Why does the State of Florida give out exploration permits

Black Duck

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I am starting a new tread, because this is a question that the State needs to, will need to deal with in the Future. In the very soon future.
For 32 years the State has not giving a recovery permit ( new recovery permit, not one that was already grandfathered in during admiralty times) For 32 years there has not been a shipwreck found in Florida waters until GME discovered Five ( 5) under contract with the State.

So my question is why is the State of Florida giving Exploration permits, if it is never going to, never intends to, give a recovery permit? Honestly why is that,? why have a program that is so one sided in FAVOR of the State. ? To get the salvor nothing after spending millions of dollars.

Scenario: Someone finds a shipwreck, and it has an Spanish olive jar and shards, or pewter plates with an English mark, or Cannon with a French mark, the first thing the State will say its a foreign ship and belongs to another country so they can not Permit it, Give you a permit to recover even though they do not know what it is. What else is there to get a permit for a US flagged Ship??
Good luck with that, they will say it is Military.

The state has proven they will not give you a recovery permit, let you work any shipwrecks, and will turn on you and go to that foreign country to make a deal, to CUT YOU OUT. After spending MILLIONS of Dollars.

These are facts, this has happened.

So what is to done about this,? The State should make things right now for the issues they have caused company's just trying to their jobs. Then rewrite the rules to make since and easier to follow with out all the misleading words and one sided rules that only favor the State but will never allow you to recover but their twisted contracts. The rules do not even follow proper archaeology procedures because the State Archaeologist do NOT KNOW WHAT they are DOING in Marine exploration and recovery.

Sorry got a little off tract but, All Facts here
 

Blak bart

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Simple.....gets the money flowing till they deny your excavation permit. Pay pay pay, and then you never get approved for the excavation permit !! This the way they work.....they try to get you to exhaust your financial resources, and then out wait you for excavation approval. Effectively draines the financial resources of the private sector, and then denies you any recovery process !! And on top of that.....you provide them with all the data (GPS numbers) so that they can take over and deny you access to your own discoveries !! In extreme cases they designate the area a park, or special marine conservation area ..... then you have been pirated of everything of significance to your salvage op !! Nothing new....same story for many years now. Need to go after the individual archeologist with search warrents.....I've never met an archeologist that didn't have any artifacts in there personal collections and that's against the law.....in fact some of the best maritime artifact collections I've see were owned by archeologist. They should be gone after for pirating artifacts from the state of florida. Basically it's all a scam





I work with a group down here in the keys and our permit handler (as we call her) was actively working to deny us while smiling and pumping us for info. Smile and act like your on our side, and then trash talk everything about us to her cronies.....total beuricratic corruption that spans multiple governers here in Florida. They are not elected and hang on to power through multiple governorships and administration's. It will take more than bitching here on t-net, and it will have to be active protesting to bring it to the publics attention. Less than one percent of the people of florida will ever be able to see our cultural heritage while it's buried under the seabed !! If you do go and dive the sites that are protected....only someone such as myself and other salvegers would even recognize a ballast stone or EO !! Would you pay to go see a pile of rocks on your week long vacation to the keys ?? No you wouldn't !! I know this because my job is to take people out and show them things like this.....every time it's no more than a boring 15 minute snorkel around some stones you can barley see in the sand and grass. Inevitably I get the 15 minute warning.....it sounds like this....hey can we go somewhere else that has more coral and sea life !! We need the maritime museums with descriptions and displays that explain to the novice just exactly what there looking at....the state has done nothing for us here in the keys......the archeologist could spend 50 years here in the keys excavating every day and there would still be stuff to explore. There is no known NOAA, or sanctuary, museum here in the keys that explains the important work they have been doing while managing our cultural heritage !! We need to explore e new custodian of fl.keys maritime cultural heritage....they've done a horrible job managing our wrecks, and need to be fired from there custodial obligations, and replaced by locals here in the keys. When people with no practical experience from other areas of the United States immigrate to our islands and start lecturing us born and bred conchs about how we need to manage our heritage I want to puke !! Who should be managing this resource.......a person with no practical ocean experience, or the guy/gal that was born and raised in the islands and ocean and works everyday on and in these waters ?

I'm done.....same basic rant for my whole time here on t-net !!
 

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Blak bart

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Think about this......I was watching something about the j.b. magruder. This is melfishers dig boat for atocha/Santa margarita. They mentioned and showed a cad computer chart of the holes they blow in the bottom......2000 + holes in the national marine sanctuary, and were not allowed to blow one hole....whats the difference? One group is allowed, and no one else is......you can't argue about environmental impact on the marine habitat and let one group dig at will, and deny the others on environmental impact concerns. Imagine what 25 knot blow for 3 days does in the way of sediment settling on sensitive corals and reef ?? But one group is allowed to blow at will in an even more sensitive part of the sanctuary. 20 years and thousands of holes have not shown to be any more damaging than any natural occurrence that has happened such as normal storms from nature !! These are buracractic road blocks and excuses !! Our lease predates the national marine Sanctuary.....so.....we will see !!
 

enrada

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Photo on 1-11-23 at 8.05 AM.jpg
Florida Archaeologists have a serious CREDIBILITY problem starting with the Mel Fisher fiasco. I wouldn't doubt they are lobbying DeSantos to change the name of the Treasure Coast to the Takeaway Coast. If you have ever read the book I am showing a picture of you would quickly realize they are just desk jockeys trying to create job security and keep us from up staging them with REAL artifacts and possibly building our own museums. The other elephant in the room is Search Inc an off shoot of NOAA, a place to get government funding to disguise their shipwreck hunting exploits. Pretending to look for corals and OH we accidentally found two shipwrecks while hunting corals. BS. I have extensive experience with one of the principals at Search trying to stop me from getting a permit. I am putting a portfolio together of Search and others together to present to the Inspector General. of their misuse of government funds. When I am finished I will PM a copy to a couple of you to see if you can add anything.
 

Blak bart

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The bureau of ocean energy management, regulation and enforcement



Boemre

Energy management regulation and enforcment ?? What the heck does that have to do with shipwrecks ??



Same with NOAA national oceanographic atmospheric administration.......again nothing about shipwrecks related to anything in that title !!

Go figure ??
 

Blak bart

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Only because it's the law, and you can get in serious trouble. I've seen boats, cars, trailers, and every artifact you ever found seized and fines leveled that will break you if you don't get some jail time. Ya ya we've all herd the guy tthat will sell it on the black market for a fraction of its value and no truth to where it came from.....you can't prove provenance without a back story, and cobbs of similar comparison can be had in cornfields of the north east. Those are not treasure coins from known treasure wrecks.....they have no context and can be had for pennies in comparison to a cobb found on a known spanish wreck.....its the story of the treasure learned from the excavation and careful research that up values the treasure. What's the difference between an eight reale found on the atocha compared to an eight reale found in a field in Massachusetts?? Ones from a known treasure wreck with a tremendous back story learned from years of excavation and research and ones is a coin lost in a field with no story behind it. That makes a simple 8 reale with 20ish dollars worth of silver into a precious artifact worth 10s of thousands of dollars !! You can't talk about how it was found unless your willing to tell thes tory of its background and discovery.
 

Winchester416

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Feb 18, 2022
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Only because it's the law, and you can get in serious trouble. I've seen boats, cars, trailers, and every artifact you ever found seized and fines leveled that will break you if you don't get some jail time. Ya ya we've all herd the guy tthat will sell it on the black market for a fraction of its value and no truth to where it came from.....you can't prove provenance without a back story, and cobbs of similar comparison can be had in cornfields of the north east. Those are not treasure coins from known treasure wrecks.....they have no context and can be had for pennies in comparison to a cobb found on a known spanish wreck.....its the story of the treasure learned from the excavation and careful research that up values the treasure. What's the difference between an eight reale found on the atocha compared to an eight reale found in a field in Massachusetts?? Ones from a known treasure wreck with a tremendous back story learned from years of excavation and research and ones is a coin lost in a field with no story behind it. That makes a simple 8 reale with 20ish dollars worth of silver into a precious artifact worth 10s of thousands of dollars !! You can't talk about how it was found unless your willing to tell thes tory of its background and discovery.
The market decides what it’s worth... along with that, supply and demand...

The only laws that are mandatory in the US are the ones in the constitution. all others are subject to change...
 

Treasure_Hunter

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Why do you need the States permission? Just do it! It’s not a State resource...

STOP getting permission, and stop giving them information!

It doesn’t belong to the other counties , it belongs to whom finds it and takes possession of it...
It is state law, violating state law has severe consequences and can cost you everything.

Florida state waters are from shore to 3 nautical miles on the Atlantic and from shore to 9 nautical miles on the Gulf. In most places, federal waters extend from where state waters end out to about 200 nautical miles or to where other country's waters begin.
 

OP
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Black Duck

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Think about this......I was watching something about the j.b. magruder. This is melfishers dig boat for atocha/Santa margarita. They mentioned and showed a cad computer chart of the holes they blow in the bottom......2000 + holes in the national marine sanctuary, and were not allowed to blow one hole....whats the difference? One group is allowed, and no one else is......you can't argue about environmental impact on the marine habitat and let one group dig at will, and deny the others on environmental impact concerns. Imagine what 25 knot blow for 3 days does in the way of sediment settling on sensitive corals and reef ?? But one group is allowed to blow at will in an even more sensitive part of the sanctuary. 20 years and thousands of holes have not shown to be any more damaging than any natural occurrence that has happened such as normal storms from nature !! These are buracractic road blocks and excuses !! Our lease predates the national marine Sanctuary.....so.....we will see !!
You are correct surge dose more to move sand than a prop wash ever will, but its another excuse and if you keep saying it over and over it becomes true somehow
 

releventchair

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The answer is in your post.
It is to favor the state.
And insures state control within state waters jurisdiction.

You (just anyone, not you directly) are permitted to do the work of locating resources for the state. In a non destructive fashion. (Don't fart sideways underwater either.) Not to extract them. The state will decide who and when on that topic.

Years ago I studied (indirectly/armchair) Cuban wrecks and waters and recoveries and the who's and whys.
No surprise , Florida also keeps as tight a leash on salvage as it/"they" can. Nevermind the value of salvage to it's citizens. Or incentivizing artifacts be treated as public history by the state exchanging credit and fair values to recoveries and preserving them for thier future in a manner the public has access to viewing them for the relics historic value..
 

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Black Duck

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Maybe someone can school me on this. How did Mel Fisher get his rights to salvage? Obviously in the court of law, but how?
He got an Admiralty arrest, before the ASA, and the MCA and because he beet the State of Florida they changed the rules, so that could not happen again, you get a win then they change the rules for the next person
 

Blak bart

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The market decides what it’s worth... along with that, supply and demand...



The only laws that are mandatory in the US are the ones in the constitution. all others are subject to change...

Well you seem to have it all figured out !! You should get into the business and go get it all. The market does drive the price and demand. The demand for sunken treasure is high. So are the prices for this treasure. So are you going to list your treasure without a COA....certificate of authenticity?? How can you prove that your treasure came from a certain shipwreck....or will that certificate just say its from this or that wreck ? No one will buy your atocha coin for 15,000$ unless it is proven to be from that wreck.....if you tell the truth and say I dove it from the atocha, and your not a known employee or investor.....then your admittedly stealing from licensed treasure salvors. If you choose to sell it without a COA, then you only realize a fraction of that 15000$.....you would be lucky if you got 1500$ because it might not be from the atocha, and could be from a corn field in upstae new York or anywhere. After all its really just 20 dollars of silver if its evenan ounce.If your not licensed by the state you are not allowed to remove anything over 50 years old from the ocean.....that means a 1970 penny is an artifact, and technically illegal to remove from the sea. I know these laws are hardly enforced but if they decide to go to court this is law !! But sounds like you've figured out how to skirt all this so good luck out there !!
 

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Winchester416

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Well you seem to have it all figured out !! You should get into the business and go get it all. The market does drive the price and demand. The demand for sunken treasure is high. So are the prices for this treasure. So are you going to list your treasure without a COA....certificate of authenticity?? How can you prove that your treasure came from a certain shipwreck....or will that certificate just say its from this or that wreck ? No one will buy your atocha coin for 15,000$ unless it is proven to be from that wreck.....if you tell the truth and say I dove it from the atocha, and your not a known employee or investor.....then your admittedly stealing from licensed treasure salvors. If you choose to sell it without a COA, then you only realize a fraction of that 15000$.....you would be lucky if you got 1500$ because it might not be from the atocha, and could be from a corn field in upstae new York or anywhere. After all its really just 20 dollars of silver if its evenan ounce.If your not licensed by the state you are not allowed to remove anything over 50 years old from the ocean.....that means a 1970 penny is an artifact, and technically illegal to remove from the sea. I know these laws are hardly enforced but if they decide to go to court this is law !! But sounds like you've figured out how to skirt all this so good luck out there !!

I have zero interest in recovering sunken treasure, what happened to make that treasure leaves me very disinterested...

That being said an overreaching, government, whom kingdom is built upon the sand, I can not stand. We are far more oppressed than our forefathers were by the evil British...
 

Winchester416

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It is state law, violating state law has severe consequences and can cost you everything.

Florida state waters are from shore to 3 nautical miles on the Atlantic and from shore to 9 nautical miles on the Gulf. In most places, federal waters extend from where state waters end out to about 200 nautical miles or to where other country's waters begin.
Work to change State Law...
 

Winchester416

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Feb 18, 2022
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It is state law, violating state law has severe consequences and can cost you everything.

Florida state waters are from shore to 3 nautical miles on the Atlantic and from shore to 9 nautical miles on the Gulf. In most places, federal waters extend from where state waters end out to about 200 nautical miles or to where other country's waters begin.
Dinosaur hunters were caught up in meaningless lawsuits in Montana... They were being drained of funds, attacked and weighted out by the bigger guys... So they had a new law put in place, way faster, cheaper and easier... The courts are a big part of the corruption in this country... Sounds like you have grounds, and quiet the following of individuals whom have issue with this... get representatives working on it...
 

Treasure_Hunter

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Dinosaur hunters were caught up in meaningless lawsuits in Montana... They were being drained of funds, attacked and weighted out by the bigger guys... So they had a new law put in place, way faster, cheaper and easier... The courts are a big part of the corruption in this country... Sounds like you have grounds, and quiet the following of individuals whom have issue with this... get representatives working on it...
They have only been trying for over 20 years, it's not going to change.
 

PhipsFolly

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Well, I spoke with a state park Ranger here in Florida recently who passed on the fact that the DHR/Tallahassee has every intention of destroying the private sector (for profit treasure hunting industry)… next plan on their agenda is to use climate change and coastal reef restoration as an excuse to shut down the use of prop was deflectors by treasure salvage operations… this individual also mentioned that they wanted to see what was in the “states collection” of shipwreck artifacts and treasures and even as an employee of the state, it was pretty much off limits for them to even get clearance to see it!!!

So what gives these corrupt greedy tax payer funded archaeologists and politicians the right to control and steal the hard work, historical resources and incomes of the people of the state of Florida?

What gives them the power to further their corrupt agenda to destroy an entire industry through unjust laws and back door deals?

What gives them the authority to make the people “criminals” for wanting to search for, ethically recover and make a living from their passion to bring shipwreck history to life for all to see and learn from and share?

The answer to these questions is plain and simple and is the same answer with regards to everything that is going on in this country with government overreach and corruption and the unraveling of society leading to the ultimate destruction of our freedoms…

Our Silence…

WE allow “them” to control our lives every step of the way while they convince us it’s for the best…

We are a nation divided… a nation blinded and dumbed down by deception from every angle… a nation that has been re-educated to believe that we are powerless and can do nothing without government control and media approval… a nation focused on self aggrandizement and self entitlement… a nation that’s lost faith and lost the courage to stand against injustice and the eroding of our rights and freedoms…

America is a nation that still holds immense promise and despite the mess we’re in on so many fronts, we can stand and preserve our rights and freedoms if and only if we decide to come together and be as creative as the corrupt individuals are at changing things… turn the tides back in favor of the people. I for one will not give up my faith, my hope for a brighter today and tomorrow for my family and the promise of what freedom truly means for each and every one of us…

And yes I sort of digressed and yes what I said sounds political and even sappy and no I don’t intend for my comments to be negative but rather inspirational…

And as far as this passion and endeavor that we have chosen to pursue together (whether as a hobby or a career), we must not relent in our efforts to be heard as there are many more folks out there who would support our position than there are corrupt individuals intent on under mining us…
 

Red_desert

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I already know about the artificial reef building projects. I noticed how they sunk an old freighter (this one years ago) possibly other ships around some reefs 2 degrees north of Cape Canaveral. Quite obvious what they want to protect. A boat with a mag would have to go around missing important shipwrecks.
 

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