with pictures: (https://www.treasurenet.com/threads...n-deep-woods-of-ky.667860/page-2#post-6996189) if you read the post I am saying that this is clearly formed by field clearing. It's located down the hill and out by a pasture. The rocks are strewn to the side and are not piled up very high at all. I was contrasting this with the rock piles in question in my main post.

Ok Mayberry, whatever. I was just trying to offer something else to consider. Seems like you’ve got some specific ideas here. Good luck as you investigate your situation.

 

[mayberry90]

Ok Mayberry, whatever. I was just trying to offer something else to consider. Seems like you’ve got some specific ideas here. Good luck as you investigate your situation.

I didn't mean to come across as rude or short, just explaining that that picture was from a different area and was meant to contrast obvious field clearing with the rock piles of the site.

I actually do not have any idea, but I do wish to be realistic. Over a dozen 4-6 foot high rock piles, many of which have stones it would take 3 grown men to carry at the very top, would not form naturally and of course the rock walls are also odd. I will be metal detecting soon to search for iron nails or coins along the base.

 

[mayberry90]

I finally got out and did some metal detecting! I couldn't find much but I did find this solid piece of (iron?) inside the rock wall! Any guesses what it was? It is very thick and I'm assuming quite old. They don't make metal like this these days. I think this settles the question of who built it!

I also just found the rock structure posted here. It's the biggest structure I've found at this site, I'm wondering if it was the home area. I will try detecting there next.

 

[newnan man]

Those look like some sort of foundation stones.

 

[Blackfoot58]

Those look like some sort of foundation stones.

The 2nd pic looks like a rock pile used to keep animals out of a grave, as in many a western movie. I don’t seriously think it is though.

 

[Bluegrassheart]

In the Northeast in particular, the debate as to whether many features long assumed to be settler activity, such as stone walls and stone piles or cairns, were actually older, has led to the notion of Ceremonial Stone Landscapes(CSL). This was first carried by amateur groups, like NEARA(New England Antiquities Research Association), embraced by many tribes in the East and South, and now, some archaeologists.

From a summary of possible CSL in Shutesbury, Ma:

Ceremonial Stone Landscapes (CSLs): USET, United Southern and Eastern Tribes, Inc., is a non-profit, intertribal organization of over 30 federally-recognized Tribes along the eastern coast of the United States which was formed in order for these Nations to be able to speak with one voice on issues of concern to them all. Ceremonial Stone Landscapes is the term used by USET, for Indigenous stone work sites in eastern North America. Elements often found at these sites include dry stone walls, rock piles (sometimes referred to as cairns or stone groupings), u- shaped structures, standing stones, stone chambers, unusually-shaped boulders, split boulders with stones inserted in the split, and boulders propped up off the ground with smaller rocks (balanced rocks), marked stones, petroglyphs, stone circles, effigies (e.g., turtles, serpents), mounds, platforms, enclosures, and niches.82 The variety of stone structures requires expertise to identify, and TCP of Indigenous Tribes, requires a designated representative of the Tribe to do so”.

Statement of the United South and Eastern Tribes:

https://www.usetinc.org/wp-content/uploads/Resolutions/resolutions/2007%20%20resolutons/2007%20%20resolutons/2007%20037.pdf

And some reading material. Not saying this thread involves a CSL, but the OP is correct in understanding a revision of our interpretation of many sites may be needed. Very heated debate here in the Northeast, pitting mainstream archaeologists favoring 19th century settler activity, and those favoring an older origin. One site in Pa. did allow for OSL testing, and returned dates far predating European colonists.

Essay - Ceremonial Stone Landscapes by Dr. Eric Johnson · Flora & Fauna · Our Land, Our Stories

Layer by layer, this exhibit elucidates how relationships to the land are disrupted by environmental pollution. It explains how negative portrayals of Native American communities have contributed to the targeting of their lands for contamination, while often leaving them marginalized in the...

our-land-our-stories.libraries.rutgers.edu

Native stones: Forgotten history in plain sight

Hidden highways, road signs and rest stops lie beneath our feet, if you know where to look. Throughout the northeast, sometimes paralleling existing r...

www.thephoto-news.com

Ceremonial stone landscape - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thank you so much for posting that information! I was actually searching for a way to get advice from a tribe about some rock piles when I found your comment. Very helpful!

We recently purchased land in Pulaski county KY, and while exploring for rocks for the landscaping, we found a very large pile of small to medium rocks and I got excited and climbed up it. Then I had the thought of it possibly being a burial site and apologized to any occupants all the way down. 🤦 I wish I'd gotten a photo but I had felt like I shouldn't add insult to injury. I do know that the land was industrially flattened in parts so is it possible it's just where they piled them up? We're planning to build in a few years and I am hoping to confirm if there are places that should not be disturbed before we select a building site. If you have any thoughts or advice, I would greatly appreciate any insights you wish to share. 😊

 

[robertk]

We recently purchased land in Pulaski county KY, and while exploring for rocks for the landscaping, we found a very large pile of small to medium rocks and I got excited and climbed up it. Then I had the thought of it possibly being a burial site and apologized to any occupants all the way down.

Big piles of rocks at the edges of fields (or what used to be fields) are not uncommon in land that has been farmed. Farmers throw the bigger rocks in piles at the edge of the field out of the way. But I agree, if you think the pile might be occupied, show it some respect.

 

[scruggs]

Interesting article!

 

[Red_desert]

There are Native American elders/spiritual leaders among the Pacific NW and also tribes found in the great plains' region who use and teach the meaning of a stone wheel. Some tribes never constructed the larger group wheel so rock piles were the result. I noticed a large rock at the edge of woods once, pecked to a smooth texture with a detailed carving of a feather. Light colored stone almost like a golden quartz but feather dark as if stained.

Years ago, had Sun Bear's book, don't know what happened to it. Spiritual teachers of a tribe (even today) often have a much smaller version of a stone wheel... it is called a personal medicine wheel. If you had enough Indians, a circle can be formed of people. Then they could go one step further and have seated...

1. Elders in the East
2. Children in the South
3. Women the West
4. Warriors North

Settlers cleared the land of rocks from farm fields. Years past I've sorted through rock piles on the edge of fields. You might be surprised what can be found in them. We have a pile on the lot line corner which borders a cornfield. Another close to that, found a rock used for fire starting you can see the spot where spindle turned.

 

[mayberry90]

Update:

Just been playing around using Lidar. It's really nice to see on a map. Wanted to post so people had an idea of the scale of this thing. It constitutes 5 enclosures. 1 of them is the contour of the flat ridge line, 3 more are rectangular/triangular, and the fifth is a rectangle. The 5th enclosure is the largest and the area is around 40 acres.

According to the distances on the lidar map tool, I have been able to identify around 2.5 miles of linear rock wall.

 

[FreeBirdTim]

There are hundreds of miles of stone walls here in my area of Rhode Island and they are not Native American. They were built by farmers to clear their land for farming and to also mark property lines. Most of our stones walls are three feet high or less, but some are much higher than that. The stone walls sometimes collapse over hundreds of years and many are destroyed by trees falling on them or by someone logging the area. Nothing odd about your stone walls. As someone else stated, I wouldn't give those stone walls a second glance if they were here in New England. Common as dirt.

 

[mayberry90]

There are hundreds of miles of stone walls here in my area of Rhode Island and they are not Native American. They were built by farmers to clear their land for farming and to also mark property lines. Most of our stones walls are three feet high or less, but some are much higher than that. The stone walls sometimes collapse over hundreds of years and many are destroyed by trees falling on them or by someone logging the area. Nothing odd about your stone walls. As someone else stated, I wouldn't give those stone walls a second glance if they were here in New England. Common as dirt.

I don't doubt it, but I'm still really confused by the statement that there can be no natively built stone walls, when there are many confirmed. Glenford Fort and Spruce Hill in Ohio as well as Old Stone Fort in Tennessee.

 

[Red_desert]

I tried using the AI report, see if you can make any sense of it.

AI Report-----

Native American Stone Cairns, Settler Stone Walls, and Regional Stone Wheels​

Native American stone cairns, settler stone walls, and regional stone wheels such as the Bighorn Medicine Wheel are distinct structures with different purposes and cultural significance.
Native American Stone Cairns:

• Stone cairns are found throughout North America, from the sub-arctic regions of Canada to the lower 48 states, with the highest concentrations on the eastern seaboard and westward into Canada.
• These cairns are historically significant and are associated with Native American cultures, serving various purposes such as burial markers, trail markers, and ceremonial or ritualistic structures.
• They are often smaller in scale and are not typically arranged in circular patterns like the regional stone wheels.

Settler Stone Walls:

• Settler stone walls are typically associated with European settlers and their agricultural practices, particularly in the northeastern U.S..
• These walls were used to demarcate property boundaries, contain livestock, and clear fields for farming.
• Unlike Native American stone cairns and regional stone wheels, settler stone walls are primarily utilitarian in nature and lack the ceremonial or ritualistic significance of the other structures.

Regional Stone Wheels (Bighorn Medicine Wheel):

• The Bighorn Medicine Wheel is a circular alignment of limestone boulders about 80 feet in diameter with 28 rock spokes radiating from a prominent central cairn
• It is believed to have been used by prehistoric Native Americans as an ancient astronomical observatory and calendar, with important star alignments involving the central and circumferential cairns.
• Similar stone wheels, known as medicine wheels or sacred hoops, have been built by Native Americans for centuries, with uses ranging from the ritual to the astronomical.
• These stone wheels are characterized by a central stone cairn surrounded by a stone ring, along with spokes radiating outward from the center to the surrounding ring, and are often associated with astronomical alignments.

In summary, Native American stone cairns, settler stone walls, and regional stone wheels such as the Bighorn Medicine Wheel serve different cultural, ceremonial, and practical purposes, reflecting the diverse traditions and practices of the peoples who constructed them.

Native American Carved Stone Turtle Seats and Trail Markers vs. Spanish Mine Monuments and Treasure Markers​

Native Americans and Spanish explorers both used markers and symbols to denote important locations, but there are distinct differences between the carved stone turtle seats and trail markers used by Native Americans and the Spanish mine monuments and treasure markers.
Native American Carved Stone Turtle Seats and Trail Markers:

• Native Americans used marker trees and sometimes carved upon them their individual or clan insignia to mark trails. They also used stone piles, planting of poles, and other materials to mark trails and important locations.
• Marker trees were used to show the direction of travel and were often bent and fastened to indicate the right way. These markers were used for navigation and communication among different tribes.
• The markers used by Native Americans were primarily for navigation and communication, and they did not specifically indicate the location of treasures or mines.

Spanish Mine Monuments and Treasure Markers:

• Spanish explorers and miners left behind stone sculptures and carvings that marked trails and hidden treasures. These markers were created to lead to treasures and mines, and were required to be built and recorded as natural "maps" to treasure found in the New World.
• The Spanish markers and monuments were specifically designed to lead to treasures and mines, and were ordered by the King of Spain to mark treasure trails.
• The markers left by the Spanish were intended to guide others to the location of hidden treasures and mines, and were part of the Spanish efforts to gain wealth in the New World.

In summary, while both Native Americans and Spanish explorers used markers and symbols to denote important locations, the purposes and intentions behind the markers were different. Native American markers were primarily for navigation and communication, while Spanish markers were specifically designed to lead to treasures and mines.

Native American Carved Stone Animal Effigies for Religious or Ceremonial Purposes
Native American carved stone animal effigies, also known as fetishes, were commonly used for religious and ceremonial purposes. These carvings were made from various stones, including soft stones like white marble, amber, or animal antler, and depicted animals that held spiritual significance for the Native American tribes.

Religious and Ceremonial Significance:

• Native American Indian fetishes, commonly carved from stone or antler, took the shapes of animals, with the form being suggested by the material and the magic power within it, rather than being predetermined by the carver.
• These stone fetishes commonly took the shape of predators, animals admired for their strength of spirit and dominance, believed to possess the strongest fetish powers 1.
• The Zuni people, in particular, created small carvings known as fetishes, made primarily from stone, shell, fossils, and other materials, which served ceremonial purposes and depicted animals and icons integral to their culture.
• The Zuni fetishes were believed to hold the skills and qualities of the animal, bringing some of the animal's power to their keeper, and were often used in ceremonies as a powerful connection to nature and the spirit world.

Conclusion: Carved stone animal effigies held significant religious and ceremonial importance for Native American tribes, with the form and material of the fetishes being closely tied to spiritual beliefs and practices.

Yes, Native Americans used carved stone turtle effigies for various purposes, including religious and ceremonial significance. In the creation myths of some East Coast tribes, such as the Iroquois and Lenape, the Great Spirit created their homeland by placing earth on the back of a giant turtle, leading to the contemporary reference to North America as "Turtle Island". Turtles are also associated with long life, protection, and fertility in the folklore of Plains Indians, and in some tribes, a newborn girl's umbilical cord was sewn into a figure in the shape of a turtle to ensure her health and safety. Additionally, turtles are considered a symbol of Mother Earth in many Native American cultures and are associated with healing, wisdom, spirituality, health, safety, longevity, protection, and fertility.
Carved stone turtle effigies held deep spiritual significance and were used in ceremonial rituals, reflecting the rich cultural heritage of various Native American tribes. These effigies were crafted from stone, wood, or clay and were often used in storytelling and ceremonial purposes, emphasizing their importance in preserving and celebrating Native American culture.