Templar fortified villages

Crow

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Gidday All

Here is one of the most awesome places one can visit that is still lived in today. The village La Couvertoirade .There are people still living in building whose origins was Templar.

There are five major Knights Templar sites in Aveyron France, fortified villages that were positioned strategically in the Causse du Larzac to enable production of food supplies, shipped out through the nearby port of Montpellier as well as providing an income for the Templars and later the Knights Hospitallers. The village La Couvertoirade was just one of them.

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Visiting La Couvertoirade is like traveling back in time. Like wandering down lost road in the French countryside through farms and forests then bam over rise it hits you like if your fallen back into the 13th century.

The village La Couvertoirade site was particularly important for farming – horses, sheep (for wool, milk and meat) and grain and explained that the Knights Templar were great landlords whose wealth came at least partly from their ability to protect and support their tenant farmers. A religious military order, their original role was to protect pilgrims on the road to the Holy Land, then later to protect the land itself.

You can wander the streets amigos and history screams at you where ever you. Look.

From the air you can see the extent of the Templar Medieval village.

Couvertoirade01.jpg


Do ya want to see inside the village amigos. Its awesome and the village has an awesome story of Templar treasure discovered at the turn of the last century.

Crow
 

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Crow

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Gidday amigos

Here is a video tour inside the fortified village of La Couvertoirade below.



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In 1901 two brothers lived in one of the old tenements. Who was cobblers shoe makers living in very poor conditions was having their basement renovated for extra space. The workmen found in one of the walls a rectangular box, which they handed over to one of the shoemakers. The box contained some 500 coins, with the inscription " Carolus Rex Francorum."

In the twelfth century there was a building of the Templars on the site where the treasure is said to have been

found, and it is suggested that the Templars might have hidden some of their great wealth in the foundations of the building.




Since the discovery they have left the village to a bigger town and become very prosperous and have taken heavily-rented houses. The story came out in 1908 because of jealousy of one of those who knew about the brothers good fortune. Perhaps the workman who actually found it? The brothers had kept quiet about the discovery and sold off the silver coins and funded their move to the city of Limoges.

Was it hoard left by Templars? or Just coins hoarded by some one who had collected the coins over time? The Order of Knights of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem took over the village when the Templars was arrested and expelled. The village has had a long history after the Templars.

Here is the house of the alleged 1901 discovery below.

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Today 119 years later the cellars has been converted into a restaurant to cater from the tourist industry.

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Crow

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Today anyone can stroll through the village which almost a perfect example of 13th century village no not a Disney theme park but the real deal. There are artisans and restaurant and tavern. The village has been in constant use since the 12th century walking the streets you are viewing at least 800 years of history. And walking in the footsteps of Templars that used this place as a stop over on their way to the holy land.

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The Templars may be disbanded but in some respects some of their legacy lives on.

This village was one of main Templar Commanderie out side of Paris older Templars unfit for military service in the Holy land would retire and engage in secondary duties in support of the Templars in the Holy land.

The money found in the cellar we will never know for sure if its was just the income generated of the Templar village before the expulsion or part of the treasure brought back from the holy land? One thing for sure the treasure train of knights stopped here on their way back from Cyprus to Paris.

For me the biggest mystery is why most English Speaking people interested in Templars have never heard of this place?


Crow
 

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T.C.

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Awesome video Crow! Thanks for posting. You would have made a helluva history teacher!:thumbsup:
 

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Gidday TC thanks for the thumbs up.

I try to get the facts as much as possible rather than get carried away with fantasy. Although it easy to get carried away with the fascination of the Templars.

In searching for real history of the Templars we have to separate the fact from the fiction. And not over hypothesize. Separating the medieval Templars from the modern Templar organizations of today. The the modern versions of the order have no real direct link to Templars of old.

While I have no doubt the organizations that call themselves Templars today have christian ideals in helping disadvantage people. They are one of many such groups like Freemasons claiming such distant affiliations with Templars of old?.

The story of the persecution and sudden dissolution of the secretive yet powerful medieval Templars has drawn many other groups to use alleged Templar connections with them as a way of enhancing their own image and mystery. The truth is there is no clear historical connection between the Knights Templar and any other modern organization, the earliest of which emerged publicly in the 18th century.

But for me the Templars of interest are of the 12th 13th centuries in Europe and Palestine.

Such as the village La Couvertoirade posted above.

There are at least 4 other Templar fortress villages that I know of that still exist in its historical form. All these properties was generating money from farming and hand crafts supplying the Templars in the Holy land when they belonged to Templars. After dissolution of the Templars they was given over to the Hospitalliers.

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There is a possibility such places the Templar in charge had Templar money hidden that was never recovered because of torture and execution of the Head Templar. Thus when such villages was handed over to Hospitalliers the location of such treasure caches remain a secret that died with the former head Templar Burned at the stake.

La Cavalerie is an ancient village on the high plateau of Causse de Larzac, founded as Commanderie of the Templiers. The village includes the intact, walled Templiers fortress, where you can still walk the ramparts. With at least one good hotel, cafés and a few shops, this is a pretty tourist destination, but still remains calm and not very crowded.

Here is pictures of La Cavalerie below.

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You can see the walls are virtually intact in the picture above.

cavalerie0006b.jpg

The gatehouse is in excellent condition for 800 odd years.

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In side the fortified town is like La Couvertoirade walking back in history.

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The buildings date back from the Templars.

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The Templar church still exists.

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Inside you can see the Medieval pedigree.

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It those walks could talk what would they tell us.

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Yet fascinating for us just everyday life for those who actually live there.

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Anyone really interested in Templars need to go and visit these places amigo.

It will help give you a better understanding of 13th century Templar life in France and its support organization of its efforts in Palestine.

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Here is an illustration on how La Cavalerie looked like. A more modern village grew around it.

cavalerie0075b.jpg

A Templar Commanderie desgined to generate income as well as supplies for the Templar cause. Its was also a pilgrim rest stop and bank on the was way to the holy land.

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ASte-Eulalie-de-Cernon is an ancient Templiers and Hospitalers Knights fortress and commanderie village, 26 km south of Millau. The walled village is tiny and easy to explore, with a 12th-century church on the main square in the very center.

Its ironic these places are virtually unknown to English speakers.

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As you can see some more modern development has built around it.

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A Templar village generating income for Templars.

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The Templar church below. Pilgrims would vist

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The tower below.

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The hospital converted over time into tenements.
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At the heart of the historic settlement is the Commandery of Saint Eulalia, a hospital (in the medieval sense of the word) established by the Knights Templar. After that Order was disbanded by Philip the fair in 1307-08, royal forces were sent to close the hospital down, and from that event a detailed account of the buildings, their contents, both in the chapel and in the non-spiritual parts of the complex, and the life and customs of the occupants, has survived.




The Commandery came under the control of the knights Hospitaliers during the hundred year war and survived until its final destruction as a result of the French Revolution towards the end of the eighteenth century.

So forget big mythical Templar fortunes Its places like these that may yield caches of Templar coins?

Crow
 

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Thanks for all these great posts Crow! I really enjoy reading them and seeing your pictures.
After all this craziness ends, I will be going to see these places.
In the meantime, I am going to tell my wife that we have a new Travel Consultant and his name is Crow!:laughing7::laughing7:
 

BillA

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I think Americans got POed with De Gaulle and fewer learn French or visit.
I would liken France to Greece in terms of comfortable treasure hunting,
only those dealing with tourists are friendly - and even then....

perhaps better when the Brit's ruled?
(bad joke, I know)
 

BillA

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indeed Ac, as a Canadian you will be well treated
almost a brother if you speak French

I speak Italian so when I was in France not a word of English, worked very well
 

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Thank you CROW I've been reading your post in regards to Templars and must say you have a LOT of realistic knowledge on this subject, very believable. You've done your homework on this topic obviously and its refreshing.
 

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Crow

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Its my pleasure all.

Researching these village is being a lot like a tourist amigos. As for the French themselves. I found in my travels all over the globe regardless of race, nationality, sex, social status you will find saints and sinners and everything in between. They have all the biases and hang ups as we do. No different amigos.

You can go to the United States come across a--holes but does that mean the rest of country is the same? No because I have come across wonderful people. So in effect....As the analogy goes

You can have football stadium where 100000 people watched foot ball. 1000 people rioted. 99% did the right thing but who is remembered? It is the 1000 who rioted. But a visitors impression will always be tarred with the negative impression of the 1%

And it is so visiting countries one negative experience can a impact of your whole experience there.

Such is life amigos.

Getting back to these Templar villages is step back into time. Some are more tourist some have hardly any visitors at at all. You will not swamped with hoards of tourists there you virtually have the placed to yourself rather laid back not over hyped tourist traps of Paris and major attractions that attract all the hustlers.

Crow
 

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Crow

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Saint-Jean d'Alcas is located below the vast expanses of the Causee Du Larzac, five kilometers from Roquefort sur Soulzon. .

saint-jean-et-saint-paul-1304-7_w500.jpg

The village contains a fort of the fifteenth century, built by the Cistercian Abbey of Nonenque to face the Hundred Years War.
Saint-Paul des Fonts houses a botanical area dedicated to Hippolyte Coste, "the priest of flowers".

saint-jean-et-saint-paul-1304-16_w500.jpg


From prehistoric times, men occupied these lands. The periods of prosperity have succeeded one another through the ages, leaving as a legacy, many archaeological remains. The original village was a Templar and later Hospitalers Knights commanderie. But time and history by passed both.

st-jean-alcas0031b.jpg

While what you see today is 15th century the building was built on the earlier foundations of the Templar commanderie

st-jean-alcas0008b.jpg

The standard keep influenced by the 100 years war. A hundred years of fighting? Hard to get your head around that? But those was the times.

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To day you can see the gatehouse repurposed into private homes Above. As you can below.see a small village shop supplies the residences of this tiny village.

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But the walls amigo show its past military origins.

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One thing as you will see with theses historic villages they all had their origins in the Templar Order. They all had a supportive role to play in assisting pilgrims to provide early banking services to them. Then generated income for Templars and provided food equipment and armed to Templars that was fighting in Palestine. And retirement for those knights that survived the rigors of battle in the Holy land.

These villages and many others was the engine that drove the Templars order.

Crow
 

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Crow

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One thing amigo these Templar commanderie was not all fortified at the time of the templars. Some were is essence just a working farm providing food and clothing for the Templars.

And another thing to remember such sites was reporposed after the templars had long gone and many of the buildings are not of templar orgin. But there are a few lingering traces of their presence.

The impressive 30m high Tour Hospitalière located on the famous Causse du Larzac is the largest tower-attic built in Aveyron to shelter the population of the Viala du Pas de Jaux. It is an exceptional architectural treasure.


viala-du-pas-de-jaux0009b.jpg


Before the construction of this tower in 1430, the inhabitants of the Viala du Pas de Jaux, in case of danger, had to go with their belongings, their families and their herds to Sainte-Eulalie-de-Cernon about ten kilometers away.

viala-du-pas-de-jaux0004b.jpg


This was not a permanent solution. The inhabitants asked the Grand Prior of Saint Gilles, Bertrand d'Arpajon, for permission to build this imposing tower, originally separate from the existing house. Today, thanks to the association "La Tour du Viala du Pas de Jaux", major restoration work has been undertaken to save this monument.


At the top of the tower, you can enjoy a panoramic view and you can see the attacker from afar and prepare the defense of the tower and the protection of the inhabitants.

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During the visit of this singular and so well restored site, on each floor, you will be able to discover elements of this built heritage: fireplaces, small windows, large vault in arch of cloister, covered way with machicolation, roof of lauze.



At the foot of this tower, you can see to the east the knights templar ' dwelling and its annexes, to the south the threshing floor, to the west discover the village with its low stone walls protecting the gardens from the wind, the 19th century church and old typical Caussenardes farms with their slate roofs.

viala-du-pas-de-jaux0016b.jpg


For security reasons, the tower was separated from the house and access was through a door on the second floor by means of a drawbridge.

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A gallery surrounded the walls of the tower (faux-braie) for a better defense. In front of the southern façade of the Hospitaller's dwelling, a two-storey building was erected in the 15th century. Its first floor was used as a stable, at the back is a vast cistern which collected rainwater from the roofs, the other two floors were used to store fodder and straw.


At the bottom of the latrines on the second floor, a workshop of coin counterfeiters was found.

This is where copies of "Hardi", the currency in use from 1461 to 1483 during the reign of Louis XI, were minted.
Regalian law the right to mint money was thus given by the King and any transgression was severely punished, the counterfeiters being scalded alive in a large cauldron.


The tympanum of Conques in Aveyron, represents the torture of a counterfeiter to whom molten metal is poured into the throat.


That did not prevent the counterfeiters from being very numerous...

Yet here we are old Templar farm site evolved in hospitalier to village and fortified tower and eventually a place where counterfiting of coins took place. ( I wonder if there are counterfeit 14th century coins still hidden in caches around the village. Although not Templar an historical treasure all the same)

Some time some Templar sites are buried under later history and events.

Crow
 

T.C.

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Its my pleasure all.

Researching these village is being a lot like a tourist amigos. As for the French themselves. I found in my travels all over the globe regardless of race, nationality, sex, social status you will find saints and sinners and everything in between. They have all the biases and hang ups as we do. No different amigos.

You can go to the United States come across a--holes but does that mean the rest of country is the same? No because I have come across wonderful people. So in effect....As the analogy goes

You can have football stadium where 100000 people watched foot ball. 1000 people rioted. 99% did the right thing but who is remembered? It is the 1000 who rioted. But a visitors impression will always be tarred with the negative impression of the 1%

And it is so visiting countries one negative experience can a impact of your whole experience there.

Such is life amigos.

Getting back to these Templar villages is step back into time. Some are more tourist some have hardly any visitors at at all. You will not swamped with hoards of tourists there you virtually have the placed to yourself rather laid back not over hyped tourist traps of Paris and major attractions that attract all the hustlers.

Crow

My Dad was shot down over France during WWII. He parachuted out over the town of Bordeaux. The people there put up a monument to the two flyers that were killed. Every year they have a service at the monument. We are in touch with the Grandson of the farmers land where my Dad landed. The French people there are so thankful and are more patriotic than some Americans. We still keep in touch with Yves Carnot and his wife Anne. Great people!
 

T.C.

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On another note Crow, why were the Templars persecuted and burned at the stake??
 

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Crow

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Gidday TC there is no simple answer to this as it involved the complex geopolitical situation happening at the time

One book you will find interesting"Historical Notes On The Trial Against The Templars" by Barbara Frale. Dr. Barbara Frale is an historian on staff at the Vatican Secret Archives and a specialist on the Templars, the crusades, and the papacy. She earned her Ph.D. at the University of Venice. She lives in Viterbo, Italy


She tells of the three main characters in this story. First you have Philip, IV, king of France. Philip has always been portrayed as a villain in this story, and Dr. Frale does nothing to attempt to change this. In fact, from her perspective, he is the number one bad guy.


Next, you have Pope Clement, V. I have seen him portrayed as an evil despot, a weak and helpless puppet, a willing co-conspirator, and a fool, but Dr. Frale gives us a new opinion to consider; one I have not seen before.


Finally, we have not so much the man, Jacques DeMolay but the Order of the Temple as a whole as our third main character. In the end, it seems to me that Dr. Frale portrays them almost as you would an innocent bystander.

Next, we will begin to take a really close look at King Phillip, where he came from, who he was, what motivated him, the events which influenced him, and what appears to have been his objectives. Motives are difficult to determine. A wise man once said that we tend to judge others by their actions and ourselves by our motives. Try to keep an open mind as we attempt to get into the minds of these players.

Philip IV (the Fair) of France. There is one thing about this fellow; no matter whose account you read, he was a bad guy. He was apparently a handsome devil to have been called "the Fair", but it appears that his beauty was only skin deep. His family had been involved in the crusades from the very beginning as far back as Louis VII' s participation in the second crusade.


Louis VII had managed to obtain the support of Bernard of Clairvaux for this crusade, the same St. Bernard who was instrumental in the legitimization of the early Templars. Louis was accompanied on this crusade by the Master of the Temple, the ranking Templar officer in France. During this crusade, Louis ran out of money, and the Templars financed the remainder of the Crusade for him. In the process they became, for all practical purposes, the treasury of France. They were so good at this that they increased the revenues of the real estate holdings of French King Philip II by an estimated 120 percent. In the long run, this turned out to be a bad move.


Louis VII's great grandson, Louis IX, was Philip IV's grandfather and apparently was idolized by Philip the Fair. Louis IX was a participant and leader of the seventh and eighth crusades and apparently a very devout Christian and servant of the Church. He was captured on at least one occasion and was ransomed by the Templars although somewhat reluctantly and under duress. It appears that Philip IV wanted to follow in his grandfather's footsteps and sort of pick up where he left off. He aspired to the leadership of all Europe and to the title of "Defender of the One True Faith."


In reality, he lacked the finances and power to pull this off. By then, the Templars owned an estimated 9,000 manors, all profitable farming operations, and most of them in France. Because of the Templar relationship with the Church, none of these were taxable by the King.


Philip had an advisor and co-conspirator in the person of Guillame de Nogaret, the Keeper of the Seals who appears to have been as fully ambitious and fanatically religious as Philip. In 1294, Philip began his conquest by attacking and trying to seize the assets of the fiefdom of Gascony belonging to King Edward I of England. This war cost both sides so much that they both decided to tax the clergy. This taxation, of course, created a problem between King Philip and the Church in the person of Pope Boniface VIII who threatened to excommunicate him. Since an excommunicated King could hardly claim the title of "Defender of the One True Faith", this constituted a major roadblock to Philip's plans.


Philip retaliated by taking the position that his ancestors were more Christian than the Papal line having been ordained directly by God and by taking the position that a King was completely sovereign in his own territory and not subject to any other authority. He then sent a delegation of French clergy to the Pope that assured the Pontif that the King would not interfere with the authority of the Church and convinced him to allow taxation of the clergy during times of national emergency.

They also managed to convince the Pope to canonize Louis IX, thus making him truly Philip's "sainted" grandfather. This did not resolve the issue because in 1301, Bishop Bernard Saisset spoke out against Philip's abuses of the clergy and was sentenced to death for treason by the King. Philip subsequently proposed that the Pope be deposed by the Church.


Pope Boniface then drew up the necessary paperwork to excommunicate the King, but before the Pope published the document, the King sent soldiers who assaulted him and attempted to kidnap him and take him back to Paris for trial.

The kidnapping was thwarted by the locals, and the Pope was rescued but died in Rome shortly thereafter. Unfortunately for Philip, the excommunication documents were lost (presumably not destroyed) in the fray, and he had to live with the fact that they might be found and enforced at any time.


Pope Clement V was elected as a compromise candidate between the French Crown who wanted a separate French Church under the control of the King and the Roman Church, but could not take office until the leader of the Roman contingent died because he refused to certify Cement's election. Immediately, Philip bullied the Pope into being crowned in Lyon rather than in Toulouse, the site chosen by the Pope. He was then pressured into remaining in France rather than presiding from Rome.


At the coronation, the King told Clement of rumors of heresy about the Templars and asked him to investigate. He also began his own "investigation" and constantly fed condemning "evidence" to the Pope.


In 1306, Philip, again facing financial difficulties, devalued his currency which created a rebellion, and he took refuge in the Tower of the Temple in Paris under the protection of the Templars; another mistake on the part of our ancient brethren. It is thought that his time spent in the Tower gave him opportunity to see firsthand the riches of the Templars to whom he already owed a great financial debt.

He knew the money was really there. He ordered the Templar in charge to loan him an enormous amount without collateral and received the loan. When the books were later audited by DeMolay, the Grand Master expelled the offending loan officer from the Order.


It seems pretty clear to me that Philip IV was motivated by a desire to follow in his grandfather's footsteps and be accepted as the devout and indisputable leader of the Christian world. This required money, and he apparently would stop at nothing to get the money he needed to accomplish his ambitions.

As you know, the Templars were originally presumably founded to protect Christian pilgrims on their pilgrimages to the holy city of Jerusalem. Although the Islamic rulers of Jerusalem as well as the Christians had at that time, a policy that allowed these pilgrimages, the pilgrims were apparently often attacked by bands of robbers as they neared Jerusalem. As the region fell more securely under Christian control and as further crusades were launched, the Templars gradually shifted into the role of Christian warriors and crusaders.


This new role at first created a dilemma because of the conflict between the killing of one's enemies and the long established Christian teaching of passivism or turning the other cheek. Their friend, St. Bernard of Clairvaux, assisted them in this respect by formulating the "doctrine" that killing in defense of the Christian religion was not in conflict with the early Christian teaching and practice of what we now call "non-violence."


Subsequently, they took an active part in most of the crusades in the Holy Land or Outremer. The Hospitalers started out providing medical care and also evolved into crusaders, but retained a medical mission as well. In order to support their military efforts, the Templars developed a very large network of agricultural and banking businesses. They began to admit personnel with skills in business, agriculture, building, and manufacturing and made a good deal of money. Remember however, that all this was strictly in support of the central mission of conquering and holding the city of Jerusalem and surrounding areas.

When Acre fell, they lost their last foothold in Palestine and also their Grand Master. The ones who survived took refuge on Cyprus and then elected a new Grand Master Thibaud Gaudin who died within a year and then another Grand Master in the person of Jacques DeMolay. Remember that DeMolay was an older knight from the warrior Templars, not from the banking or business side of the house.


With this catastrophic defeat, the Templars lost their entire reason for being. They had to sit and do nothing, find another war, merge with the Hospitalers, or find another mission in life. Their boss, the Pope, had been making noises about merging them with the Hospitalers, and neither group much liked that idea, so when the Pope asked DeMolay to come to France to discuss another crusade, DeMolay jumped at the chance ready to help finance this new crusade. What do you suppose ever became of that?


King Phillip had been plotting against the Templars for some time before the surprise attack and arrest on Friday, October 13, 1307. He had planted covert spies among them as members who fed him "evidence" to be used in the public campaign against the order.


DeMolay had expelled the treasurer of the Paris Temple for providing an unauthorized loan to the King of France. The King tried to persuade DeMolay to reverse his decision and having failed, persuaded the Pope to order his reinstatement. This proved that DeMolay was not untouchable.


After the King ordered the raid, he started a public campaign to incite the general population to force the Pope to suppress the order. The "evidence" presented was almost all completely false. It was particularly scandalous and shocking but simply not true. He then used the inquisition to torture the Templars and to extort confessions from the captive knights. The Templars had been subject to the inquisition since the time of the crusade against the Cathars.

The Pope, realizing that he was losing control of the situation demanded to personally interrogate DeMolay, but the King deliberately kept the Grand Master away from him. The Pope then sent his own lawyers to Notre Dame in Paris to conduct an interrogation during which DeMolay retracted prior confessions which he insisted were given under torture. After receiving the report from his commission, the Pope ordered an immediate stop to all further action against the Templars and again demanded that the King turn DeMolay over to him at Poitiers.


Finally, Phillip sent a caravan containing seventy prisoners to the Pope. The prisoners were composed of the top Templar leaders in custody and a "select group of Templars and excommunicated fugitives." No doubt, these were ex-Templars who had been expelled from the order and may even have included some of the spies the King had planted for that purpose. Curiously, when the caravan was only part way there, the wagons containing the top Templar leaders including DeMolay himself were diverted to Chinon and never arrived at the Pope's location.


The Pope never personally questioned DeMolay, but found the order innocent of nearly all the charges and granted absolution for the others. The trials were concluded on August 20, 1308, but DeMolay was not released.
In another surprise move on March 18, 1314, the King seized DeMolay and had him burned at the stake for heresy, a judgment and sentence he was not empowered to make.



At the time of the trials, the order was only around two hundred years old. The Templars, after a two hundred year tradition of heroic warfare, prosperous business, exemplary honor and chivalry, and devoted service to their religion, had come to an ignominious end.

But perhaps history is little too harsh in demonizing Phillip the fair?
Dr. Barbara Frale over looks the the impact the English Crown was facing and the Fact Richard 2nd was so broke too from wars with France and with the war between the House of York and the house of Lancaster. Richards power was in constant danger.
He even hocked his own crown as collateral to pay the loan back to the Templars. At the same time he needed to pay to keep his barons onside.

Both the King of France and England broke from being at war with each other and both fighting internal divisions in both countries. And a potential threat having with in their own borders a disciplined fighting Templar force that could decide to side with the enemy. Both kings distrusted the Templars but needed their money and no way of paying the Templars back. So its not hard to see why
Phillip the fair wanted the Templars out of the way and easy to see why Richard the 2nd with his problems saw a chance to cash grab Templar assets.


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The Jean-Léon Allie Library and Archives at Saint Paul University is proud to have in its collection a copy of the book Processus Contra Templarios, which was published by the Vatican Secret Archives in October 2007.

The book contains facsimiles of original documents, including the Chinon Parchment, which reveals that Pope Clement V carried out his own investigation in which he absolved many Templars of heresy. Only 800 copies were made, including one for Pope Benedict XVI.

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This confirms what many historians believed all along that Templars was innocent of crimes level against them.

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