What would you do?

boogeyman

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It is against the law to lie to law enforcement like the IRS. They will ask you where you got all the money you spend.
Sammy Sammy............ No ones talking about lying. Omitting things or "forgetting" is a whole different story. One simple answer got me out of so many jams in the military & life in general.

"Sir, I don't recall being there that day." Lying versus having a cruddy memory are different. After listening to you for all this time I have to ask. Are you an agent or are you employed by the Internal Revenue Service?
 

Dirt1955

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I would cut a deal with the nearest native indian tribe. Makes it difficult for local, state, and federal shenanigans. Who knows, the tribe might want to hide it again.
Then I would write the historical fiction novel, change the names of the players, and sleep well at night.
 

MiddenMonster

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I would cut a deal with the nearest native indian tribe. Makes it difficult for local, state, and federal shenanigans. Who knows, the tribe might want to hide it again.
Then I would write the historical fiction novel, change the names of the players, and sleep well at night.

Just remember, anyone who might want to hide something "again" can also hide you just as easily. Also remember that when you talk with even one other person about doing something that could in any way be deemed shifty or illegal you open yourself up to that magical word the government loves: "Conspiracy". The more people in on the deal you cut, the bigger the conspiracy. The difference is the Indian tribe is going to have a lot more legal protection from the wrath of the feds that you will have. You're liable to have both the Indians and the feds pointing the finger at you before it's all said and done with. You'd be in a worse position that Harvey Weinstein with that kind of legal opposition.
 

KANACKI

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Holla Amigos

I think you are all blurring two key separate issues here together.

Take this 18th century 1780 object for example below..... This was sold at auction 20000 dollars. Auction cut 24% left 15200 profit

spanish-colonial-18th-century-20k.jpg

1. The Auction house will want some sort of Provenance but some will accepted as "grandmas jewellery." passed down the family.

Provenance : origin, source. 2 : the history of ownership of a valued object or work of art or literature etc...( if the object is connected to a famous historical figure that value goes up even higher )

As long as you can convince an auction house of ownership was prior to 1973, Easy always claim it was part of grandmas jewellery collection passed down through the family. As a one off sale it will not really be much of problem. After all the auction house gets their cut. Rule of thumb European objects are considered antique not antiquity. Most of researches into such items are not able to distinguish beyond doubts such items anyhow. ( As long as the items in not on any stolen register there should be no problem as auctioneer has done some due diligence.


2. The taxation of such a find?

Add that 15200 to your yearly normal income. But you can deduct the 24% you paid sales commission in which you can deduct that as legitimate business expense on your taxable income. Which of course that also depending where you live plus state taxes etc... So this a very basic explanation.

The tax department are glorified bean counters they are not interested where the money comes from as long as you pay the correct tax on it.

As long as you do not make a song and dance in public about a" finding treasure" no one cares.

The only time you will get reported is when you try to sell large amounts at once that rings alarm bells.

Kanacki
 
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Crow

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Gidday Kanacki

That piece I recall was 17 grams of 2o carat Gold. worth about a 1000 dollars in gold value, 24 old cut diamonds consisting of 13 rose cut and 11 table cut diamonds .About 3 carats in total. Generally, the price of a 3 carat diamond is between $19,000 and $95,000, though some are priced at more than $100,000.

The cost of a 3 carat diamond depends on a number of factors including Cut quality, Clarity, Color and Shape. Sadly this was old cut diamond consistently worth about 20 percent less than modern or brilliant cut diamonds.

Crow
 

Crow

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Most of all it really depends on what you find amigos.

Gold or silver bullion and no one knows you have found it? I would be melting it down and granulating it add copper lead and silver. Take out placer mining lease sell your gold pay ya taxes. Say nothing to anyone not even family.

E.JPG

Coins only advertise one...at a time sell progressively over time.

However not always things can de done discreetly depending on the situation. Time and place. Each treasure discovery has their own unique set of circumstances. Some times you have deal with the devil ( the government )

One thing amigos never admit to anything you do not have to.

Crow
 
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MiddenMonster

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As long as you do not make a song and dance in public about a" finding treasure" no one cares.

The only time you will get reported is when you try to sell large amounts at once that rings alarm bells.

I would really like to believe it is that simple. But I think the fly in the ointment here in the United States is the Treasure Trove Tax. It requires taxes to be paid on treasure in the year ownership has been determined. I think you could probably skate for quite awhile if the treasure sat in a box and you made the occasional feeble attempt to find the true owner. But once you have cashed in your first piece of treasure I think the feds could make the case that in your own mind, ownership has been determined. So can you really unload coins, jewelry and other treasure a piece at a time without drawing attention to yourself? I think the only way in the modern age to do it would be if there is no paper trail. These days, paper trail means digital trail. And digital trail means forever trail. If you have a lot of pieces you want to liquidate over time that paper trail is going to keep getting bigger until it becomes obvious that you are not just selling a few family heirlooms that have been passed down. So avoiding a paper trail means small cash-ins which don't require reporting. It also means any paperwork that has to be generated, such as receipts, would have to be in a name other than your own. And just like that you are in shifty territory. At that point it comes down to whether or not you can get a fair deal from a coin dealer, jeweler or bullion dealer who knows you want to stay off the radar. To improve your odds it would help to have an established business relationship with the dealer, but no matter how you slice it the juice is working against you because you are trying to avoid dealing with the various authorities.
 

Honest Samuel

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For those who live in a state that has no state income taxes, be happy that you do not live in Connecticut which has one. I never work for law enforcement including the IRS. The great Karl V Mueller always tell people to pay their income taxes and wise people like myself agree with him. The best person to ask is the person that looks back at you in the mirror. I am what my name is, HONEST. Good luck and good hunting. For the record, I am an accountant who graduated from HCC in Bridgeport, Ct.
 

Curtis

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What if you have a large quantity of valuable coins? Like from a shipwreck ..If you sell them all to a coin broker the price for each will drop. I'm thinking you have several friends or family take 4 to several large cities....and we all sell them at exactly 2 pm on the same day.
 

MiddenMonster

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What if you have a large quantity of valuable coins? Like from a shipwreck ..If you sell them all to a coin broker the price for each will drop. I'm thinking you have several friends or family take 4 to several large cities....and we all sell them at exactly 2 pm on the same day.

30 years ago it would have probably worked. But these days, with computerized data collection and reporting requirements the margin is really being squeezed all the way around. So let's say you give "several" friends and family members 4 coins to do exactly what you propose. If each lot of 4 coins is worth more than $10K total, the coin dealer has to report it to the feds if he pays you cash. The coin dealer will also file his expenditure with the IRS to mitigate his/her taxes. If the feds have "several" reports of 4 coin lots being sold on the same day (not to mention the same time) they are going to investigate. When they investigate they will get the names and addresses of the sellers, and probably be able to tie them all together, i.e. to you. Then you all get popped for structuring, and your friends and family will roll on you to protect themselves. You, being the kingpin will have no one to roll over on, so you will need to get a good supply of soap on a rope to survive your vacation at the Greystone Hotel.
 

Crow

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30 years ago it would have probably worked. But these days, with computerized data collection and reporting requirements the margin is really being squeezed all the way around. So let's say you give "several" friends and family members 4 coins to do exactly what you propose. If each lot of 4 coins is worth more than $10K total, the coin dealer has to report it to the feds if he pays you cash. The coin dealer will also file his expenditure with the IRS to mitigate his/her taxes. If the feds have "several" reports of 4 coin lots being sold on the same day (not to mention the same time) they are going to investigate. When they investigate they will get the names and addresses of the sellers, and probably be able to tie them all together, i.e. to you. Then you all get popped for structuring, and your friends and family will roll on you to protect themselves. You, being the kingpin will have no one to roll over on, so you will need to get a good supply of soap on a rope to survive your vacation at the Greystone Hotel.


Gidday amigo my apologies I thought your comments was a little overkill until I read this article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/26/us/law-lets-irs-seize-accounts-on-suspicion-no-crime-required.html


I am TOTALLY THANKFUL I do not live in your part of the world amigo.

Crow
 

MiddenMonster

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Gidday amigo my apologies I thought your comments was a little overkill until I read this article.

Thanks for posting that article, though reading of stories like that make me sick to my stomach. I wasn't aware that there were several government agencies colluding on this, or that there were more than 100 multi-agency task forces running a game on citizens. And now, with machine learning algorithms, all those agencies and task forces don't have to expend manpower to analyze things. They just loose the computers to do it, and set the sensitivity level low enough so that they scoop up the innocent instead of missing the guilty. It's all about the Benjamins. The key to all of this that makes it work for the government is that it falls under civil law, not criminal law. In the U.S. the standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt" for a criminal conviction. But it is only "preponderance of evidence", i.e. 51% for a civil verdict. The military man at the end of the article may be on to something. It may be better to trigger the reporting, remain silent and avoid the structuring accusation. Dump $20K into your account, don't say a word and make the government prove you did something illegal. Just remember to let your lawyer do the talking for you. You'll need a lawyer in either case, so why not fight it in the arena were you have better Constitutional protections?
 

Swaveab

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I guess to the government, it doesn't matter what you do as they want the money either way. Only government at all levels is allowed to steal. Our founding fathers would disagree with what they do now and they know it.

Along that line I'm wondering if the local cops will want to impound your car because you left the same time every day and they say you are just avoiding their speed traps that are present an hour later than you leave and assume you to be guilty of speeding then. It's all unconstitutional and unlawful on their parts.
 
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MiddenMonster

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I guess to the government, it doesn't matter what you do as they want the money either way. Only government at all levels is allowed to steal. Our founding fathers would disagree with what they do now and they know it.

It's the age old triangle: Power and money at the bottom corners, hedonism--the relentless pursuit of pleasure, at the top corner. Money chases power. Power chases hedonism. It's been going on for thousands of years. Now they just have better technology with which to put the screws to you if you try to disrupt their little party.

Along that line I'm wondering if the local cops will want to impound your car because you left the same time every day and they say you are just avoiding their speed traps that are present an hour later than you leave and assume you to be guilty of speeding then. It's all unconstitutional and unlawful on their parts.

I wouldn't be surprised. In Texas, at least for city laws it is against the law to drive through a parking lot to avoid the red light at an intersection. There are now so many laws, local, state and federal that anyone could be jammed up if the authorities wanted to get you. BTW, I once saw two motorcycle cops in a 7-11 and half-jokingly asked them if there was a speed trap down the road. One of the cops, in a very terse voice told me, "There is no such thing as a speed trap. If you are driving the speed limit you won't be pulled over."
 

the_mad_cladder

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I would hide 95% of it and slowly sell it. The other 5% I would post on TNET to get my 15 min of fame. lol
 

Doubloony

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I have a rule I go by. Sadly, I've never had to use it before. But it's simple. Don't say a single word to anyone. Not even if it's your own mother.

I'm editing this to add a little something. Rule #2 is 'no partners'. Not while searching or digging. Hasn't anyone ever read the books? These situations can take a deadly turn.

I think that's about it. Have a great day.
 
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