Aztec Trasure located already?

[piegrande]

What was troubling? Several things. You write a lot about what happened around 500 years ago, but give no explanation how you know what happened 500 years ago. I live in a house next to the ruins of a house of that family; my wife is almost certainly descended from Moctezuma I (I use the current Spanish spelling, your spelling was used long ago among many others over the years) and her family has little knowledge of what happened 500 years ago. They don't even know exactly when the first local male descendant of the daughter of Moctezuma I was born. Only that he was already local cacique when Cortes came to Tlaxcala.

For example, you mention maybe 200 warriors were sacrificed. So, where did that number come from? That whole statement sounds like creative writing. Were there 200 bodies or skeletons there? Or, did someone engage in pure conjecture based on items found? Do you have any idea what sort of logistics would be involved in sacrificing 200 old ladies, not to mention 200 very strong and fast warriors? That sort of unfounded statement can cast real doubt on what might otherwise be based on reality.

Second, I added very specific comments. When I looked them over, you edited key postings, leaving my comments high and dry. That is also off-putting.

So, my own conclusion is your posting is too unreal to be, er, real. I am not saying you have not found something important. Nor am I saying you have not found the treasure. I am saying adding unfounded details cast doubts on the whole tale. If the location and materials found by that man are real, you have done yourself needless harm by adding unfounded details.

I suggest in the future if you write about this, be VERY careful to distinguish things you find, and your interpretations of them. If you find 200 bodies, and think maybe they were sacrificed warriors, tell us you found 200 bodies, and why you think they were sacrificed warriors. If you find 200 cloaks, tell us that. Do not tell us they belonged to 200 sacrificed warriors unless you have a very solid reason to know there were 200 sacrificed warriors. Tell us why you think there were 200 sacrificed warriors involved. Etcetera,

 

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[distribuidorUSA]

Mr Bigfoot.you're to close for comfort. You understand there is a limited amount of info.when I made it to the caves most of the artifacts where gone except for small Jade beats.which I collected and trew in a crack on the side of the cave.why 200 warriors?.well that was calculated by people already dead based on the objects they came in contact with. Cloaks?.for sure they did not find 200 .not even close to that. due to the high humidity inside the caves organic material was hardly there.that should sufide. Based on what you posted before there's a strong possibility you lay your ayes on the area.but sorry to tell you.even at 30 feet away it's hard to distinguish the entrances.but hey you're there and I'm here.wish you good luck though.

 

[piegrande]

I have no idea where this place you know is.

In this case, if your detailed statements were based on books, that is all you have to say to maintain credibility. Your own. That does not mean the books were correct, of course. Nor, in the worst possible case, does it mean you actually read such books. But, I personally tend to give people the benefit of doubt when they say something as a positive statement.

In this case, the sacrifices would have been made before the early 1520's. I have never read of any Aztec human sacrifices after Cortes won the conquest, and based on the horror of the Spanish for such sacrifices, would doubt they happened.

And, any witnesses who had seen enough detail to supply the information you have passed on would have had to do it soon after the event, based on the wet conditions described for the cave. Probably no later than the 1500's, right? And, probably not very long after the conquest.

Now, that is a book I'd like to read! Of course, it would not be wise to share it, would it?

I want to repeat I was not casting doubt on the possibility you know where treasure is/was. Only the unsupported details not relevant to the existence of the treasure.

 

[Furness]

The problem with your knives would be proving there provenance to any museum, you would need photographs of the cave the other items that were found with them the skeletons anything to prove they are as old as you believe, the descendants of the Mexican Indians make and sell these to tourists on a dozen stalls near the great pyramid in Cholula, and I doubt anyone could show yours were any different to those, one piece of flaked obsidian looks pretty much like another,

 

[distribuidorUSA]

In 2004 I contacted an Athority on this subject (in Mexico).needles to say.just by looking at the pictures he noticed something you didn't.and that's the Calcite rust on the knives.and Cholulans can't fake that.again.my ONLY intention is to share this exiting in story.as far as I know the desendants of the original discoverer haven't pursued further diggings.maybe because they think there's nothing there,or it's plain dangerous.I'm more interested in the minerals of this region than in the treasure.this mountains have a staggering wealth of Gold, Silver.Copper etc.so we'll let the treasure be

 

[piegrande]

I hope I made it clear that I cannot dispute anything you say. Just the way you presented it was problematic.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Most of the treasure was found in the 1520s & taken on ships to the bottom of the ocean!

 

[piegrande]

That would tend to agree with the letters of Cortes. Also, apparently some was tossed in the lake during the last battle.

However, being skeptical by nature, I am not positive the total was known. Just imagining, suppose they had accumulated tons (not likely, I am imagining) they might have presented a relatively small percentage, which seemed large enough to Cortes that they assumed it was most that they had.

I do this when I travel with money in Mexico. I put an amount big enough to convince a robber that it is all I had. For example, 2,000 pesos in my billfold. Then, the main portion of the money, maybe total 18,000, is hidden much better.

The Aztecs were clever people, if a bit mentally ill with their religious sacrifices. And, if I can figure out to sacrifice a small amount to save a big amount, they could, too. That is why I do not assume all the treasure was in Tenochtitlan. I also take it for granted we will most likely never know. Another trip to the US, and still no MD. Just couldn't make it happen.

For those who don't live in Mexico, when doing construction one needs quantities of money of this order often.

So far, due to a totally unexpected ability to spot thieves in time to take evasive action, I have not been robbed even once. Part of my success is that I don't assume I cannot be robbed, thus am very careful what and who is around me. Excess confidence, just as in driving, can kill.

 

[piegrande]

It also helps that my clothes do not visibly indicate any serious amount of affluence.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hola pie, ya mean yer a raggedy arsed bum wearing old huaraches like me?

As for sacrifices, I have no idea how, but one of the documents on Tayopa states flatly _"180 cuerpos" in the main deposit.

Poisoned, or a voluntary type of suicide? One must remember that in that period it was considered an honor to give ones life in the service of the Jesuit Society.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Dont forget that the spanish took over the city & built on top of it .They worked hard & made the indians work as slaves for the next 100 yrs in the area to round up all the gold.....

 

[piegrande]

#30 Don Jose, one of the things I said to the other person was it helps if you can give some sort of source for statements, even if that is personal knowlege or observation. In your case, you refer to specific documents on Tayopa. As opposed to making totally unsupported statements, even though we cannot see those documents. A totally different viewpoint comes out.

"I saw" or, "I read" or "someone told me" has inherent tone of validity. Doesn't mean no possibility for error or malice, but there is an implication of validity. One wants to know more.

Off topic. I have been working in my wife's genealogy for several years. I looked at a village some distance away because I cannot find a man's death certificate in the obvious time period (based on things like birth certificates and marriage certificates which list him as living or not living) in the place he was presumed to be living.

In 1877, the municipio (corresponds to county, more or less) had 169 smallpox deaths, only one an adult. The first one was March 21. The last one was October 5. That county today has a population of only a few thousand. I haven't had time yet to see how many births a year they had which would put it into perspective for us. But, looking through back death certificates, it is apparent they had a smallpox epidemic every 3 to 5 years, and babies either died or gained lifetime immunity. Imagine those poor parents when up to 6 babies a day were dying!!

The county seat had the first death March 21. The town maybe 3 or 4 miles east didn't have one for two months. And, the town maybe 5 miles west, not for another 3 weeks. So, smallpox moved slowly in some cases. But, in the end, the county seat actually had fewer total deaths than the outlying towns.

I am trying to find which direction it came from, but it is so labor intensive to have to read hundreds of death certificates that it gets very tiresome. My guess is smallpox came in to Vera Cruz or another port from another country. But, it also may have come from the South, moving north from Central America. Note last smallpox death in Mexico was around 1950, just before the American vets came down to wipe out hoof and mouth disease in the animals.

By the way, death documents are from Family Search. org the Mormon genealogy page, in the Image collections. Open to the public everywhere.

On another epidemic issue, it has been assumed the diseases that decimated Mexico came from Europe. A doctor from Mexico City looked into two major epidemics that killed millions, in the 1500's. After extensive study, he concluded the symptoms recorded in the codices were not European, since no known European epidemic involved blood turning green, for example, and other differences.

After talking to the tree ring experts, he found the epidemics came in very rainy years, following long dry spells. His theory is the virus was Mexican, not European, and came from rats and fleas like the European epidemics. But, the rats stayed isolated in dry years, but came out and reproduced rapidly with rain. And, it was mosly indigenous people who got it, which may mean working with yukky stuff while the Spanish did not work with dirty stuff.

He wonders if such a virus is still out there somewhere waiting...

Sorry to wander, but to me to understand Mexican history, one may benefit from knowing everyday life in past times.

 

[urbantreasure]

Think the medical profession uses lasers today and surgical grade steel (cold rolled strip steel).

 

[urbantreasure]

The only parts that I find troubling is that almost every treasure story in any part of the world (especially those dealing with native, aboriginal people) claims that the secret location is booby trapped! It is interesting that archaeologists and other professionals never seem to encounter such booby traps in their excavations.

 

[urbantreasure]

Very well spoken, piegrande. You should be a writer, you certainly have the prose for it! No joke.

 

[urbantreasure]

I say it's good to be a man of the people!

 

[piegrande]

Very well spoken, piegrande. You should be a writer, you certainly have the prose for it! No joke.

Thank you for the nice words. I appreciate it very much.

 

[distribuidorUSA]

Mr Urbantreasure.archeologists haven't found booby trapped treassure because they haven't come across one were the Natives to to great lenghts to hide a great treasure.only a real big treasure would be worth the trouble.I have known of burial treasure wich are not booby trapped but they contain at the most a few objects.why we think is booby trapped?.well.inside caves you know when rocks that fell from the roof lay naturally in a caotic state. and you can notice when they are put in an orderly fasion.now the huge rocks inside this cave account for way more of what you would expect to find from natural erosion from the walls and roof.we even have an idea as to the methods they used to hold together the the big rocks (up to 10 tons)and hold them from caving in with smaller ones placed at key spots.you try to remove one or two of the small ones and that will be it.I will try mining this site before it is off limits by the Mexican goverment.that means not revealing details of its location.even tougth I have done it in some way.

 

[piegrande]

Think the medical profession uses lasers today and surgical grade steel (cold rolled strip steel).

I just did a search for companies which sell scalpels, and in a minute or two found obsidian scalpels, $78.50 each.

 

[gollum]

Who cares about scalpels? This is about Aztec Treasure.

I have read many books in my life, but I don't think any can beat Bernal Diaz del Castillo's "The True History of the Conquest of New Spain" (La Historia Verdadera de la Conquista de la Nueva España). I have read it three times, and each time can't put it down. I know a LOT about history. Even with as much reading as I have done, I can tell you that I had no idea of what Cortes and his men went through between 1519 and 1521. The book goes into intimate detail about the 119 attacks they endured 24 hours a day. The Aztecs threw 15,000 to 20,000 warriors at a time at the 200 or so Spaniards in three shifts for 24 hours a day. AMAZING!

Well........... in that book, Diaz talks about how when Cortez first entered Tenochtitlan in 1519 as a God, he remarks about how some buildings are sheathed in gold, and even the lowliest of peasants wear gold adornments. When he returned as a conqueror in 1520-21, most of this gold was gone. Cortes spent six weeks torturing Aztec captives only to find that it was sent North, towards Aztlan.

There are anecdotal tales from Colorado River Indians about a group of thousands of people from the South traveled North along the Colorado. A person I know found a burial cave with 26 mummies on the North Rim of the Grand Canyon in about 1981 (research Gordon Smith Ice Cave Mummies). I know there was a lot there, but I don't think that was the end of the trail. My best guess as to the location of Moctezuma's Treasure is that it is somewhere in the Uintah Reservation, and is being guarded by the Ute Indian Tribe.

Best - Mike