Mexican Legends on the Treasure of Moctezuma

[piegrande]

Since I have had no contact with GPR, I can not speak in an informed manner. But, if a GPR can't spot a filled 'basement' under a ~2,000 square foot house with a dirt floor, they are totally worthless, IMO. What I have read would indicate they can do that, but that is reading technical articles on them.

Anyway, it is improbable I will ever have money to obtain the use of a GPR.

May work, may not. Many have spent significant money to rent them and have been disappointed. Of course, the disappointment may also have arisen from a lack of a target to be detected. Might have to revert to a shovel to find out. It's cheaper and the results are indisputable.

Let me see if I understand what you are saying (more Real than Springfield). The only reason not to dig up the floor of a hundreds year old house belonging to known descendants of the Aztec Emperors is because I don't want the work involved?

Please stop and think this over.

I not only would be more than glad to dig, if it were allowed. I am in great physical condition for 69 years old, at least compared to most American men my age. And, for $50 a day, I could have two very strong men who are used to digging. $500 USD would raise Cain with those floors. They will be the men who eventually dig into the mysterious 'hole' I mentioned on another thread, when I get around to it. But, that is on my own property.

To drag along a funny looking apparatus with flashing lights and beeps on top of the dirt floor is probably not a big problem, except for the cost. They would probably sit and watch the fun, and if it could be shown there was something down there, there is at least a vague chance they would then allow digging. To dig it all to shreds just on a wild hunch is a whole different matter.

I think I made it clear the GPR is pretty much a fantasy thought, and not something I can ever afford. Likewise, I do not imagine I will ever be allowed to dig that ancient ruins all to shreds. Yes, it is a bit frustrating to imagine there might be something down there, or not. We cannot always do the things we would like to do.

I do think if I get a metal detector they would allow me to snoop around. Anything of significant value is probably not within MD distance, if it exists.

It is very common to be restricted on access to private property, whether by amateur treasure seekers, or university research teams looking for historical information. It is necessary to understand the viewpoints of the property owners, especially in a different culture.

There is one chance. One of the sons of the uncle who actually owns the ruins is a very greedy rascal. If he inherits, as opposed to the other sons, it might be possible to convince him to allow digging, as long as he gets anything found, which would suit me fine.

In my opinion, if the GPR showed nothing down there, I would take that to mean there is nothing down there, end of search.

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Pie grande, my reference was to myself, "I was born lazy and have successfully dedicated my life to not changing".

Incidentally a modern ground canceling two box detector will locate a refrigerator or stove to 30 ft if you know what your are doing. Do you realize just how big an excavation to 30 is unless elaborately braced?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[piegrande]

I do know very well what an excavation to 30 feet looks like. Since the government installed deep wells and have extracted large quantities of water for irrigating large fields of vegetables, the water systems have been disrupted. So, the local people have dug a number of wells, by hand, to that depth. Some find water. Some do not. They do brace them when needed, though much of the soil here is "pre-marble", and very solid. When we dug our septic tank, it was ten feet by ten feet by ten feet, and the soil was so hard no bracing was needed.

However, the old house here is not in a place appropriate for a 30 foot burial of valuables. The floors of the upper rooms are no more than 2 meters above the probable water table during rainy season.

Also, remember the alleged discovery in the lower room of the house required no more excavation than two meters.

Let me add a thought here. If it is true they found bones, and a gold necklace, and fine pottery buried in the floor, you can be sure it was an important person. First, to be buried in an important house instead of in one of the several cemeteries of that era. Second, a hidden burial. And, Third, with a valuable necklace.

I am not going to suggest it could be Moctezuma II. That would be an unbelievable coincidence. But, I am certainly not going to say it was NOT Moctezuma II. I am going to say it was an important person. Which century? Who knows?



Two box? Thirty feet? Wow! I need to know more. That would be worth saving for. I assume they are expensive, but how expensive? Several thousand dollars? Several tens of thousands of dollars? Not to worry; I will be Googling.

I just did, and Garrett has a two box GTI2500 under $1200. If I felt I had a use for it, I think I could handle that in the next year or two. The only problem would be importing it, since it is over the $1000 limit without an import broker. Perhaps I could talk to Garrett in Mexico City...



Let me point out that it is alleged the Aztecs normally did not have bullion, that is, large bricks of gold, but often fine body jewelry. So, there may not be enough bulk to trip any detector.

Also, many Spanish at the time were convinced all significant gold was found and sent to Spain, except that which fell in the lake at Tenochtitlan.

Of course, I would like to know the truth about the treasure. But, in the ancient house next to my property, probably the best thing to do is leave it alone. As long as archaeological evidence is left alone, it will be available to skilled investigators almost forever. I may have to accept not knowing, even as I live here next to it.

 

[piegrande]

I am not paranoid. Everyone really is out to get me.

Of course, I am joking. But, the community of treasure hunters can at times be very tricky, which puts the smart money on the defensive.

I got a PM from a person offering to send me information on Moctezuma if I would send an e-mail.

Odds are better than 50:50 it was a valid offer from a truly nice person, and there are many such people on this board.

At the same time the odds were not 100:0 that it was a valid offer. I am not a neophyte on computers and am well aware there are "hidden headers" on e-mails which will tell you the entire path of a mail from its source to the recipient.

Since I do not know personally the person, I had to opt for maximum security and decline his offer. I am not sending an e-mail to any person who has read my postings here if I can help it.

If that person reads this, and it was a legitimate offer, OR he did not know about the hidden headers, I apologize for the need to respond this way.

If any of you were unaware of the hidden headers, look at the menu on your e-mail program, and click on something like View Headers.

I don't know if I mentioned it, but around 1998, there was a major crime wave in Mexico City. I spent a lot of time there. To my total surprise, I found I am extremely street wise. I can spot the crooks usually a half block away. It's hard to explain but it uses the same techniques Secret Service uses to spot threats to the President. It definitely involves profiling and observing body language.

At least 4 times, there were incidents which exceeded 90% probability of a planned robbery, and I simply wasn't there.

This may get me labeled as mentally ill, heh, heh, but I actually enjoyed going out to the streets and matching wits with the thugs. Like a real live chess game. I bore easily, and this was not boring.

Anyway, yes, I am suspicious by nature.

Let me add a note here. I have been very careful not to narrow down the location of my home within several thousand square miles. If you think I have, you may be wrong. The emperor's owned property over a very large area, and sent their daughters to marry local caciques, and married daughters of local caciques. There are Moctezuma descendants all over the Central Highlands of Mexico.

 

[desertmoons]

Ah Pie, I do not take offense in the least. Thinking of security is a wise thing to do. I do so enjoy your postings. The info had to do with burial customs is all I will say but will not post it here. Enjoy your stories greatly. They make me feel I am right there and give interesting insights into life south of the border.

Thanks for sharing them.

 

[piegrande]

Real, I am aware there is a sub forum for brands of metal detectors. But, here you well know what I am doing. So, I would like to ask an opinion for my circumstances. If I go on the brand detector page, there will be hundreds of different suggestions, which becomes useless information.

I have in fact been reading in much detail opinions on different brands and models.

Right now, it looks to me like I need to decide between Whites TM808 deep seeker, or Garrett GTI 2500.

I know if there is a buried treasure here, I almost certainly need something that will go deep. And, the TM808 will go deep.

But, the GTI2500 with the Eagle Eye coil also seems to be a very good detector for shallow things like coins if I put in the basic coil.

If I get the TM808 I would also need a basic metal detector. The TM costs enough less that I could buy a modestly priced Garrett for shallow work, I guess.

Actually, I would like the older TM808 or TF900 because of the Cave function. It is rumored there are tunnels here running great distances. But, I don't know if I could find an older machine in good shape.

There most definitely is a tunnel here. The spring in the old Moctezuma house very definitely comes out of a tunnel. My brother-in-law crawled up it well over 50 years ago. Not that we think it is an important tunnel. We think it's just there to put a source of water in that old house in case of enemy attack. But, it would work for practice while learning tunnel locating.

And, the neighbor whose dad used to own this land said when he was young, they dug down and found a tunnel, but he doesn't remember exactly where, except in my back yard somewhere.

Anyway, any ideas from anyone who has followed my story of local legends? Thanks.

 

[somehiker]

Hi piegrande:

What do the local legends have to say about the death of Moctezuma ?
Do they say he died at the hands of his own people, or at the hands of the Spanish ?

Regards:SH.

 

[piegrande]

Local oral tradition says nothing about his death, and I would tend to doubt any such discussion since the death in any case was far away. I admit the local family at that time was kin to the man but that might not survive the passage of time as "Lookee there's gold in there" does.

But, I view that as a darned good question though I don't have a good answer.

 

[Tratt]

I made a post about Montezuma treasure in the wrong place, but if someone wants to check
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/victorio-peak/3366-what-current-theories-17.html#post4283372

It's about America Unearthed -series and a certain underwater cave.

 

[UpstateCacheHunter]

An old map actually places azatlan in / around the utah and four corners area. However you are right on with the descriptions of Atlantis, so who really knows? One thing is for sure, the treasure is out there somewhere. However I think people back then were smarter than they were givin credit for and have hidden and booby trapped the treasure in such a manner that it will never be found.

 

[kanabite]

Ah Pie, I do not take offense in the least. Thinking of security is a wise thing to do. I do so enjoy your postings. The info had to do with burial customs is all I will say but will not post it here. Enjoy your stories greatly. They make me feel I am right there and give interesting insights into life south of the border.

Thanks for sharing them.

hi DM i will help him, maybe maybe not ?
hope i don't get banned again.lol , i hope you are well .
take care.///bob

https://archive.org/stream/purchashispilgri00purc#page/804/mode/1up

 

[J.A.A.]

Good evening TH'ers-
Who else caught the "America Unearthed, Montezuma's Treasure" episode on Saturday night? First of all, it was a complete waste of time if you ask me. They gave all these facts and information to draw you in and get your attention, then, right in the last 5-10 minutes, hurriedly found & did nothing!!

The other thing is though, when the son of the property owner (Grant Childt's son?) was interviewed, he spoke about his dad drilling down in the area where GPR stated was an 80' chamber loaded with metal (above the middle lake of the 3) and the drill bit came back out of the hole with gold on the tip! Has anyone else heard more about this?

Thanks in advance.
All the best-
J.A.

 

[Tratt]

I watched it, said a few words in the link in my previous post in this thread.

It was somewhat surprising that Wolter gave it up just because draining the lake was not allowed and the dredge didn't have enough suction. The compromise solution would have been a more powerful dredge. It is unfortunate that the land owner doesn't want drilling because of tragedies in the past but it's their land&choice. I would go and continue where they left off but there are several reasons I cannot. It would be cool to know what is found or not found if someone will try dredging or something in the future, on that site. As far as I remember there was another series where the drilling was attempted on that same site, but I'm not sure because I did some searching and didn't find it yet.

edit:
Wolter explains some things in his blog. I didn't notice the blog earlier and assumed the reason they didn't go further into the cave was the silt only, but it was in fact also because they ran out of filming time.

http://scottwolteranswers.blogspot.fi/2014/11/montezumas-treasure-guarded-by-snail.html

 

[Tratt]

This is a good story about that treasure.
Utah Treasure: Johnson Canyon

Someone attempted to do a fundraising project to buy the land&pond.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ambersnail-protector-of-montezuma-s-treasure#home

 

[EquipDesign]

This is the way these conspiracies work, talk about a treasure in another country, one that is not accessible to everyone at any time and make a lot of fuss that will make people want to go search for it.

What if all the information and idols, the maps and the directions were brought to Mexico city to redirect everyone away from the true location of the treasure.

This is a general question that everyone is thinking but no-one wants the answer to! I believe that if the gold of the Aztec's were in Mexico city that the USA or other countries would have been there and taken it , don't you I also believe the Spanish wars to overtake the Southwest of the USA had a lot to do with those resources. Think about all the wars and the men that fought those wars and died for what, a piece of dirt. Please!!!!

I still believe the treasure is in the Southwest.....

 

[KXMember]

Piegrande I really enjoy reading your words and would happily offer our scanning equipment at the cheapest price you've ever heard of, so be sure to PM me.
I will also share in the negative feelings towards all TV shows that discuss these treasures, either they know they're full of Caca or really just ignorant to true history in the SW.
I know for fact that this ancient treasure is in NM and promise you won't here those facts until our show comes out for the Spanish still protect it today. I will also tell you that both Montezuma and Dutchman are the same thing. I do not care to argue but I can give only my word that these are fact.
Also when it comes to VP Tratt, I have seen damn near every artifact pulled out and know there are untouched chambers/entrances to VP. JFK was involved and murdered over VP among other things.

 

[piegrande]

There really is nothing to scan here, KX. I had thought to buy a deep scanner, but with more thought, am not going to waste the money. The only usable thing here would be a GPR, and no one will ever receive permission to use one...

This brings up questions I have had over many years.

Just how much primordial gold was there? Where did it come from? That is, how was it formed from a universe which is mostly CHO?

Likewise, is it possible that 600 years ago, there was a lot of surface gold in Mexico, and the easy to find stuff was rapidly found and disposed of? And so today only more complex mining processes will produce gold, and not much of it?

If so, there may indeed have been more than one treasure, as I admitted some time ago. Why would one Emperor have 20 tons of treasure and other emperors have none? That does not make sense to me. Possible, just not likely.

To me, it makes sense that rumors of gold are always in some far away place where no one is allowed to dig. All the gold that is next door to your house, laying on the ground, has long ago been discovered and taken away. It doesn't make sense that gold will be found where anyone can look with impunity. I mean no insult; I am merely pointing out the obvious.

 

[piegrande]

As a second thought, I'd like to point out that while it seems strange to some, that gold is only found in isolated places far away where no one can go, people have no problem assuming that people from places far away would pack up tons of gold and take it where the North Americans can go.

 

[KXMember]

We'd be happy to bring our equipment and scan and lowest price you can get on planet earth.

 

[piegrande]

I am sure you would. It is not my property, as I have very plainly said, I do not have rights to take anyone on that property, and I would certainly appreciate it a lot if you do not make that commercial offer again.