The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,
This thread is for the discussion of the lost gold mine of Jacob Waltz, better known as the "Dutchman". No disrespect to those interested in the Peralta stones, but this thread is for discussing the lost mine of Jacob Waltz - not Peralta stones. If you wish to discuss the stone tablets, there are several other threads focused on that subject.

Jacob Waltz, a German by birth, came to America and traveled to California before coming to Arizona. He worked in Grass Valley CA on other mines he did not own, and later staked several very good gold mines in the Bradshaws around the Prescott area. He also prospected south of that area and bought his supplies in and near Florence. By 1868 he filed on a homestead in what is today Phoenix. He was seen selling gold in various places in his lifetime, and in his old age, when his friend Julia Thomas was about to lose her business, came up with a small fortune in gold to help her save it.

He had befriended Julia and her adopted son Reinhard (Reiney) Petrasch, and several times tried to tell them how to get to the mine and locate the remaining cache of rich gold ore. Near the end of his life he supposedly tried to take them to the mine, but the night before reaching the mine he came down sick and had to return to Phoenix. On his deathbed, two men were in the room with him while Julia went for help; those two men were Dick Holmes and Roberts. Waltz supposedly gave his story and directions on how to get to the mine to Holmes before passing away. He was feverish and dying, sometimes talking out of his head. Holmes turned up later in possession of a candle box full of extremely rich gold ore which had been beneath Waltz's deathbed, Julia accused Holmes of stealing it but Holmes insisted that he had been given it to help finance his search, with the understanding that when he found the mine, he would do right by Waltz's sister in Kansas.

Many thousands of searchers have combed over the Superstition mountains and dozens of treasure maps have come into circulation that purport to lead to the long lost bonanza. Much of the area is today officially a "Wilderness Area" but was ranch land previously, however there are severe restrictions on any kind of mining or prospecting activity in the bounds of the Wilderness Area. So anyone searching for the mine today faces very difficult legal hurdles to ever hope to own the mine or the gold.

There have been almost 100 different people whom have all claimed to have found the Lost Dutchman mine, yet none seem to ever have any gold to show for it, not even photos of ore veins in place. Not only this, but every one of those claimants have picked out a different spot! They can't all be right.

If you are expecting to be able to just walk in and spot the mine, you are deceiving yourself. Waltz went to some effort to conceal the mine; he laid in ironwood logs inside the entrance, and filled it level with the ground, erasing all trace of the mine. As he said, 'you could lead an Army pack train over it, and not see it'. He also warned Reiney to pay attention when he was trying to tell him how to find the mine, as he said "Reiney you better listen! That mine is hard to find, even when you know where it is!" Reiney unfortunately did not pay attention and never found the mine. There was a good reason why Waltz decided to use ironwood logs too, and not simply because desert ironwood is a very strong wood - it can take centuries to rot away, so don't expect to see a spot where they have rotted and collapsed, leaving a hole open to the mine.

The area to search is huge - and not a place to take foolish chances. It is some of the most rugged desert terrain on the planet, and literally dozens of people have died there in the search. Even with good maps it is possible to get lost, and an injury that would be merely a nuisance elsewhere, could end up being fatal in the Superstition mountains.

The geology of the Superstitions is not the most promising for finding rich gold deposits. Mostly it is volcanic type rock, practically barren of gold or silver except for small areas tending along the southern edge of the Wilderness Area. To be sure there is gold there, you can pan out some color in a number of places, but if you are out to find gold I would suggest almost any other gold district of Arizona before the Superstitions.

I would like to hear your opinions and theories, but please let us avoid the stone tablets in this thread - that subject is handled elsewhere and may not even be related to Waltz at all. After all, Waltz certainly didn't use stone maps to get to and from his mine, and never mentioned a single word to his friends about any stone tablets. For that matter, as far as I know, Waltz never drew any maps at all in his lifetime - all his attempts to pass on how to find the mine were done verbally.

Thank you in advance for your replies,
Oroblanco

 

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[Springfield]

OK, let's start with the idea that there is no Lost Dutchman Mine in the Superstition Mountains.

Elsewhere on this forum ( http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,120248.0.html ), I discussed a hard-to-find book that I recently came into possession of, Eight Golden Orgies, Adams' Bloody Canyon of Gold, by 'Sarah Stuart' (Zola Crosby). As the title indicates, the book's subject is primarily the Lost Adams Diggings, but the remaining seven stories concern other Arizona lost mines, most prominently the Peralta Mines and the related Lost Dutchman Mine. The writer, a multi-generational Arizonan, was a boots-on-the ground cowgirl who spent over sixty years investigating Arizona lost mines and finally self-published her conclusions some thirty years ago. While I don't subscribe to her theories concerning the LAD, her take on the LDM was new to me and seems at least plausible. I don't have a dog in the LDM fight. I'm only interested perifally. I have no pet theories to defend, so I'll present the 'Stuart' (Crosby) scenario here:

'Stuart' (Crosby) claims the Lost Dutchman Mine is a fake. She claims the Peralta Mines were not in the Superstitions, but were at Rich Hill (Mesa Colorado del Oro). Jacob Waltz, while in Mexico, obtained a map to the diggings from one of the Peraltas' associates, a drinking buddy of his (Waltz's) named Ludi. The two partnered up to find the mine, but Waltz murdered Ludi for the map. However, Waltz then misread the map. He mistook current Weavers Needle for the map's primary landmark, which in reality was Picacho Soledad en Merito, located in the desert near the Vulture Mine - not in the Superstition Mountains. Waltz never realized his error and searched unsuccessfully for the Peralta mine for years all over the the Superstitions. This info all came from a man named Bud Dozier, a close pal of the 'Stuart' family (Crosby's grandfather, presumably) who knew Waltz from his prospecting days and his later association with the Vulture Mine and elsewhere. Dozier had allegedly been shown the Peralta map at some early point by Waltz and drew it out for the elder 'Stuart' (Crosby) sometime back in the day. Dozier, who worked at the Vulture Mine, claimed that the gold ore Waltz had in his possession was high-graded from the Vulture. Waltz was fired for the offense and later was again caught obtaining additional high-grade from miners there who he struck deals with. Waltz intimidated those who accused him and was not called on the offense because the evidence wasn't strong enough to prosecute with. As time went by, the 'Lost Dutchman' mine legend grew, and Waltz did nothing to dissuade searchers. He could not locate the Peralta Mine himself, his map was obtained by murder and his ore was stolen.

I've heard the Vulture high-grade allegations before, which have been dashed by the 'somebody checked Waltz's ore against Vulture ore, and they don't match' argument. My questions concerning this point would be, 'Who did the comparison? When? Where were the ore samples obtained? What methods, other than visual, were used? Where are the results?' Anyway, for a fresh discussion of the Waltz Mine, let's start at the beginning - was there really a Waltz Mine?

 

[BILL96]

After being gone for several months it's good to see very little has changed, a sign of any good soap opera is being able to return months or years later and not skip a beat.
"Springfield" a really good explanation of the ore comparison testing process is described in Thomas Glovers book on the Lost Ductman mine.
I think if waltz really did find that big gold strike and he certainly could have. Even tho the supers is not really very good gold country as gold producing districts go it still could have happened. If he did indeed cover it up or I think an earthquake could also have help hide any evidence I think the odds of anyone ever stumbling onto that same tiny almost microscopic spot is pretty small. I never believed their was ever an original map to the location and I certainly do not believe that any of the sixty or so maps that have since surfaced will lead you anywhere except a nice walk in beautiful country.
I seem to remember reading in Helen Corbins "Lost Dutchman Bible" (i think that's what it was called) one of the illustrations was a receipt reported to be from the the actual transaction showing where Waltz shipped 50lbs of ore and received $7,000. if that was in fact true, the ore had to have been at least 50% gold and that to me is mind boggling.

Bill

 

[cactusjumper]

After being gone for several months it's good to see very little has changed, a sign of any good soap opera is being able to return months or years later and not skip a beat.
"Springfield" a really good explanation of the ore comparison testing process is described in Thomas Glovers book on the Lost Ductman mine.
I think if waltz really did find that big gold strike and he certainly could have. Even tho the supers is not really very good gold country as gold producing districts go it still could have happened. If he did indeed cover it up or I think an earthquake could also have help hide any evidence I think the odds of anyone ever stumbling onto that same tiny almost microscopic spot is pretty small. I never believed their was ever an original map to the location and I certainly do not believe that any of the sixty or so maps that have since surfaced will lead you anywhere except a nice walk in beautiful country.
I seem to remember reading in Helen Corbins "Lost Dutchman Bible" (i think that's what it was called) one of the illustrations was a receipt reported to be from the the actual transaction showing where Waltz shipped 50lbs of ore and received $7,000. if that was in fact true, the ore had to have been at least 50% gold and that to me is mind boggling.

Bill

Bill,

The methodology used for the ore testing done by Dr. Glover is good, it's the source of some of the ore that is in question. I may be wrong, but I believe some of the ore came from Kraig Roberts.
If that's true, it's questionable.

It's possible the draft you referred to, for $7,000. came from the same source. If so, it has little credibility. Bob Corbin has removed Helen's "Bible....." from sale, where he could. When those that are left are sold, the book will no longer be available.....unless used. Had they known what Bob knows now, that book never would have seen the light of day.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Cuber ?? how-n-ell did I get into this conversation ?? snicker.

Seriously, am avidly listening, although the LDM is not on my agenda, nor ever has been.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[EE THr]

OK, let's start with the idea that there is no Lost Dutchman Mine in the Superstition Mountains.

I have to say that I always wondered, if Waltz really had found the riches which the legends claim, why he led his life the way he apparently did.

I mean, if he knew that he had found so much gold, and if he was as crafty as he is said to have been, why did he suffer so much hardships?

Why didn't he bring out more gold at a time, but just crush it down and pan a little out at a time, so he could tell people that he only hit a few small placer spots from time-to-time, and made "just enough to get by"? Then, when he had enough gold saved up, he could bank it, and buy a new ranch, and hire some help, and just tell everyone that he had finally found a good pocket, in some obscure location, and cleaned it out? That way, he could eventually sneak back to his real spot, for more gold, if he ever needed to.

Unless he really wasn't very bright, his life story just doesn't seem to match his supposed fortune.

 

[BILL96]

Joe,
When I first read the "bible" and saw that receipt it seemed a little unbelievable that such a document could really have survived after all this time, but there it was. I guess it must have seemed credible at the time it was written.

Bill

 

[Springfield]

....the ore comparison testing process is described in Thomas Glovers book on the Lost Ductman mine....

'In Theory', this appears to provide a logical forensic conclusion, and maybe it is. However, two things prevent me from accepting the test conclusions as irrefutable. The first is the provenance of the alleged Waltz ore. It came through Dick Holmes, I guess, so we have to pin its genuineness to Holmes' overall integrity, and maybe more to the point, whoever obtained the stuff later. For the sake of brevity, I'll defer on this point because I have no specific reason to assume that the tested ore wasn't Waltz's.

The second snag is that, having worked as an underground miner and seen lots of visible gold in quartz (including picture rock as rich or richer than the 'matchbox' ore), both from surface and deep deposits, I am not convinced that all ore from any given mine has a single unique 'fingerprint'. In my opinion, there are too many determining factors. Glover's Vulture Mine surface grab samples are fine, but we don't really know if this material was the same as the original Vulture production vein. Why wasn't it mined? Was it a minor stringer? How far from the production vein? The reason I say this is because I've seen gold ore change radically when veins are cross-faulted, when the host (quartz) changes from clean solid white to vuggy, when the vein splits off stringers, etc. I don't know how the chemical anaysis changes (if it does), but physically, in ten feet I've seen the gold ore change from small flecks in white quartz on both sides of a wide silver/copper/lead/zinc core to stringers of geode-like vugs of clear quartz crystals with pure fine gold wire, and then back to solid white quartz picture rock with red iron stains. It'd be tough to say that it all came out of the same drift, but it did. This is anecdotal, yes, but all of life is anecdotal. Science is wonderful, but not infallible.

Bottom line: the Waltz high-grading allegation would still be on the table for me. From the Vulture Mine? Low odds, apparently, but not necessarily zero.

 

[BILL96]

Springfild,
I must agree with you, a single vein originating hundreds or thousands of feet beneath the surface and shooting stringers possibly miles in different directions, who knows what changes it may be going thru. It may very well appear differently in different out croppings yet originating from the same source.

Bill

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings everyone,
This is a very long reply so I must beg your indulgence, but some interesting points have been brought up. Thank you in advance.
Springfield wrote

I've heard the Vulture high-grade allegations before, which have been dashed by the 'somebody checked Waltz's ore against Vulture ore, and they don't match' argument. My questions concerning this point would be, 'Who did the comparison? When? Where were the ore samples obtained? What methods, other than visual, were used? Where are the results?' Anyway, for a fresh discussion of the Waltz Mine, let's start at the beginning - was there really a Waltz Mine?

I see that others have already addressed the Vulture ore comparison, Dr Glover specifically. Other mines have also been proposed as the true source including the Bulldog and Mammoth, but the ores do not match. The ore has been the subject of some interesting debates on the LDGM forum, which resulted in some convincing chaff being added to the mix of information by some individuals, apparently with the intention of getting Dutch hunters to search for the wrong kind of ore and wrong kind of ore deposit. I will return to the ore subject in a bit, as well as the other point about the mine not being located in the Superstitions.

EE THer wrote

I have to say that I always wondered, if Waltz really had found the riches which the legends claim, why he led his life the way he apparently did.

I mean, if he knew that he had found so much gold, and if he was as crafty as he is said to have been, why did he suffer so much hardships?

Why didn't he bring out more gold at a time, but just crush it down and pan a little out at a time, so he could tell people that he only hit a few small placer spots from time-to-time, and made "just enough to get by"? Then, when he had enough gold saved up, he could bank it, and buy a new ranch, and hire some help, and just tell everyone that he had finally found a good pocket, in some obscure location, and cleaned it out? That way, he could eventually sneak back to his real spot, for more gold, if he ever needed to.

Unless he really wasn't very bright, his life story just doesn't seem to match his supposed fortune.

It appears that you are working from the assumption that anyone who found a rich gold mine, would then proceed to make himself as wealthy as possible. Waltz was seen selling small amounts of gold in various places before his old age, and seems to have been perfectly comfortable and happy with his homestead, raising some chickens. His accumulated gold while considerable, was not in the millions; it looks more like what Tom Kollenborn proposed that he had simply gotten enough gold to make himself comfy and as a sort of insurance for his old age and was satisfied with that.

Waltz also knew how people can be when it comes to gold - several times he was tracked and followed, and he warned Reiney to keep quiet about it when he sent him to sell a small amount of gold. Anyway I have to respectfully disagree on this apparent failure of Waltz to "cash in" to the maximum amount as a sign of not being too bright, it may well have been very bright indeed. People will kill for gold.

Now to return to the Vulture ore, Waltz highgrading scenario. In one of Helen Corbin's books (I think "Curse of the Dutchman's Gold" but can check if someone wishes) she included two sworn affadavits from Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn; both stated that they had seen an assay report done by Goldman's store for Dick Holmes when he wanted to sell the ore from Waltz. It was some $110,000 in gold to the ton, with gold at the then current price of $20.67 per ounce. They also added that an ore comparison had been done at the University of Arizona, and that the ore did not match any known source. It came from an unknown source. Further, a search of the still existing records from the Vulture mine show that Jacob Waltz never worked there so this scenario doesn't work well. Besides, at the Vulture stands a spooky looking old tree known as the "Hanging Tree" where highgraders and thieves paid the ultimate price. It would have been very unwise for Waltz to have been stealing ore.

Rich gold ores while not common, are by no means unknown for Arizona and the southwest in general. Now we have to go to logic - for if Waltz simply had possession of a cache of very rich ore, perhaps obtained by murdering Peraltas or their peons or some other unfortunate miners, ask yourself this: why then would he have pointed to the Superstition mountains and told his friends Julia and Reiney that his mine was located up there? He was willing to dip heavily into his own "insurance" gold cache just to help Julia save her business, if it were really just a cache of illicit ore or bullion why would he then turn to them and tell such a blatant lie? To get them to go and perhaps perish in the mountains? This does not strike me as a logical scenario.

Now as to Springfield's other talking point - let us say that the mine isn't located in the Superstitions at all? Again we have to ask why he would tell his friends that it was located there, but other points are in favor of this idea, the geology is more promising in the Goldfield district for instance or well to the east in the Randall/Rogers district; Holmes once found a marker with Waltz's name on it near Picket Post too. Dick Holmes first trip after the death of Waltz was not into the Superstitions wilderness area but to the north side of the Salt river to Hidden Spring. There are legends of lost mines associated with Four Peaks that sound remarkably like the Dutchman's lost mine too, such as the Black Maverick. In that story, a cowboy chasing a maverick bull happened to discover an old mine when the bull (or the horse, depending on which version you look to) put a foot through a covering consisting of rotted logs with earth on top. The ore was supposedly very rich. Ruins of an old cabin were nearby, and a spring. It is making a leap to conclude it must be Waltz's mine based on the fact that it was covered over similarly to his, but another point was that the vein itself was described as an eighteen inch thick white quartz vein.

Then there is the Vulture area, and curiously or coincidentally there is another Lost Dutchman gold mine in that same area. is it too much coincidence? The Dutchman of this other story even would wrap his mule's feet in burlap to muffle the sound when he would leave Wickenburg, so as not to be trailed back to his mine. Unfortunately this other Dutchman can't be the same as Waltz since he was found dead out in the desert, after Waltz's death; the ore found with his remains did not match a nearby prospect. But this other Dutchman may well be the link to how we get stories of Waltz stealing ore from the Vulture, just as the point about wrapping mule feet in burlap has gotten confabulated with Waltz.

Springfield also wrote

The second snag is that, having worked as an underground miner and seen lots of visible gold in quartz (including picture rock as rich or richer than the 'matchbox' ore), both from surface and deep deposits, I am not convinced that all ore from any given mine has a single unique 'fingerprint'. In my opinion, there are too many determining factors.

A geologist would disagree with you. While there are wide variations in any vein or lense, the comparisons are for the mineral makeup of the ore, the particle size, and other factors not just a "snapshot" of what might be just a rich pocket. The highgrading scenario won't float. Waltz almost certainly would have been hand-picking the best ore to pack out which is only logical since they were working by hand, which would tend to give an inflated impression of how rich the vein is in reality but unless someone can find a matching ore and explain why Waltz would lie to his best remaining friends on Earth, I can't agree that the scenario works.

As for Holmes veracity, we would have to wonder why he would introduce ore from a false source into the mix, and then spend the rest of his life out searching for the mine of Waltz. It is illogical. He may not have been a "good guy" but I fail to see why he would falsify the ore story, and proceed to search for so many years.

Thank you for your very thought provoking replies, and for your patience with yet another very long winded post. I hope you all have a very pleasant evening.
Roy

 

[Springfield]

.....Now we have to go to logic - for if Waltz simply had possession of a cache of very rich ore, perhaps obtained by murdering Peraltas or their peons or some other unfortunate miners, ask yourself this: why then would he have pointed to the Superstition mountains and told his friends Julia and Reiney that his mine was located up there? He was willing to dip heavily into his own "insurance" gold cache just to help Julia save her business, if it were really just a cache of illicit ore or bullion why would he then turn to them and tell such a blatant lie? To get them to go and perhaps perish in the mountains? This does not strike me as a logical scenario......

Perhaps he was willing to help his friends but was unwilling to come clean as to the true origin of the ore. After all, the man was alleged to have done some dastardly deeds, rightly or wrongly, in obtaining the rock. If he was guilty of these allegations, maybe he didn't want to admit to his past and covered it with a story that would be plausible enough to believe. It's not possible to 'logically' judge the man, his actions, and surely not his thoughts after so many years, since all we have is a pile of circumstantial evidence and a mountain of speculation and opinions from others. We know for sure that we want to believe in the LDM, and we filter all aspects of the story accordingly. True believers are quite often mistaken in their beliefs.

 

[EE THr]

Oro---

On one hand, I think it would be foolish of Waltz to have given out all the clues about his "mine," and it's whereabouts, as are attributed to him by the legends. Somewhere on this forum I read that he was knowledgeable about mining before he even came to the U.S. And apparently he worked and prospected here, before he came into his famous fortune. So, he must have thought about what he would do, if he made a large strike, for some time. Long enough to know better than to get all chatty about discovering anything significant.

On the other hand, CJ posted that the origin of most of Waltz's supposed statements about his big discovery, evidently originated from a single person, who, over a period of time, made it all up, and these stories just got spread around. If that's true, it leaves only Waltz's supposed deathbed statements to be considered. And would mean that he wasn't necessarily so foolish to be blabbing all over the place about it, after all.

If, as Springfield proposed, Waltz never found the mine, then he could have been telling, just before he died, where he thought the mine should be. If that were the case, he would be recalling the alleged map, and merely assuming that it started at "the first deep canyon on the South side" of the Superstitions.

But the story goes that Waltz said the Peraltas "told" him how to get there, and there was no mention of a map.

And there is also your point that there is no record of Waltz ever working at the Vulture.

Also, I really can't disagree with your scenario of his satisfaction with being "comfy." He could have figured that he could always go back for more, if needed. But then he got sick, instead.

 

[BILL96]

I am not the least bit surprised that Julia and Rheiny couldn't find it. If you are down in the middle of old phoenix pointing to the mountains in the distance and tried to describe to someone how to get to a given spot in the superstition mountains it would be nearly impossible. Even today it would be nearly impossible without a very good map.
The mountains are probably a two day ride from his old house and then they are BIG. The closer you get,the bigger they get and their are dozens different canyons to enter from. Without a VERY good map and some prior knowledge of the area a new comer to those mountains had no chance in hell of finding anything. Even if Rhieny had written the directions down very carefully the odds were still against him. Those mountains are just so big and the fact that anyone coming from old phoenix is traveling from such a distance the chance of them finding the correct canyon to enter from, without some prior knowledge or a sign post of some sort is just too great. Even today the thought of traveling in a wagon or horseback from downtown phoenix to mountains would be a challange. The idea that Julia and Rhieny made this trip in the summertime is incredible to me, that is some harsh country but I guess in those days you had to be tough.

 

[gollum]

EE,

What Waltz said to Julia and Rhiney was taken from interviews with them conducted by Sims Ely and Jim Bark.

There are no ifs, ands, or buts about what he said. He told them in no uncertain terms that his mine was in some very rugged country. He even told them where they would enter the mountains to go get one of his caches, and you had to know where the caches were to find the mine (and vice versa). He didn't care to have Rhiney get the mine because he wouldn't know what to do with it. He knew nothing about prospecting or mining. Waltz wanted him and Julia to get the cache and sell the gold.

Notwithstanding the possible erroneous documentation, there is WAAAAAAAAY more than ample evidence to show that Waltz had a very rich source of gold ore in the Superstitions. Since he told both Julia and Rhiney that he had a mine, there is no reason to doubt what we KNOW he said.

Mike

 

[Cubfan64]

I am not the least bit surprised that Julia and Rheiny couldn't find it. If you are down in the middle of old phoenix pointing to the mountains in the distance and tried to describe to someone how to get to a given spot in the superstition mountains it would be nearly impossible. Even today it would be nearly impossible without a very good map.
The mountains are probably a two day ride from his old house and then they are BIG. The closer you get,the bigger they get and their are dozens different canyons to enter from. Without a VERY good map and some prior knowledge of the area a new comer to those mountains had no chance in hell of finding anything. Even if Rhieny had written the directions down very carefully the odds were still against him. Those mountains are just so big and the fact that anyone coming from old phoenix is traveling from such a distance the chance of them finding the correct canyon to enter from, without some prior knowledge or a sign post of some sort is just too great. Even today the thought of traveling in a wagon or horseback from downtown phoenix to mountains would be a challange. The idea that Julia and Rhieny made this trip in the summertime is incredible to me, that is some harsh country but I guess in those days you had to be tough.

Bill - take your scenario of trying to tell 2 people how to get somewhere in the mountains and then also add in the fact that both of those people were "city dwellers" with pretty much no clue what the mountains were like. IMHO, Julia and Rhiney were doomed right from the start.

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,
This got to be another very long reply, so I must beg your indulgence again, thanks in advance.
Springfield wrote

Perhaps he was willing to help his friends but was unwilling to come clean as to the true origin of the ore. After all, the man was alleged to have done some dastardly deeds, rightly or wrongly, in obtaining the rock. If he was guilty of these allegations, maybe he didn't want to admit to his past and covered it with a story that would be plausible enough to believe. It's not possible to 'logically' judge the man, his actions, and surely not his thoughts after so many years, since all we have is a pile of circumstantial evidence and a mountain of speculation and opinions from others. We know for sure that we want to believe in the LDM, and we filter all aspects of the story accordingly. True believers are quite often mistaken in their beliefs.

Is it a case of "wanting" to believe? With some things I would agree like the stone tablets, an element of the inner desire to believe is definitely in play but Waltz is a fairly well documented real person, and his sales of gold (while not in the millions) are documented and witnessed. The few specimens purported to have come from his mine still exist. The clues do not all originate from a single source who later admitted to making it all up as you claim. I would highly suggest the book "The Lost Dutchman Mine" by Sims Ely. Ely is not a perfect source but did personally interview several of the friends of Waltz, which is as close to the original source as we can get. Bicknell interviewed Julia Thomas, but added in his own material which leaves little of use. Are we to believe that Waltz did not exist? That he did not sell a sizable amount of very rich gold ore to lend money to help Julia? Where did this ore come from if not from a mine? The only specimens still existing don't match any known source. As for the allegations of Waltz being a killer - these mainly come from that source you mentioned, who later admitted to having made up so much. At the other end of the spectrum, among the skeptics there may well be an element of "sour grapes" involved too; since having failed to find it, it is more comforting to think that it never existed or was altogether a different deal as in stolen high grade ore.

EE THr wrote

But the story goes that Waltz said the Peraltas "told" him how to get there, and there was no mention of a map.

Actually the story goes that Waltz and his partner were not told how to get to the mine, they personally accompanied Peralta to the mine so learned how to get there by going there. No map was involved, as you pointed out. Our mutual friend Mike already covered much.

Blindbowman wrote

maybe more of it is true then you know .. maybe both sides of the coin are true ... if waltz killed the peralta and took the stones he could have learned about the mine from the stones .

There are several other threads focused on the Peralta stones, which is where that subject is most welcome. I am not convinced in the least that they relate to the mine of Waltz at all, and this thread is not for the discussion of the stone tablets. I thought this was clear in the title and opening post. Not going to hijack this thread into another endless Peralta stones battle, some of us would like to talk about Waltz and his mine without the stones.

Blindbowman also wrote

or the peralta them selfs could have told waltz about the mine .. maybe that why he never gave clear directions to the mine and thats why it took me so long to find it ...

but i am just saying that for the sake of debate ,, i know Waltz had seen the real mine ...

i under stand why you all are confused about what waltz knew and did not know and the details of the mine ..

if you had told me the details were facts as they are accepted facts , i would have never found it ...

its not what any of you think it is ... only parts of waltz statements are in fact true ..and even less of the so called accepeted clues have any relationship to the real mine ...i would bet my luck silver dollar that i could have 2000 people search a 1 mile area and not one would get within 50 ft of it ...

in that case i would say what waltz said was 100% out right true ," this mine is hard to find "you can be right up on it and not see it "

but what would i know anyway ...lol

let me give you a good exsaple ,, go out in the mts and stand in one spot throw a quarter over your shoulder behind you as far as you can thorw it ,, now trun around and find it ....lol now do get the idea

Taking the last first, I agree that a mine is quite easily lost in a desert; much easier than many people can believe. I had intended to do up a photo essay to show just how easy a mine can be "lost" without any effort at concealment done, but last winter when Beth and I went back to the mine in question, you can no longer get to it even for photographic purposes. A good simile is to go into the Superstitions or any desert mountain range, close your eyes and spin around three or four times, then open your eyes - things can look very much alike!

I get the distinct impression that you have the Holmes manuscript, and do not own Sims Ely's book? Are you aware that Brownie Holmes denied writing that manuscript commonly attributed to him? For me, that makes the manuscript questionable, and the fact that there are provable falsehoods in it even more so. I have pointed this out to you before, but in the Holmes manuscript, it has Waltz claiming that he did not file a claim on his mine because he was not a citizen; he was a naturalized citizen while still living in California before ever coming to Arizona. Next, according to those directions, you are to go to First Water, first; yet where did Dick Holmes go on his first expedition to hunt for the mine? Hidden Water. That manuscript could indeed be mostly true and correct, without knowing the exact location of the mine it is up in the air. Why do you accept the Holmes version of the Lost Dutchman story, complete with the cold-blooded murders etc? I asked you before for the name of a convicted serial killer who gave away his own life savings to help out a friend - serial killers just don't do that amigo.

As for your claim to have found the Lost Dutchman mine - well I could make the very same claim and provide no proof too. Heck for that matter I did post some photos of a hidden mine found by Beth and I, complete with tunnel and pit; can you show us a few photos of your mine?

Perhaps a discussion of the many mysteries of this subject is giving you the impression that we are all "confused" about it, when this is not the case at all. What is the hardest part of this legend is sorting out wheat from chaff, and there are tons of chaff that have been added in to the story and layered on top; there are even individuals whom are actively working to add confusion and false information to the Waltz story even today, as mentioned earlier; such as the "assay report" that was posted on the LDGM forum which was really just a cover letter of quite generic sort but which had been doctored to make it appear that some key indicator mineral was being hidden from the public, or the recent attempts to claim that Waltz's ore was tested and found to have gold tellurides in it, and that it is epithermal in origins which are both without foundation. Add to this the fact that a large number of phony Spanish, Jesuit and other "hieroglyphs" marks, engravings etc have been made in the Superstitions over the past 100 years and it is a real minefield of phony information. In this point I agree with our mutual amigo Springfield - you almost need a BS detector just to wade through it.

At the root of this mystery is a German immigrant pioneer, a capable prospector with a proven record of being able to discover rich gold mines (he discovered several in the Prescott region, which is one area I suspected was the true source of his gold for some time) a quiet and unassuming man of little pretensions, whom had had experience of men trying to track him back to his mine and knew how greed could affect people. In his last days he tried to tell his friends how to find the mine and the cache of gold ore he had hidden near it, but they did not pay attention closely enough. Since his death so much crap has been added to his story it is amazing.

Oh and on those caches; according to Ely, there were originally three but Waltz cleaned out two of them himself, leaving only one. If there are other caches, he never mentioned them to any of Ely's sources. That one remaining cache may have been found and emptied too, at least there has been a rumor afloat that it was, which will make finding the mine that much more difficult for Waltz said that you had to find the one in order to find the other.

Thank you all for the interesting replies, and for your indulgence for another long-winded post.
Oroblanco

 

[EE THr]

EE THr wrote

But the story goes that Waltz said the Peraltas "told" him how to get there, and there was no mention of a map.

Actually the story goes that Waltz and his partner were not told how to get to the mine, they personally accompanied Peralta to the mine so learned how to get there by going there. No map was involved, as you pointed out. Our mutual friend Mike already covered much.

Why is the "accompanied" story better than the "told" story?

 

[Oroblanco]

EE THr wrote

But the story goes that Waltz said the Peraltas "told" him how to get there, and there was no mention of a map.

Actually the story goes that Waltz and his partner were not told how to get to the mine, they personally accompanied Peralta to the mine so learned how to get there by going there. No map was involved, as you pointed out. Our mutual friend Mike already covered much.

Why is the "accompanied" story better than the "told" story?

It comes from Sims Ely. There are elements in the Holmes version which are parallels, and Dick Holmes even visited Julia to cross check things. I don't know where the version came from that has Waltz "told" how to get to the mine, but Holmes version has Waltz discover the mine being worked by Mexicans quite by accident and then proceeds to murder them. Can you recall who had the version of Waltz being told how to get to the mine, rather than the Ely or Holmes version? Thank you in advance.

Oh and the third version which is little published or mentioned, has Waltz find his mine by simple diligent prospecting, following a trace of gold back to the vein by use of a drywasher he had custom constructed by a carpenter in Florence. No Peraltas or massacres, murders etc in that version but it may be the true one for all that. Tom Kollenborn had an article with this version in the Kollenborn Chronicles, which is the only published version I know of but it originates with people interviewed during the depression, the so-called "pioneer interviews" done to put writers to work for the WPA.

Oroblanco

 

[Blindbowman]

and you wonder why you couldnt find it ...

 

[Springfield]

.... Since he told both Julia and Rhiney that he had a mine, there is no reason to doubt what we KNOW he said.

Mike

Third-hand at best.