Strange Head Stamp. What is it?

[winslow]

I found this shell casing in an area that had items dating from the 1850's forward. Thought nothing of it until I tried to decipher the headstamp when I got it home. Some kind of alien code??

Included regular .45 casing to contrast.

 

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[TheElementOfSand]

Maybe im just lost, but no primer on that "casing" maybe not a shell casing at all? maybe a small cap to an old lipstick tube?

 

[BosnMate]

Looks to me like a rim fire that has been fired. The head stamp is weird though.

 

[TheElementOfSand]

I do know it was fairly common that people would carve stuff into their bullets, not sure about the casings though, its a neat one though. I hope we get an answer on this one

 

[NOLA_Ken]

I've never seen a shell with a base like that, it's not a stamp, it just looks like defects in the metal.... Can you get us a diameter in 100ths of an inch? And a length?

 

[kermit]

Maybe some type of metal match container? They put the texture on the cap so you know which side to pull off when it's dark?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Compared to the .45 ACP, it looks like about a .50 cal. There were a few different .50 cal rimfires that were made around the time of the Civil War, including the celebrated Spencer rifle.

Hard to say what's going on with that surface finish - but I'd say that was done after the cartridge was fired, unless the breech face of the rifle had some sort of pattern that was impressed into the thin brass of the cartridge. I'd say that was unlikely, given the low pressures that these cartridges operated at.

 

[TheElementOfSand]

Maybe this explains we are all right lmao

Civil War Rimfire Shell Match Holder Safe Dug VA RARE | eBay

 

[azdave]

It's a large bore RF casing that was "played" with. It appears to be quite a common thing to do back in that era, when boredom set in around camp. Rimfire calibers up into the .50 caliber size were common in the 1860's...and many of those calibers were loaded for along time after they became considered obsolete because of the quantity of guns out there in working order. 44 Rimfire (think Henry rifle) was loaded all the way into the 1920's by the big manufacturer's...just a point made about dating locations where rimfires are found. That particular casing is too short to be a Spencer, I believe, but definately appears 50 cal. I will try and remember to dig out dimensions of the 2 different Spencer chamberings (both 50 cal, but different length casings if I recall correctly), and some of the other 50 calibers.

I observe here in AZ that I can rely on the casings to pretty accurately date campsites, based on the idea that this region was considered very hostile up into the early 1900's, so people armed themselves with the "latest and greatest." So if i find a bunch of large bore rimfires, I'm confident it dates to 1860's to early 1870's...when centerfire primers became more widespread. Even after "rimfire" died out in bigger calibers, "inside" priming and Benet priming confuses the issue on dates.
I have posted pics before of some unusual casings that were played with...smaller caliber casings pushed/pounded inside larger ones, and have found MANY 1860's era casings here in AZ that are cut into pieces, have holes drilled through, made into little "ornaments", even initials scratched on them.

 

[SkaBa]

If a match safe, maybe the head was scuffed up to strike a match on.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Looks roughly like a Spencer 56/56 rimfire case. But I'm at a loss for the markings.

Maybe someone reworked a fired case for a cane-tip or match case?

 

[winslow]

I've never seen a shell with a base like that, it's not a stamp, it just looks like defects in the metal.... Can you get us a diameter in 100ths of an inch? And a length?

Length is approx 7/8 of an inch. Rim diameter approx .65 of an inch. Base diameter is about .55 of an inch.

Weird thing about the markings is that they are not scratched in but seem to be raised.

 

[BosnMate]

Maybe this explains we are all right lmao

Civil War Rimfire Shell Match Holder Safe Dug VA RARE | eBay

Can't be a civil war match safe, the longer cartridge is probably 45/70, and that wasn't invented until well after the war. In fact I don't think there were any civil war cartridges with a case
long enough to be a match safe.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

If the internal diameter at the throat is .55, I think it's not a cartridge at all, unless there is a .55 cal rimfire I've never heard of.... I'm leaning more toward lipstick tube top, which would explain the strange pattern on it.

 

[azdave]

The indentation on the rim from the firing pin is obvious....and consistent with identical casings I have...time to dig some things out and take pics/measurements for comparison.

 

[azdave]

i will explain these pics in another post

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Well, I looked and your measurements are pretty much right on for a 56-60 Spencer cartridge, I have no idea what's up with that base though, it just looks like some kind of defect in the metal.... You might send measurements and a pic to this site Headstamp Codes - International Ammunition Association and see if they know anything about it

 

[azdave]

The first pic is of 2 CONFIRMED 56-50 Spencer's, with J.G. (Joseph Goldmark) headstamps....one was a "drop"(unfired), the other (obviously) fired.These were only made from 1864-66'
2nd pic is the first two Spencers with two unidentified casings....the last one I believe is identical to yours.
3rd pic shows all 4 case heads...BOTh of the unidentified ones have a recessed H...indicating Winchester. You can't see the last one in the pic, but its there.
next 3 pics show overall CASE length of all three different cartridges...the last pic shows the rim diameter, which was consistent with all three cartridges.
What I screwed up was not taking a pic of the case RIM diameter...the Spencer runs .53 unfired, .54 FIRED (completely normal for brass to expand when fired), and the casing that I believe is identical to what you have is .56....the other one had a deformed case mouth, so didn't bother.

I never researched enough to positively ID those two oddballs, and I have a few others (identical) somewhere....so now I guess I have a new obsession.....as well, I have several other largebore rimfires....so it goes to show that at the time of the first metallic cartridges, and with the help of the Civil War, inventors were in a race to come up with "bigger and better."

The Spencer and Henry were the common rimfire REPEATERS....but I would bet there were MANY obscure calibers in single shot rifles at that time.

 

[pistol-pete]

Some of you right on, others didn't look good. It WAS FIRED in a Spencer gun indicated by the firing pin mark.

 

[azdave]

Could it have been FIRED in a Spencer Carbine?? Possibly...just like you can fire the shorter 38 special in the 357 mag, you could possibly fire this shorter cartridge in the longer chambered Spencer, if dimensionally similar enough. Ballard and Joslyn Carbines also were chambered in Spencer chamberings...and I bet other similar ones.

BUT...I do NOT believe it's a Spencer Cartridge......and if anyone is going by WIKIPEDIA dimensions for the 56-56....I consider them wrong, because the shown .875 case length is too short, this is per a long time collector that will forget more about this stuff than I will ever know, and my own research with this confusing cluster of similar large bore RF's.

This chart reflects ONE specific Spencer chambering....but they are all pretty similar in OAL and case length...because the biggest difference between them involved bullet diameter and case taper.

ETA: Ran across a more diverse list I had of other Spencer dimensions..it show for case length: 56-46: 1.075" 56-52: 1.02" 56-56: .95"

Now to spend some time with my examples that I believe are identical to Winslows.

and if anyone has any data/dimensions concerning these big rimfires....please post it. I would rather be told I'm wrong and find out what they really are than go along labeling my finds incorrectly, or sharing wrong info......I get excited about finding these things like some guys get excited finding coins!