Spanish Naval buckle or ?

[firemedic]

Last week while hunting beside a small lake where a small "country club" building once stood, I found this piece . I ran across this post (http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...e-navy-buckle-update-john-powell-s-reply.html) while doing a google image search. It seems odd that this would be a Spanish naval belt buckle due to the location of my find. The town was founded in 1888 and the lake and club house were built in the 1890s. I thought maybe it was part of a belt for swimwear such as was worn around the 1900s. I'm interested to know if any further research has been done.

The piece is solid brass, there are no markings of any kind on the front or back. I will try to add more detailed pictures later today.

I should add that this was in Northcentral Missouri and the item was dug about 50 feet from the waters edge on the site of an old clubhouse built by the railroad for employees next to a manmade lake that was a water source for steam engines. The buckle was about 8" deep and was found with a Garrett ACE 350. I posted to the original thread but it seems inactive. Any help would be appreciated.

 

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[kuger]

Lots of info on that late 19th Century piece on here.I cant seem to find any of it!From what I know though,it is not afiliated with the Spanish,and yours is the third I know of coming from a "beach" that was amongst late 19 th Century items

 

[fireford10]

Although i dont know about it being Spanish or not, i wouldnt rule out the fact that its not just based on when the town was founded. In my opinion becasue there is a railroad, and you mentioned a man made lake, that there were probably plenty of Spanish workers around there during that time, or travelers. It looks like an exact match to the link that you posted from the other forum. cool find either way. It would be neat if you could find the other piece!

 

[kuger]

very well could be Spanish......................Late 19th Century Spanish.As I said,this was discussed/researched in great detail in the past...the link?..........doesnt add up.thats all I will say about that

 

[kuger]

Found it!This is the best info there is.A great deal of research went into a couple of the replies(not mine necessarily)
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...e-navy-buckle-update-john-powell-s-reply.html

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

I think it's worth mentioning that the ruler in the photo posted by Firemedic shows the belt-loop on the buckle he found could only accomodate a 1-&-1/8th"-wide belt. If you'll pardon the pun, that narrows down the possibilities for his buckle's correct ID.

 

[kuger]

...the wreath is of a life preserver....I ask again,when was the life preserver invented?

It seems the type is called a Kisbee Ring,which gained popularity in the middle of the 19th Century....long ways from Colonial Spanish?

 

[fireford10]

the link was above the photos he posted on top of this forum. I read all 3 pages and seems to me that he has the exact buckle. Well, 1/2 of the exact buckle. lol. your right though, seems to of had a lot of minds working on that one!

Found it!This is the best info there is.A great deal of research went into a couple of the replies(not mine necessarily)
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...e-navy-buckle-update-john-powell-s-reply.html

 

[kuger]

the link was above the photos he posted on top of this forum. I read all 3 pages and seems to me that he has the exact buckle. Well, 1/2 of the exact buckle. lol. your right though, seems to of had a lot of minds working on that one!

well dont I feel dumb!I thought the link was to Powells "Spanish Ship Find",and whizzed right by it!My bad

 

[fireford10]

lol....it happens to the best of us.

well dont I feel dumb!I thought the link was to Powells "Spanish Ship Find",and whizzed right by it!My bad

 

[gsxraddict]

i really hope you find the other half

 

[firemedic]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I plan to hunt the area pretty hard to hopefully find the other piece. I appreciate the work you put into the research from the other thread on this Kuger. I am researching the life preserver and I agree that it would date it as mid to late 19th century. The railroad didn't come through this area until 1887. I want to put this in a local museum so that is why I am trying to find out more about it. It seems that it is indeed rare and therefore difficult to research.

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[hogge]

Here's a complete example my uncle found 2 years ago. Spanish dirk or dagger buckle. Made for officers dress uniform. Nice Find! Hogge Circa 1790-1820

 

[kuger]

Here's a complete example my uncle found 2 years ago. Spanish dirk or dagger buckle. Made for officers dress uniform. Nice Find! Hogge Circa 1790-1820

Hogge.....I urge you to read the research,posted above,and perhaps give us your source of that iformation.As to date of several I personally know of,none have any affiliation with anything Spanish,or officer

 

[firemedic]

So I ran across this while searching Google Images. http://www.peytonclothing.com/Buckl...L-ANCHOR-LIFE-PRESERVER-RING-BELT-BUCKLE.html

What do you guys think? Reproduction of our old finds or is our buckle not as old as we thought?

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[fireford10]

LMAO. Really makes you wonder now. Who, what , where, when HOW Sometimes when you search long enough you just end up right where you started...boggled and confused. I think your good by taking this approach. Lets just say (after the hard work of others on the complete buckle set posted in a different forum) its not spanish, and its not pre CW, and its not from the site you just posted the link to.......Now, everything inbetween sounds like its anybodys guess. And since theres no proof to be had yet, then its going to be just that...a guess. Look at the bright side, at least people areinterested in this piece and involved in helping you (not so much me, iim just here for the conversation, lol) Good luck, maybe someone will finally have an answer.

So I ran across this while searching Google Images. SILVERTONE METAL ANCHOR LIFE PRESERVER RING BELT BUCKLE|Buckle-Down|Best Men's Belt Buckles.

What do you guys think? Reproduction of our old finds or is our buckle not as old as we thought?

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[hogge]

Hogge.....I urge you to read the research,posted above,and perhaps give us your source of that iformation.As to date of several I personally know of,none have any affiliation with anything Spanish,or officer

You may want to take this issue up with John Powell, as he seems to be the expert. The complete example we found was about 12" down, at a home dating back to 1760. The ones you know of, could be repros of originals. Carefully examine if the tongues are cast or tack welded. 80%, (or more), of all CS buckles circulating are fakes or repros. As regards to the 2 new silvery buckles posted by "Firemedic"..... not even close. Also.....Who says the wreath is supposed to be a "Life Preserver"?? Just because it looks like one doesn't mean that's what it was supposed to be. So your "assumption" on dating it by that, could be totally wrong. OR......Maybe 50 years later......The life preserver could have been designed after the buckle design!!!!! How do you know? I'm getting my info from John Powell and his site. Send him an E-Mail....or talk to him directly....as I did.

 

[beau-bc]

Nice find,found this one a few years back.Thought it was wreath part of buckle. Needs a better cleaning.

 

[kuger]

You may want to take this issue up with John Powell, as he seems to be the expert. The complete example we found was about 12" down, at a home dating back to 1760. The ones you know of, could be repros of originals. Carefully examine if the tongues are cast or tack welded. 80%, (or more), of all CS buckles circulating are fakes or repros. As regards to the 2 new silvery buckles posted by "Firemedic"..... not even close. Also.....Who says the wreath is supposed to be a "Life Preserver"?? Just because it looks like one doesn't mean that's what it was supposed to be. So your "assumption" on dating it by that, could be totally wrong. OR......Maybe 50 years later......The life preserver could have been designed after the buckle design!!!!! How do you know? I'm getting my info from John Powell and his site. Send him an E-Mail....or talk to him directly....as I did.

I dis agree with Powell,and here is why.......................
I happen to know a thing or two about tongue and wreath buckles,and will tell you there are not that many people reproducing originals and if they are doing something with any kind of history like a Spanish Navy Officers buckle they sure as heck would say that!!!Also,most of the ones I know of have been dug in 19 th century sites....there was nobody doing reproductions in the 1800's!Why would they?The biggest red flag is the fact that the two piece buckle didnt really seem to gain popularity until the 1830's.There is no known two piece buckle from the 1700's and the construction of even Powells is not typical of that era.

So your telling me its just irony the wreath resembles a life preserver?Its ironic that both the life preserver and anchor have a marine "motif"?Or are you saying the life preserver was made to resemble this wreath

One more point,why have all of these found(including the one just posted by Beu,who is in Canada....not much 1700's Spanish activity going on?)not found in a Spanish site or the majority even near a coast?Provenance is what matters,and sure as heck the age of something shall not be judged by the depth at which it was found!!!

 

[hogge]

So, "YOUR THEORY", is based on speculation. Although I agree with a small portion of your assumptions, I have to stay with Powell's. OBVIOUSLY you've never heard of this book- "The Spanish Army in North America 1700-1793" by Rene Chartrand. This book gives detailed accounts of how Spanish Army and Naval units fought not only independently, but side by side, with American units, AGAINST the British, during The Rev. War! There was actually quite a bit of Spanish activity in the Americas, and Canada, up until 1800. Why do you think there is so much Spanish silver found here? Because it was legal tender until 1850. And just because 2 piece buckles weren't popular in early America, doesn't mean the Spanish didn't have them LONG before we did! AND YOU are saying it cannot be Naval or Spanish because it wasn't found near the coast! "ANYTHING CAN BE FOUND ANYWHERE"----Metal detecting 101. Don't you think some of these Spaniards settled here after the war? Same as the French, British, Irish, and other nationalities did? You may want to do a little more research on this subject as I just shot your "Theory" full of holes! And you keep saying "Life Preserver". All I see is 4 bands around a circle.