My beliefs on dowsing

[Jeffro]

Here's the deal-

I won't say dowsing DOESN'T work.

I won't say dowsing DOES work.

Dowsing is a belief, period. Here's why.

After several months on this site, I've come in here from time to time to check out one interesting (I thought) post or another. After reading a bit of what people have to say from both sides of the aisle, here's what I have garnered.

Some say dowsing can be done anytime.

Others say it coincides with solar flares.

Some say it comes from within.

Others say it comes from without. (Signal lines and such)

Some can dowse from maps.

Others need to be on site.

Some say they can do it consistently.

Others say it can't be done consistently due to whatever forces.

Some say it's a "gift".

Others say anyone can do it.

Some say it takes years of practice.

Some have luck right away.


Some say pendulum, some say rods, some say forked sticks. Still others work with electronics. Some say all of the above.



I say dowsing is a belief, nothing more. If you believe in it go for it. Like another poster suggested, if you believe you can find stuff with a pair of pliers and a marshmallow taped to your forehead, go for it.

I have asked several dowsers on this forum for leads anywhere near me I can go check out. Not that it would prove anything, more for curiousities sake than anything.

If I went out with my two-box to some site someone sent me to and didn't find anything, would that prove that dowsing doesn't exist? I didn't think it would.... so the converse is also true. If I went out to a site and found something, it still wouldn't prove dowsing works, either.

Still have yet to get a lead from a dowser.


Just yesterday I was asked for a lead for a good site in a town I have never been to. 5 minutes of research and I put him on 9 square blocks of prime detecting area from the 1890's. Now, he's fairly new to all this, and I have no idea of his abilities with his machines, but his chances just got better than finding clad.

With dowsing, why would I attempt something that has no basis in fact? Something that takes years to supposedly become reliable at? Something that even after years of experience, still does not produce repeatable results?

With a metal detector, you wave it over a piece of metal that has been buried for 100s of years, it will beep every time. You can dig it, see it, feel it, taste it if ya want to.

Why spend all that time wasting it on digging dry holes? So that when something does come along you can say dowsing works!?!?

Just recently there was a dowser who posted about finding a gold vein or something gold for sure.... but he didn't wanna dig a hole 2 or 3 feet deep. Why? When I'm out gold hunting, I dig holes 2 or 3 feet deep on a regular basis. Sometimes its worth the effort, sometimes its not. Just chance, based on experience. Without L-rods.

Why would this guy NOT wanna dig a hole on something he claims IS there? Another dowser concurred, saying he didn't wanna dig 3 foot holes either. I wonder why this is? Is it because when its a dry hole you can say there WAS gold there, just so small you can't see it, rather than nuggets you were hoping for? I thought the dowser could ask questions and get responses? It would make sense to me to ask the rods if the signal is nuggets first, then.

If I ever do get a response from a dowser on a cache or even a buried car hood, and I go out and locate it with a two box and see it with my own eyes, then I might pursue it.

But in the meantime, I think I do just fine buying a store bought detector that will find metal targets 100% of the time. Research puts me in the areas with caches, sometimes I get one, most times I don't. But if my detector gets within 10 inches of a cache, it will ring off. Guaranteed. Big enough cache, my two box will get it several feet.

Again, if you believe in it, go for it. I do have an open mind. I won't say it does or doesn't work, as long as it works for you. So far, I have seen nothing on here at all that is convincing, 100%.

And I sincerely hope that those of you who do believe in it don't fall for the myriad of scamming that goes on in this field, sometimes costing the dowser several thousands of dollars.

 

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[aarthrj3811]

Some say dowsing can be done anytime.

For me that is true

Others say it coincides with solar flares.

During Solar flares I do find that the rods respond much stronger

Some say it comes from within.

It may for a lot of dowsers

Others say it comes from without. (Signal lines and such)

That’s the way it works for me.

Some can dowse from maps.

I know some people who are very good

Others need to be on site.

That is the best way

Some say they can do it consistently.

All the time

Others say it can't be done consistently due to whatever forces.

That’s the way it works

Some say it's a "gift".

I wish it was

Others say anyone can do it.

With practice …yes

Some have luck right away.

Luck has nothing to do with it.

Some say pendulum, some say rods, some say forked sticks. Still others work with electronics. Some say all of the above.

I use any and all tools to find what I seek

I say dowsing is a belief, nothing more. If you believe in it go for it. Like another poster suggested, if you believe you can find stuff with a pair of pliers and a marshmallow taped to your forehead, go for it

.

I agree

I have asked several dowsers on this forum for leads anywhere near me I can go check out. Not that it would prove anything, more for curiousities sake than anything

.

Who, what and when?

If I went out with my two-box to some site someone sent me to and didn't find anything, would that prove that dowsing doesn't exist? I didn't think it would.... so the converse is also true. If I went out to a site and found something, it still wouldn't prove dowsing works, either

.

I agree

Still have yet to get a lead from a dowser.

??

Just yesterday I was asked for a lead for a good site in a town I have never been to. 5 minutes of research and I put him on 9 square blocks of prime detecting area from the 1890's. Now, he's fairly new to all this, and I have no idea of his abilities with his machines, but his chances just got better than finding clad.

The same as I find

With dowsing, why would I attempt something that has no basis in fact? Something that takes years to supposedly become reliable at? Something that even after years of experience, still does not produce repeatable results?

But it does produce repeatable results for some of us.

With a metal detector, you wave it over a piece of metal that has been buried for 100s of years, it will beep every time. You can dig it, see it, feel it, taste it if ya want to.

I agree

Why spend all that time wasting it on digging dry holes? So that when something does come along you can say dowsing works!?!?

Who digs dry holes….I don’t

Just recently there was a dowser who posted about finding a gold vein or something gold for sure.... but he didn't wanna dig a hole 2 or 3 feet deep. Why? When I'm out gold hunting, I dig holes 2 or 3 feet deep on a regular basis. Sometimes its worth the effort, sometimes its not. Just chance, based on experience. Without L-rods.

Maybe for you

Why would this guy NOT wanna dig a hole on something he claims IS there? Another dowser concurred, saying he didn't wanna dig 3 foot holes either. I wonder why this is? Is it because when its a dry hole you can say there WAS gold there, just so small you can't see it, rather than nuggets you were hoping for? I thought the dowser could ask questions and get responses? It would make sense to me to ask the rods if the signal is nuggets first, then.

As a physical dower I do not talk to my rods.

If I ever do get a response from a dowser on a cache or even a buried car hood, and I go out and locate it with a two box and see it with my own eyes, then I might pursue it.

Your two box will tell you if something is there…not what it is

But in the meantime, I think I do just fine buying a store bought detector that will find metal targets 100% of the time. Research puts me in the areas with caches, sometimes I get one, most times I don't. But if my detector gets within 10 inches of a cache, it will ring off. Guaranteed. Big enough cache, my two box will get it several feet.

I read last week that someone digs 100 pull tbs to find one coin.

Again, if you believe in it, go for it. I do have an open mind. I won't say it does or doesn't work, as long as it works for you. So far, I have seen nothing on here at all that is convincing, 100%.

If it works for you….use it

And I sincerely hope that those of you who do believe in it don't fall for the myriad of scamming that goes on in this field, sometimes costing the dowser several thousands of dollars.

I see no advertising on this forum…..Art

 

[aarthrj3811]

As far as your last paragraph, which I left intact, above ---your admonition is just a few years too late. The scamming has already occurred, and more like hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Gee Jerry.....Can you tell us who these people are. I would like to see the show rooms of these people.....Art

 

[Jeffro]

Quote
And I sincerely hope that those of you who do believe in it don't fall for the myriad of scamming that goes on in this field, sometimes costing the dowser several thousands of dollars.


I see no advertising on this forum…..Art


You can see I didn't mention this forum at all. I can see you didn't respond to the statement directly.

Dowsers are being ripped off consistently because of their beliefs. Personally, this pisses me off in all its forms, whether it be a dowser who spends several thousands on some wacky machine, or a little old ladies life savings on some time share scam or what have you. Its taking advantage of the gullible.


Jerry, if you look back at my post, you'll see I was speaking in the singular. I agree that the cost overall for these scams is AT LEAST in the hundreds of thousands, if not the millions for these scams as an industry.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I can only guess there's lots of money made in the LRL market. Anytime you advertise that gold or silver can be found from a mile away, who's not to want to buy that? I had a Mexican fellow (Mexicans are stooped in superstion) ask me about buying one of those rods, that he saw in a treasure magazine, in the mid 1990s. How was I to dissuade him from buying one of those, when he saw the pictures of the guys posed next to their jars of coins they'd "found"? Now you tell me there's not a vested financial interest in that!

aarthrj3811, you say: "But it does produce repeatable results for some of us" I doubt it actually produces results, any more than random chance (dig around enough ruins with a metal detector to "pinpoint" long enough, and you WILL find something). But in the event you did find something with a LRL, I say, if robbing banks produces $$ for people, does that make it right?

Next you say: "I read last week that someone digs 100 pull tbs to find one coin" Yup, and every last one of those pulltabs produced a repeatable scientific "beeep"

 

[aarthrj3811]

aarthrj3811, you say: "But it does produce repeatable results for some of us" I doubt it actually produces results, any more than random chance (dig around enough ruins with a metal detector to "pinpoint" long enough, and you WILL find something). But in the event you did find something with a LRL, I say, if robbing banks produces $$ for people, does that make it right?

Same old non proveable statements....You guys are wrong about your dig a bunch holes theory...Your whole theory is wrong....Compare me with a Bank Robber I sell nothing so I know thats not why you say this. Read something other than Randi's web site and you may learn something,,,,

http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/background/nicholls.html

 

[ClonedSIM]

aarthrj3811, you say: "But it does produce repeatable results for some of us" I doubt it actually produces results, any more than random chance (dig around enough ruins with a metal detector to "pinpoint" long enough, and you WILL find something). But in the event you did find something with a LRL, I say, if robbing banks produces $$ for people, does that make it right?

Same old non proveable statements....You guys are wrong about your dig a bunch holes theory...Your whole theory is wrong....Compare me with a Bank Robber I sell nothing so I know thats not why you say this. Read something other than Randi's web site and you may learn something,,,,

http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/background/nicholls.html

Oh h3ll, Art! Did you actually go there? You're accusing skeptics of "non proveable statements?"

 

[aarthrj3811]

http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/background/nicholls.html

A Self-Confessed Liar
To be fair, he has never claimed to be anything other than a showman, best expressed by his own remark,
'I am a charlatan, a liar, a thief and a fake altogether.'
However, those he has maligned find it less amusing and persistent rumours of forthcoming libel cases would seem to be entirely justified. Perhaps more importantly still, the mischief caused by his unsupported explanations can be profound; the effect is to cloud the issues as his 'debunkings' become part of the public lore. It is thus particularly unfortunate that so many top-ranking scientists, desperate to ignore evidence to the extent that they will believe almost anyone who opposes the paranormal, still appear to take his views seriously, quoting his research as if it were really credible.

 

[ClonedSIM]

http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/background/nicholls.html

A Self-Confessed Liar
To be fair, he has never claimed to be anything other than a showman, best expressed by his own remark,
'I am a charlatan, a liar, a thief and a fake altogether.'
However, those he has maligned find it less amusing and persistent rumours of forthcoming libel cases would seem to be entirely justified. Perhaps more importantly still, the mischief caused by his unsupported explanations can be profound; the effect is to cloud the issues as his 'debunkings' become part of the public lore. It is thus particularly unfortunate that so many top-ranking scientists, desperate to ignore evidence to the extent that they will believe almost anyone who opposes the paranormal, still appear to take his views seriously, quoting his research as if it were really credible.

It's really funny how you seem to read and quote Wikipedia so often, but you never seem to understand what it is you've read.

Or are you deliberately misquoting....?

Randi was once accused of actually using 'psychic powers' to perform acts such as spoon bending. James Alcock relates this incident which occurred at a meeting where Randi was duplicating the performances of Uri Geller: A professor from the University at Buffalo shouted out that Randi was a fraud. Randi said "Yes indeed, I'm a trickster, I'm a cheat, I'm a charlatan, that's what I do for a living. Everything I've done here was by trickery." The professor shouted back: "That's not what I mean. You're a fraud because you're pretending to do these things through trickery, but you're actually using psychic powers and misleading us by not admitting it."[18] The famous author and believer in spiritualism Arthur Conan Doyle had years earlier made a similar accusation against the magician Harry Houdini.[19]

 

[aarthrj3811]

http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/background/nicholls.html

Gee af....I guess I believe my sources....Art

 

[ClonedSIM]

http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/background/nicholls.html

Gee af....I guess I believe my sources....Art

Yes, and they are using it out of context as well. Why don't you try a source that is impartial? The first paragraph of this article shows it is completely biased.

 

[ClonedSIM]

http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/background/nicholls.html

Gee af....I guess I believe my sources....Art

Yes, and they are using it out of context as well. Why don't you try a source that is impartial? The first paragraph of this article shows it is completely biased.

No response to this, Art? Did all the big words throw you off?

 

[Keppy]

Here's the deal-

I won't say dowsing DOESN'T work.

I won't say dowsing DOES work.

Dowsing is a belief, period. Here's why.

After several months on this site, I've come in here from time to time to check out one interesting (I thought) post or another. After reading a bit of what people have to say from both sides of the aisle, here's what I have garnered.

Some say dowsing can be done anytime.

Others say it coincides with solar flares.

Some say it comes from within.

Others say it comes from without. (Signal lines and such)

Some can dowse from maps.

Others need to be on site.

Some say they can do it consistently.

Others say it can't be done consistently due to whatever forces.

Some say it's a "gift".

Others say anyone can do it.

Some say it takes years of practice.

Some have luck right away.


Some say pendulum, some say rods, some say forked sticks. Still others work with electronics. Some say all of the above.



I say dowsing is a belief, nothing more. If you believe in it go for it. Like another poster suggested, if you believe you can find stuff with a pair of pliers and a marshmallow taped to your forehead, go for it.

I have asked several dowsers on this forum for leads anywhere near me I can go check out. Not that it would prove anything, more for curiousities sake than anything.

If I went out with my two-box to some site someone sent me to and didn't find anything, would that prove that dowsing doesn't exist? I didn't think it would.... so the converse is also true. If I went out to a site and found something, it still wouldn't prove dowsing works, either.

Still have yet to get a lead from a dowser.


Just yesterday I was asked for a lead for a good site in a town I have never been to. 5 minutes of research and I put him on 9 square blocks of prime detecting area from the 1890's. Now, he's fairly new to all this, and I have no idea of his abilities with his machines, but his chances just got better than finding clad.

With dowsing, why would I attempt something that has no basis in fact? Something that takes years to supposedly become reliable at? Something that even after years of experience, still does not produce repeatable results?

With a metal detector, you wave it over a piece of metal that has been buried for 100s of years, it will beep every time. You can dig it, see it, feel it, taste it if ya want to.

Why spend all that time wasting it on digging dry holes? So that when something does come along you can say dowsing works!?!?

Just recently there was a dowser who posted about finding a gold vein or something gold for sure.... but he didn't wanna dig a hole 2 or 3 feet deep. Why? When I'm out gold hunting, I dig holes 2 or 3 feet deep on a regular basis. Sometimes its worth the effort, sometimes its not. Just chance, based on experience. Without L-rods.

Why would this guy NOT wanna dig a hole on something he claims IS there? Another dowser concurred, saying he didn't wanna dig 3 foot holes either. I wonder why this is? Is it because when its a dry hole you can say there WAS gold there, just so small you can't see it, rather than nuggets you were hoping for? I thought the dowser could ask questions and get responses? It would make sense to me to ask the rods if the signal is nuggets first, then.

If I ever do get a response from a dowser on a cache or even a buried car hood, and I go out and locate it with a two box and see it with my own eyes, then I might pursue it.

But in the meantime, I think I do just fine buying a store bought detector that will find metal targets 100% of the time. Research puts me in the areas with caches, sometimes I get one, most times I don't. But if my detector gets within 10 inches of a cache, it will ring off. Guaranteed. Big enough cache, my two box will get it several feet.

Again, if you believe in it, go for it. I do have an open mind. I won't say it does or doesn't work, as long as it works for you. So far, I have seen nothing on here at all that is convincing, 100%.

And I sincerely hope that those of you who do believe in it don't fall for the myriad of scamming that goes on in this field, sometimes costing the dowser several thousands of dollars.

All i can tell you i got these cheap ones this year and they work for me but they do tell me that some people can not make them work..The first time i picked them up they led me to a dime and never failed me once some times it is junk they lead me to but they always lead me to something............

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HJI JERRY:your quote-->

However, being skeptical of dowsing, I also wanted to know if it was the dowsing rods that were pulling me to these targets, or if it was my natural intuition. So, I began testing my theory, by just thinking of the next logical place where I might find a coin. I would then walk to the spot (without dowsing), get out my metal detector, and sure enough, within a few feet of where I thought would be a likely spot, sometimes within a 4 foot circle and sometimes within an 8 foot circle, I would find a coin.

I continued testing like this, many times. Sometimes using the dowsing rods, and sometimes just guessing where the next logical spot might be. What I discovered was I could find just as many coins by guessing where to look (sometimes more), as I could by dowsing the next spot
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Reread your data, I am sure that you will quickly realize the flaw in that testing procedure.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[ClonedSIM]

By my own experience, I concluded that using natural intuition and logic, I could just as easily determine likely spots as with dowsing. My experiences have been proven to be accurate by many others who have done the same kind of testing.

At Last! Jerry, speaks about Dowsing from his own personal experience.

So Jerry, how do you explain why some of us who have repeatedly conducted the same comparison test obtained different results from yours?

Dell

After I got my results, I looked for other methods and other reasons why they might be flawed. I know this is a totally foreign concept to you, but it is the way real scientific analysis is carried out.

What I found was my results were completely substantiated by others doing the same kind of testing and analysis. At this point in time, I have no reason to believe there are any errors in the test procedure or the conclusion. Everything I've found, read and consulted supports my findings.

Please remember your testing methods and what you report about them will always be tainted by the fact you have commercial interests. I am not hampered by that bias, nor are other testing agencies and investigators.

Nice post!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Uh, sure, Jerry is saturated by bias. If you call a "bias" anything someone knows/believes to be true, then yeah, he's biased. In the same way, so too are pro-dowsers "biased" towards dowsing. So what? I'm "biased" that I like chocolate, and I'm "biased" that I dislike soap operas, etc... etc.... To say someone's "biased" doesn't prove anything. All humans have biases. The solution is to discuss the merits of each view, and hopefully truth is arrived at. People change positions all the time. Each of us probably used to hold a position in life, and when we got older and smarter, changed our positions.

"I am sure that you will quickly realize the flaw in that testing procedure" Real de Tayopa, do tell: what is the flaw? I'm lost. When I was a kid, my dad convinced me that if ..... when the family car approached a red light, that all I had to do was repeat over and over again: "change, change, change...." and what do you know, it worked! The light would change green! I suppose the test to prove it this truly works, would be to not say this line, and, if the light still changes green, then one would assume that my dad was merely toying with me. Same rationale for Jerry's test. So please explain his flaw?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Dell, I know there's no advertising allowed on this forum, but ..... w/o advertising or breaking any rules, isn't it true that you are in some sort of business related to this? Sell something dowsing related (albeit without advertising it here)?

So, someone might ask, if there's no advertising here, then how can there be a bias? I would answer that this way: Because, let's say, hypothetically, I was selling something related to dowsing (instruction? rods? LRLs? etc...) you can bet it would be in my best interest to answer the skeptics. Afterall, a potential customer could be reading the posts here. I would certainly want to protect my vested interest. And yes, this can simultaneously happen while all-the-while truly believing what I'm saying.

 

[aarthrj3811]

So, someone might ask, if there's no advertising here, then how can there be a bias? I would answer that this way: Because, let's say, hypothetically, I was selling something related to dowsing (instruction? rods? LRLs? etc...) you can bet it would be in my best interest to answer the skeptics. Afterall, a potential customer could be reading the posts here. I would certainly want to protect my vested interest. And yes, this can simultaneously happen while all-the-while truly believing what I'm saying.

Hey Tom….If you will read the posts on this forum you will find that it is usually the skeptics that bring up what Dell manufactures. We all know what Dell does BUT we don’t know what the other posters manufactures. Do you sell some type of Treasure Hunting Device ? I don’t know you from a hole in the ground.

Personally I try to speak only about Dowsing although at times I am enticed to give answers on banned subject matter. If you really believed what you are saying you just posted an add for Dell…Art

 

[aarthrj3811]

The equipment you sell cannot be separated from the art and practice of dowsing because there are L-rods involved and L-rods require an ideomotor response before they will move. Therefore, you do have commercial interests in dowsing and dowsing gadgets. That is not an allegation, that is a fact.

That seems to be the only thing you know and your sticking to it....Art

 

[ClonedSIM]

Dell, I know there's no advertising allowed on this forum, but ..... w/o advertising or breaking any rules, isn't it true that you are in some sort of business related to this? Sell something dowsing related (albeit without advertising it here)?

So, someone might ask, if there's no advertising here, then how can there be a bias? I would answer that this way: Because, let's say, hypothetically, I was selling something related to dowsing (instruction? rods? LRLs? etc...) you can bet it would be in my best interest to answer the skeptics. Afterall, a potential customer could be reading the posts here. I would certainly want to protect my vested interest. And yes, this can simultaneously happen while all-the-while truly believing what I'm saying.

It is a fact you can reach Dell's sales page while viewing this discussion in only two clicks. Regardless of whether or not Dell's devices are dowsing-related, the fact that I found it means anyone curious could easily find it as well. Given that what he sells are advertised as treasure-locating tools, it seems that Dell would certainly have a bias to continue to post here using as many scientific-sounding words as possible, and certainly it would behoove him to try and discount anyone who might question the validity of this particular "hobby."

And the dowsers wonder about the skeptics motives...