Why does the State of Florida employ people that are not honest

Salvor6

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I also attended an archie gathering where one of them said he would rather see the treasure rot in situ than allow commercial treasure hunters to recover it.
 
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Red_desert

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Does any Florida state agency ever sell any of the 1715 artifacts (or from any shipwreck)?
 

Salvor6

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Does any Florida state agency ever sell any of the 1715 artifacts (or from any shipwreck)?
NO! That's a severe taboo. Instead, they give it away! Governor Lawton Chiles used to give gold coins to visiting dignitaries as gifts. They also steal it. So much of the State's inventory disappeared that Rep. Illiana Ross-Leighten ordered an accounting of the State's inventory. The Secretary of State refused! Talk about employing people that are not honest.
 

Red_desert

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So, for them to steal recovered artifacts (rather than pay for items or sales) in their thinking, is not considered looting? I don't follow the reasoning no wonder shipwreck salvage is struggling to survive. Assuming NO museum donations either, never to be seen again by the public.
 
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Black Duck

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Here is another State of Florida University professor that should be fired, this guy is teaching our children and other students how to be a incompetent archaeologist, Dan go get some in water time and experience before you make statements that are not true, because you have no field experience,
 

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Riverbum

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My comment here is not really directed at the Government , BUT ...when ever it comes to TREASURE, no matter who or HOW it was found, suddenly it all belongs to UNCLE SAM?
 

Red_desert

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Our Founding Fathers were trying to escape from European governmrnts' which owned so much of the land. Now it's land and sea plus everything of value in it.
 

O2ptima

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Here is another State of Florida University professor that should be fired, this guy is teaching our children and other students how to be a incompetent archaeologist, Dan go get some in water time and experience before you make statements that are not true, because you have no field experience,
Hi. When will you be back in the lower court to decide on the damages due GME?
 

jrf30

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I heard Tim Parsons is now gone. Is that true? If so, is his replacement any better?
 

TheRealTim

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Aug 17, 2022
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I heard Tim Parsons is now gone. Is that true? If so, is his replacement any better?
Hi. Tim Parsons, here. A friend of mine who peruses this board told me my name came up and pointed me this way. Figured the best information is information straight from the source. This is correct, I submitted my resignation from the Department of State back in June and my last day was in July. I was offered a job in the private sector and decided to accept it.
 

devldog

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Once upon a time People started finding valuable artifacts up and down the Florida coast. So much so that people were making money. The state of Florida said “whoaaaaa not on our watch” and the rest is history. It’s a pathetic greedy joke. Florida has the best governor in the country. You need to get this across his desk.
Amen. Ron Desantis is truly a governor For the People. Governors across the country should follow his lead.
 
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O2ptima

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Global Marine Exploration (GME) does have a right to sue the Republic of France in regards to the shipwrecks GME has discovered off Cape Canaveral, the case is scheduled for trial in Federal Court, Tallahassee, FL in April 2023. GME will be represented by Lead Attorney, Steve Turner of Rayboun Winegardner law firm.

 

ropesfish

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Jun 3, 2007
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Hi. Tim Parsons, here. A friend of mine who peruses this board told me my name came up and pointed me this way. Figured the best information is information straight from the source. This is correct, I submitted my resignation from the Department of State back in June and my last day was in July. I was offered a job in the private sector and decided to accept it.
Mr Parsons - Do you see any opportunity for a cooperative relationship between the community of historic shipwreck salvage operators and the State of Florida's underwater archaeology department?
Our side of this social equation believes that there could be an equitable partnership if there were some attempt at cooperation from the Florida Bureau of Archaeological Research rather than the adversarial relationship that we have now.
 

ropesfish

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For those people who are interested in trying to fashion a new relationship with the Florida Bureau of Archaeological Research:
Since this is an election season and Gov DeSantis IS running for re-election it seems to me that a group of 3-5 well spoken, calm and persuasive members of the salvage community who haver their talking points fine tuned and their anger turned down might be able to get the ear of Gov DeSantis at fundraisers or rallies, etc. He is going to be out there 'listening to the people" to get their votes.... we are people too!!!
 
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TheRealTim

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Aug 17, 2022
5
7
Mr Parsons - Do you see any opportunity for a cooperative relationship between the community of historic shipwreck salvage operators and the State of Florida's underwater archaeology department?
Our side of this social equation believes that there could be an equitable partnership if there were some attempt at cooperation from the Florida Bureau of Archaeological Research rather than the adversarial relationship that we have now.
I am going to be direct after I provide a little bit of context. Please don't think that I am being rude or disrespectful, I just want to be clear. I also want to be clear that I don't speak for DHR anymore, and don't represent them. I'm speaking for myself and from what I've learned from my experience (which has concluded), nothing more.

I'm not and never have been adversarial with salvage folks or treasure hunters. There's no one that I worked with at BAR at the time that I moved on who was interested in fomenting disagreement or conflict with 1A-31 permit holders and it was honestly kind of perplexing to me that it seemed that way to people on the internet. Keep in mind that I've been personally accused of lying, stealing, cheating, etc. on this very board, none of which is true. I've also been accused of conspiring with French archaeologists, with a picture of me, my wife, and some very non-French colleagues shown as evidence! That sort of blew my mind.

I can say that I never went out of my way to reach out to folks that weren't directly working with my office on permits, because it didn't seem like a welcoming environment to me in the sense that people I had never met or spoken with assumed, without reliable evidence, that I was some kind of monster. Despite that, I don't have issues with treasure hunters that I've met and in fact I like and get/got along fine with several folks in Florida who have worked, and still do work, in that realm. Beyond that, I oversaw over a dozen program areas in three bureaus of state government. DHR is big and 1A-31 permits are a small part of it. BAR alone has numerous program areas that have nothing to do with salvage.

Also, I can't speak to the past. I took the job in 2015 and had it for about 7 years. Treasure hunting wasn't something that I ever focused on before that, and I don't have strong personal feelings about it now one way or the other.

Based on what I've read here, it seems that folks involved in salvage/treasure hunting frequently cite past anecdotes with regard to the relationship with "the state." There are many people who have come and gone over the years, and after perusing some of the posts on this board almost all of the comments about "the state" and "state archies" are summaries of events or statements years or decades old, written from the perspective of relative anonymity, about people who mostly go unnamed. The folks I worked with at the state had jobs to do, and 1A-31 permits were a part of that job.

So there is some background/context.

What I can say to directly respond to your question is: sure. Equitability in the context of a permit program means fair regulation on the part of a permit issuer and good-faith compliance with the permit requirements on the part of the permittee. It's a situation that doesn't involve "sides," it's the administration of a permit program. A permit program that exists in a complex state and federal legal environment that requires strict adherence to permit requirements, to be sure, but it's a permit program. While I was there, I didn't approach the matter philosophically. I saw it as a matter of administration, like BAR's other permitting responsibilities and the host of other compliance related activities DHR undertook pursuant to state and federal laws.

That being said...

...objectively, the statutory universe outside of state law has changed a lot over the last number of years. That makes it more difficult than it used to be for ANYONE to excavate scientifically or recover material from certain ships. A relationship with or permit from the state (any state) isn't enough, anymore. I think that the path ahead has as much to do with the salvage industry thinking about its business model as it does any kind of issues with the state, real or perceived.
 
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Black Duck

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Tim you wrote, Keep in mind that I've been personally accused of lying, stealing, cheating, etc. on this very board, none of which is true. I've also been accused of conspiring with French archaeologists, with a picture of me, my wife, and some very non-French colleagues shown as evidence! That sort of blew my mind.

I just want to point out this, not trying to be negative, You said that you were not in France to meet with the French on the Trinity, but yet GME has an email that says different, I can show this letter if you like, in fact it was presented in court,

You also made a statement in court that said cannon balls did not have markings on them. " Yes u did say that" And that ballast stones were just rocks and had no diagnostic value, and that a tool was not diagnostic.

I have found ballast stones that had gold and Silver in them that came from the mines of Santo Domingo, Ballast slag bricks from Europe that were to pave the streets of San Juan PR.
The Ballast stones that GME discovery on the Trinity were Flint rock, at that time Normandy was the only place they would have come from is that a smoking gun of what the ship is, NO, but they are diagnostic.

You said or Duggans did, that you cannot bring up anything unless you can see a date or name on it, Yes that was said in court.

Almost all artifacts are covered in mud, calcium carbonate or incrustation, and until and I will say again, until you conserve them and study them you do not know what they can tell you. This is true with cannon, anchor, coins, anything under water.
So I say this to you, and I hope in a nice way, You nor Ryan Duggans understands what a diagnostic artifacts is, nor do you have any experience in underwater archaeology, And Ryan Duggans has very little in water time

Honestly Tim you said that GME did not have permission to Use prop wash deflectors, and was in Ryan Duggans report "this was not true" GME did have permisssion in the permit.

You said GME did not have permission to remove a few ballast stones, cannon balls and a tool, and that they were not diagnostic. but yet we did have permission as it was in the permit, and I have emails from you, Kerry Post and Mary Glowacki to prove that.
So on the diagnostic issue either you and Duggans did not tell the truth or you are both incompetent as archeaologest .

Again not trying to be disrespectful, just pointing out the facts.
 
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Black Duck

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I am going to be direct after I provide a little bit of context. Please don't think that I am being rude or disrespectful, I just want to be clear. I also want to be clear that I don't speak for DHR anymore, and don't represent them. I'm speaking for myself and from what I've learned from my experience (which has concluded), nothing more.

I'm not and never have been adversarial with salvage folks or treasure hunters. There's no one that I worked with at BAR at the time that I moved on who was interested in fomenting disagreement or conflict with 1A-31 permit holders and it was honestly kind of perplexing to me that it seemed that way to people on the internet. Keep in mind that I've been personally accused of lying, stealing, cheating, etc. on this very board, none of which is true. I've also been accused of conspiring with French archaeologists, with a picture of me, my wife, and some very non-French colleagues shown as evidence! That sort of blew my mind.

I can say that I never went out of my way to reach out to folks that weren't directly working with my office on permits, because it didn't seem like a welcoming environment to me in the sense that people I had never met or spoken with assumed, without reliable evidence, that I was some kind of monster. Despite that, I don't have issues with treasure hunters that I've met and in fact I like and get/got along fine with several folks in Florida who have worked, and still do work, in that realm. Beyond that, I oversaw over a dozen program areas in three bureaus of state government. DHR is big and 1A-31 permits are a small part of it. BAR alone has numerous program areas that have nothing to do with salvage.

Also, I can't speak to the past. I took the job in 2015 and had it for about 7 years. Treasure hunting wasn't something that I ever focused on before that, and I don't have strong personal feelings about it now one way or the other.

Based on what I've read here, it seems that folks involved in salvage/treasure hunting frequently cite past anecdotes with regard to the relationship with "the state." There are many people who have come and gone over the years, and after perusing some of the posts on this board almost all of the comments about "the state" and "state archies" are summaries of events or statements years or decades old, written from the perspective of relative anonymity, about people who mostly go unnamed. The folks I worked with at the state had jobs to do, and 1A-31 permits were a part of that job.

So there is some background/context.

What I can say to directly respond to your question is: sure. Equitability in the context of a permit program means fair regulation on the part of a permit issuer and good-faith compliance with the permit requirements on the part of the permittee. It's a situation that doesn't involve "sides," it's the administration of a permit program. A permit program that exists in a complex state and federal legal environment that requires strict adherence to permit requirements, to be sure, but it's a permit program. While I was there, I didn't approach the matter philosophically. I saw it as a matter of administration, like BAR's other permitting responsibilities and the host of other compliance related activities DHR undertook pursuant to state and federal laws.

That being said...

...objectively, the statutory universe outside of state law has changed a lot over the last number of years. That makes it more difficult than it used to be for ANYONE to excavate scientifically or recover material from certain ships. A relationship with or permit from the state (any state) isn't enough, anymore. I think that the path ahead has as much to do with the salvage industry thinking about its business model as it does any kind of issues with the state, real or perceived.
Tim you wrote, Keep in mind that I've been personally accused of lying, stealing, cheating, etc. on this very board, none of which is true. I've also been accused of conspiring with French archaeologists, with a picture of me, my wife, and some very non-French colleagues shown as evidence! That sort of blew my mind.

I just want to point out this, not trying to be negative, You said that you were not in France to meet with the French on the Trinity, but yet GME has an email that says different, I can show this letter if you like, in fact it was presented in court,

You also made a statement in court that said cannon balls did not have markings on them. " Yes u did say that" And that ballast stones were just rocks and had no diagnostic value, and that a tool was not diagnostic.

I have found ballast stones that had gold and Silver in them that came from the mines of Santo Domingo, Ballast slag bricks from Europe that were to pave the streets of San Juan PR.
The Ballast stones that GME discovery on the Trinity were Flint rock, at that time Normandy was the only place they would have come from is that a smoking gun of what the ship is, NO, but they are diagnostic.

You said or Duggans did, that you cannot bring up anything unless you can see a date or name on it, Yes that was said in court.

Almost all artifacts are covered in mud, calcium carbonate or incrustation, and until and I will say again, until you conserve them and study them you do not know what they can tell you. This is true with cannon, anchor, coins, anything under water.
So I say this to you, and I hope in a nice way, You nor Ryan Duggans understands what a diagnostic artifacts is, nor do you have any experience in underwater archaeology, And Ryan Duggans has very little in water time

Honestly Tim you said that GME did not have permission to Use prop wash deflectors, and was in Ryan Duggans report "this was not true" GME did have permisssion in the permit.

You said GME did not have permission to remove a few ballast stones, cannon balls and a tool, and that they were not diagnostic. but yet we did have permission as it was in the permit, and I have emails from you, Kerry Post and Mary Glowacki to prove that.
So on the diagnostic issue either you and Duggans did not tell the truth or you are both incompetent as archeaologest .

Again not trying to be disrespectful, just pointing out the facts.
 

TheRealTim

Tenderfoot
Aug 17, 2022
5
7
Tim you wrote, Keep in mind that I've been personally accused of lying, stealing, cheating, etc. on this very board, none of which is true. I've also been accused of conspiring with French archaeologists, with a picture of me, my wife, and some very non-French colleagues shown as evidence! That sort of blew my mind.

I just want to point out this, not trying to be negative, You said that you were not in France to meet with the French on the Trinity, but yet GME has an email that says different, I can show this letter if you like, in fact it was presented in court,

You also made a statement in court that said cannon balls did not have markings on them. " Yes u did say that" And that ballast stones were just rocks and had no diagnostic value, and that a tool was not diagnostic.

I have found ballast stones that had gold and Silver in them that came from the mines of Santo Domingo, Ballast slag bricks from Europe that were to pave the streets of San Juan PR.
The Ballast stones that GME discovery on the Trinity were Flint rock, at that time Normandy was the only place they would have come from is that a smoking gun of what the ship is, NO, but they are diagnostic.

You said or Duggans did, that you cannot bring up anything unless you can see a date or name on it, Yes that was said in court.

Almost all artifacts are covered in mud, calcium carbonate or incrustation, and until and I will say again, until you conserve them and study them you do not know what they can tell you. This is true with cannon, anchor, coins, anything under water.
So I say this to you, and I hope in a nice way, You nor Ryan Duggans understands what a diagnostic artifacts is, nor do you have any experience in underwater archaeology, And Ryan Duggans has very little in water time

Honestly Tim you said that GME did not have permission to Use prop wash deflectors, and was in Ryan Duggans report "this was not true" GME did have permisssion in the permit.

You said GME did not have permission to remove a few ballast stones, cannon balls and a tool, and that they were not diagnostic. but yet we did have permission as it was in the permit, and I have emails from you, Kerry Post and Mary Glowacki to prove that.
So on the diagnostic issue either you and Duggans did not tell the truth or you are both incompetent as archeaologest .

Again not trying to be disrespectful, just pointing out the facts.
You posted this in a new thread so I am not going to respond here.
 

Czkidd

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Dec 12, 2018
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It is heartbreaking how the few with wrong thinking are ruining it for the world.
Its heartbreaking that the many continue to let the few with wrong thinking ruin it for all. Never understood this.
 

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