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Thread: Randy Bradfords Montezuma Presentation: The Video

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  1. #16
    us
    Manuel

    Dec 2012
    Strathmore Ca
    Whites DFX.
    148
    33 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Your leads are interesting Randy...I hope you're onto something.... my leads are not bad either... Wish you the best of lucks..

  2. #17

    Apr 2008
    102
    261 times
    it think one of the biggest errors i modern treasure hunting is the inability to think with the mindset of another time and place. it is a great error to apply modern logic to concepts that simply didnt exist. the gold posessed by the incas , the aztecs were not held for wealth or greed, but for chiefly religious reasons. the incas threw tons of gold into the depths of lakes, and the aztecs are on record as doing similar things to dispose of their ornaments.another concept hard for modern people to grasp is that of time and energy. i have a documented case of a mine here in mexico where the enslaved indegenious mine workers rebelled ,threw the owner into the mines deepest depths wit all of the extracted gold wrapped in cowhides and completely backfilled the mine. an effort that took six months to accomplish. i can list many other references.//// the article i mentioned earlier appears to be in a scientific journal that is published as well as a monthly magazine available to the public. i have not looked for the article as it will take a lot of time and thie subject is not of personal interest . they now have a website, the periodical is called arqueologia mexicana.

  3. #18

    Apr 2008
    102
    261 times
    I make these additional comments only with the desire to help people be successful in their search for treasure. So the following is the formula I go by and that of successful treasure hunters I have known. The first rule of treasure hunting is to verify that the treasure did in fact exist. If you cannot get first hand data to confirm that assumption you are wasting your time. The second rule of treasure hunting is to prove that the treasure has not been found. Once that has been proven then you begin with your hypothesis and develop a search plan. If you donít have funds for an adequate search, once again you are wasting your time. And then the difficult part, the recovery, legal control and disposition of the find. If you can verify that a treasure did exist you are one of the lucky ones. Thatís why 99% of the treasure finds are in the ocean. There was a shipping manifest. Ad 99% of land treasures are found by accident. Also there are many misconceptions as to the value and size of treasures. I see many comments as to tons of gold. First of all, a cubic foot of gold weighs over 1000 pounds. There were no vehicles able to support the tons of gold frequently reported. Some treasures report gold exceeding a countryís current national production. The gold extracted by the Aztecs was alluvial placer gold from rivers. The process was slow and the fine grains were stored in the hollow quills of feathers. The objective was for eash individual to fill up a quill per day. As there were many skills in their community there were a group of specialists that swam underwater to pull up sand bearing gold. All of this and production is recorded. Gold was desired as it was the color of the sun and consequently being the most malleable and ductile metal lent itself to the fabrication of religious ornaments. These were the reasons, not to buy a penthouse in Beverly Hills and a Ferrari. As Christopher Columbus himself stated, we have an illness here for which gold is the only cure,. Another misconception is the richness of mines, for my research the tons of gold frequently reported were tons of ore not tons of metal. There can be occasions where one hits spots in mines that produce many ounces per ton, but the average ore grade from records available from as early as the 1500ís indicate average values of grams per ton. Silver was an exception and 5 to 10 kilos per ton was not uncommon. The indigenous peoples of Latin America never mined hardrock gold or silver, only placer. The Spanish introduced hardrock mining. The Spanish werenít bad people nor were the Jesuits. Only doing what their governments and religions requested. In essence buying a stairway to heaven you could say. It is unfortunate but they were convinced that the indigenous people were sub human at least until Christianized. Our own acts and beliefs may be equally criticized some 500 years down the road, perhaps no justification but some understanding. The friars who wrote the reports to send back to Spain commented upon visiting certain mines the stench and difficulty of stepping over the corpses thrown outside the mine to gain entrance to the workings and the description of how humane Pissarro was when he gave orders to amputate the right hand and foot of all of the indigenous men to keep them at bay, and for the soldiers to impregnate the indigenous women, to begin to humanize the race and hence the origin of the mestizo people. We cannot make judgement for these actions based on modern morals and ethics, it would not be fair. And today we still live with atrocities that our own convictions seem to justify. So take these things into account in your searches and expectations. These are the results of my personal research and response to many of the disparities I seen in some of the commentaries. I also find it odd that so many of these treasures are in the commentators own back yard. If we accept these comments and follow these procedures the grim truth is there are very few realistic and viable treasure hunting possibilities. But what is better to make this realization or to spend your lifs energy following a pipe dream. I have found as one of the best sources for treasure leads are from church records and especially confessional declarations of wealthy ranchers and convicts.
    mdog likes this.

  4. #19

    Dec 2012
    on the rocks - so cal county line
    Gold bug pro / Whites coin master II
    1,175
    470 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    ilorphanannie ... have you personally seen any true pcs from the Aztec hoard found at any time ?
    Now that the dirty work is done all's that is left is the digging

  5. #20

    Apr 2008
    102
    261 times
    pictures no , the real thing in person ,yes. but from tomb findings done by mexican archeologists and at the anthropological museum. also farmers who have found pre columbian atrifacts on their property. when you say the aztec hoard im assuming you are refering to the one known by americans as moctezuma treasure , that i have not seen and noone else has either i think. the relato states they marched 43 days north on a known trail until they arrived at a great lake then marched 4 days due west into a canyon with a series of caves and peaks 7 caves and 7 peaks. which is at the head of a canyon and there are pre columbian ruins at the mouth. this is a document that is in posession of people and the museum i mentioned above and supposedly has been authenticated. that was the gist of the article and conclusions of the archeologists.

  6. #21
    mx
    May 2010
    864
    364 times
    LOA, good points. First, try to think as the people of that time would have thought. That is part of the reason I concluded it is just down the street.

    Military strategists who knew where their summer vacation home was, within two days travel, and knew there was a safe place to bury it without witnesses from the hostile tribe adjacent to them.

    As far as verifying the treasure existed, it was Bernal Diaz, whether or not he was really Cortes, who claimed to have seen nearly 20 tons of treasure, and that the Aztecs said it had mostly been retrieved from the Lake, which was the final link to my decision.

    Also, of all those places listed, my theory definitely has gold found on the premises, around 1910, per family witness. This was consistent with the use of the found gold for a church bell, by the photo which shows the church tower damaged in the same time period. Most of these places do not involve verified presence of gold.

    As far as proof this treasure was never found, the skeleton on top with the gold neck piece clearly was not moved in 400 years. So, it is unlikely whatever was underneath, if anything was, was moved for the same time period.

    I vacillate. At this time, I am back in It's Here mode. Next week, who knows?

    The most important point LOA made was it's property of Mexico. To even dig for it will almost certainly involve serious prison time. If you survive.

    I have not changed my mind at all on my belief they did not take the gold months away where it could never be retrieved. They kept that stuff close, even to leaving it in the house Cortes slept in.

    I am also tending to believe that different emperors had their own treasure. That would explain all the contradictions, including the possibility that some of the treasures were taken far away. Just not at the time they were dying in large numbers. You don't send out a major convoy of sick people to travel for months.

    I also believe it is possible that other tribes in the USA region had gold in quantities. Just not Moctezuma's gold.

    I realize Cortes and modern Americans use the name Montezuma. There is no reason to believe the tribes north of the border used anything but his correct name in the time period we are looking at. So, when someone says the Indians said it was Montezuma's gold, they negate their own word. In that time it wasn't even Moctezuma, that came later. It was a variety of things, including Motecuzoma among others. Never Montezuma.

    A warning on Ciudad Victoria. That is one of the most dangerous places in Tamaulipas in recent times. Buses shot up. People kidnapped. Illegals from further south held prisoner. (A bunch were freed in a recent week.) The bus from Mexico City my wife used to take passed through Cd. Victoria. Now, it goes by Monterrey. And, it is rumored her bus line pays so many pesos a bus trip for being left un-robbed.

    A Mexican truck driver told my SIL when he comes through Cd. Victoria, he stops somewhere and pays so much a truck load. If they do not, they don't make it to the border.

    Don't even think of going to Cd. Victoria.

  7. #22
    mx
    May 2010
    864
    364 times
    I did take time to watch the video. Interesting, but it was more like a potpourri of legends and seemed to have little to do with the issue of gold being here or not.

    Anything over about 10 minutes, I usually have to plan ahead. And, when I do that, even longer gets worked past.

    As Randy does, I suggest keeping gold in Mexico as a mental exercise and don't think of looking for it. Stay in the USA. I don't think Moctezuma's treasure is there, but they may well be treasure there. And, a lot of it.

  8. #23
    us
    Apr 2015
    Mesa
    fisher gemini 3
    208
    218 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Well done Randy. Don't forget Babcock says. "Chicomoztoc (the seven caves) is the legendary place from which the Aztec Indians believe they originally came. (...) It is generally believed that the Aztec were several tribes molded into one and living in Mexico. It is conceivable, according to what we know of Aztec legend, that each of the sibling tribes had been conceived in the womb of Mother Earth (a cave) and when each tribe was sufficiently developed and had boys, girls, moms, dads, warriors, priests, and a chief, the cave was opened and they were thrust into the world somewhere north of Mexico." Babcock Believed the "Rosalee letters" and his research put Chicomoztoc in the superstition mountains in Az. And according to descriptions in the Rosalee letters, Aztec artifacts (that match what was given to Cortez by Montezuma) were in the described cave.

  9. #24
    Charter Member

    Jun 2004
    288
    425 times
    Quote Originally Posted by lilorphanannie View Post
    pictures no , the real thing in person ,yes. but from tomb findings done by mexican archeologists and at the anthropological museum. also farmers who have found pre columbian atrifacts on their property. when you say the aztec hoard im assuming you are refering to the one known by americans as moctezuma treasure , that i have not seen and noone else has either i think. the relato states they marched 43 days north on a known trail until they arrived at a great lake then marched 4 days due west into a canyon with a series of caves and peaks 7 caves and 7 peaks. which is at the head of a canyon and there are pre columbian ruins at the mouth. this is a document that is in posession of people and the museum i mentioned above and supposedly has been authenticated. that was the gist of the article and conclusions of the archeologists.
    43 days North on a known trail could certainly put them pretty far North...if you figure 20 miles per day, on known roads this is pretty manageable, that's 860 miles. Kanab, UT is 1830 miles away. So the stated journey is a little less than half the proposed end spot (assuming Kanab is the end, my video clearly indicates anyone of a few dozen spots could be home to the loot).

    7 Caves and 7 Peaks would be consistent with the Aztec creation story and likewise consistent with what was being told in Johnson's Canyon by Freddie Crystal, though not necessarily consistent with the Three Lakes region.

    Known trails is consistent with my own theory that a party traveling would use known trade routes which would provide established areas for water, food and shelter while putting them in contact with trade-friendly tribes who could provide additional logistical support.

    The one thing I think of, it makes no sense for people to return from hiding a treasure because they become a liability in keeping it hidden. In this respect, if the party members never returned the idea of "2 moons North" or even something as specific as "43 days North" take on a new meaning. With no returning members to report there is no way to quantify how far they really went. It's just one of the missing details that make this such an interesting story, and one that is never likely to be solved.

    Randy
    captain1965 and piegrande like this.
    Presenting: Selections From the National Prospector's Gazette Volume 1: Exanimo Looks at Books
    ----------
    Randy Bradford's Buy, Sell and Trade List


    National Prospector's Gazette, Exanimo Express, Gene Ballinger Publications, 8 States Association, National Treasure Hunter's League, Gold Bug, Johnny Pounds "The Treasure Hunter," and so many more...

    Understanding our hobby, by embracing its history...

  10. #25
    Charter Member

    Jun 2004
    288
    425 times
    Quote Originally Posted by piegrande View Post
    I did take time to watch the video. Interesting, but it was more like a potpourri of legends and seemed to have little to do with the issue of gold being here or not.

    Anything over about 10 minutes, I usually have to plan ahead. And, when I do that, even longer gets worked past.

    As Randy does, I suggest keeping gold in Mexico as a mental exercise and don't think of looking for it. Stay in the USA. I don't think Moctezuma's treasure is there, but they may well be treasure there. And, a lot of it.
    piegrande, your assessment of my presentation is accurate. I start with the assumption that the treasure is true (and I think it's well established that it is) with the question being where did it go? My goal was to provide as many of the legends as I have recovered for consideration with as unbiased an approach as possible using obtainable written accounts as a foundation. This was never intended to answer the question about where the treasure ended up, but rather was meant as both a collection point for dying legends and a chance for others to ask themselves the question about where the treasure might be, what does the evidence suggest, and in light of the improbability of a treasure that size coming this far North, what could be interpreted or assumed to make that possibility more likely. The purpose was to present data for consideration, discussion and new lines of academic research. This was never meant to be as much of a "treasure story," as it was intended to be a collection and assessment of folklore.

    The upside to an approach like this is I don't get hung up much in bias. I'm not trying to prove that a treasure i haven't found is in one specific area. If I had an idea it would close my mind to so many other possibilities that are every bit as viable and worth consideration...even your own. The purpose here isn't to sell an idea, but to preserve part of the Southwest culture with minimal regards for its legitimacy. I'm not trying to prove anything, I'm trying to PRESERVE a great deal.

    I do appreciate your feedback and efforts to watch the video, I know it's not an undertaking lightly executed. I thoroughly enjoyed presenting my research, perhaps my sense of self-preservation in an academic sense should dictate I be less open mouthed about my work. For my part, it's not worth doing if I can’t share it and it's certainly not worth doing if its merits can't be discussed.

    I guess my question to you would be, how do you think the video could be better executed in terms of content, particularly given what I have said regarding my goals and motivations?

    Randy
    Presenting: Selections From the National Prospector's Gazette Volume 1: Exanimo Looks at Books
    ----------
    Randy Bradford's Buy, Sell and Trade List


    National Prospector's Gazette, Exanimo Express, Gene Ballinger Publications, 8 States Association, National Treasure Hunter's League, Gold Bug, Johnny Pounds "The Treasure Hunter," and so many more...

    Understanding our hobby, by embracing its history...

  11. #26
    Charter Member

    Jun 2004
    288
    425 times
    Quote Originally Posted by captain1965 View Post
    Well done Randy. Don't forget Babcock says. "Chicomoztoc (the seven caves) is the legendary place from which the Aztec Indians believe they originally came. (...) It is generally believed that the Aztec were several tribes molded into one and living in Mexico. It is conceivable, according to what we know of Aztec legend, that each of the sibling tribes had been conceived in the womb of Mother Earth (a cave) and when each tribe was sufficiently developed and had boys, girls, moms, dads, warriors, priests, and a chief, the cave was opened and they were thrust into the world somewhere north of Mexico." Babcock Believed the "Rosalee letters" and his research put Chicomoztoc in the superstition mountains in Az. And according to descriptions in the Rosalee letters, Aztec artifacts (that match what was given to Cortez by Montezuma) were in the described cave.
    I have to confess, running across someone else that's read Babcock's book is exciting. I was fortunate enough to get a copy directly from him some 15 years ago or so. Since then his son has republished the book and given it a second life of sorts, though I have no idea how many people have seen or read it in it's second printing. I was fortunate enough to find a copy at a used book store or I wouldn't even be aware it had been reprinted.

    Babcock did put SOME of the treasure in the Superstition Mountains (he's not the first to make that suggestion incidentally). Babcock believed the treasure was secured in 7 separate cache sites including one in California, Victorio Peak and a number of others that he thought were possible (don't have the book handy to refer back to). Really, his entire premise was built around the idea that the 7 caves legends corresponded with 7 cache sites that featured geographic similarities including double topped mountain peaks and a horseshoe shaped terrain feature.

    Babcock was at one time within driving distance of me though I've never made the drive. It would be interesting to see if he's still alive, still there and interested in a sit down. I bet he makes for a fascinating interview. I used to have his son on my Myspace friend list but haven’t used that in ages.

    Randy
    captain1965 likes this.
    Presenting: Selections From the National Prospector's Gazette Volume 1: Exanimo Looks at Books
    ----------
    Randy Bradford's Buy, Sell and Trade List


    National Prospector's Gazette, Exanimo Express, Gene Ballinger Publications, 8 States Association, National Treasure Hunter's League, Gold Bug, Johnny Pounds "The Treasure Hunter," and so many more...

    Understanding our hobby, by embracing its history...

  12. #27
    Charter Member

    Jun 2004
    288
    425 times
    Quote Originally Posted by distribuidorUSA View Post
    Your leads are interesting Randy...I hope you're onto something.... my leads are not bad either... Wish you the best of lucks..
    Would love to discuss your leads, my leads, any leads. Thanks for the kind response. Would love to hear more if you're interested in dialoguing on the topic.

    Randy
    Presenting: Selections From the National Prospector's Gazette Volume 1: Exanimo Looks at Books
    ----------
    Randy Bradford's Buy, Sell and Trade List


    National Prospector's Gazette, Exanimo Express, Gene Ballinger Publications, 8 States Association, National Treasure Hunter's League, Gold Bug, Johnny Pounds "The Treasure Hunter," and so many more...

    Understanding our hobby, by embracing its history...

  13. #28
    mx
    May 2010
    864
    364 times
    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Bradford View Post


    piegrande, your assessment of my presentation is accurate. I start with the assumption that the treasure is true (and I think it's well established that it is) with the question being where did it go? My goal was to provide as many of the legends as I have recovered for consideration with as unbiased an approach as possible using obtainable written accounts as a foundation. This was never intended to answer the question about where the treasure ended up, but rather was meant as both a collection point for dying legends and a chance for others to ask themselves the question about where the treasure might be, what does the evidence suggest, and in light of the improbability of a treasure that size coming this far North, what could be interpreted or assumed to make that possibility more likely. The purpose was to present data for consideration, discussion and new lines of academic research. This was never meant to be as much of a "treasure story," as it was intended to be a collection and assessment of folklore.

    The upside to an approach like this is I don't get hung up much in bias. I'm not trying to prove that a treasure i haven't found is in one specific area. If I had an idea it would close my mind to so many other possibilities that are every bit as viable and worth consideration...even your own. The purpose here isn't to sell an idea, but to preserve part of the Southwest culture with minimal regards for its legitimacy. I'm not trying to prove anything, I'm trying to PRESERVE a great deal.

    I do appreciate your feedback and efforts to watch the video, I know it's not an undertaking lightly executed. I thoroughly enjoyed presenting my research, perhaps my sense of self-preservation in an academic sense should dictate I be less open mouthed about my work. For my part, it's not worth doing if I can’t share it and it's certainly not worth doing if its merits can't be discussed.

    I guess my question to you would be, how do you think the video could be better executed in terms of content, particularly given what I have said regarding my goals and motivations?

    Randy
    I don't know if I have any suggestions or complaints about the video. You know the technical problems, which were not terminal in any way. You presented your summary of the legends, and with that in mind, I'd say you were successful.

    A reminder that for most of 30 years I did not take seriously the possibility that the treasure was here. Sort of a joke. Then, over the years as more date appeared, I finally concluded it really is here. At least three key bits of evidence changed my mind.

    1. The finding of gold over 100 years ago, in the form of a neckpiece on a skeleton dug up in that room.
    2. The photo which showed the damaged bell tower in the same time period of the stated discovery that was allegedly used to buy a new bell.
    3. The actual written report of the sighting of the treasure, by Bernal Diaz. Up until reading his book, I assumed the gold went in the lake.

    I do believe the other Emperor's had their own treasures, which may have caused confusion. But, the other legends never, as far as I can tell, actually involve finding gold. Only legends of having found gold.

  14. #29
    mx
    May 2010
    864
    364 times
    Cognitive dissonance means having made an important decision, you immediately start doubting your own wisdom in having made that decision.

    Years ago, when I took marketing in college, it was reported that most car brochures from the dealers are obtained AFTER the car is bought, trying to reassure themselves that they made the correct decision.

    So, for over thirty years, I from time to time accumulated more evidence, pro and con, on the treasure actually being here. A year or two ago, i realized I had eliminated all the inconsistencies in that theory. At that point in time, I felt absolutely 100% sure it is here, no doubts.

    Having said so publicly, I instantly developed cognitive dissonance. Convinced myself I was nuts and it wasn't possible. The facts didn't change; no inconsistencies developed. Classic cognitive dissonance.

  15. #30
    ca
    Sep 2005
    Paso Robles
    Teknetics G2
    250
    149 times
    You all are WAY off base, lot's of Talk but nothing to show. Fredrick Archibald Crystal lived a Long Life in Comfort in Mexico. DarrellClick image for larger version. 

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    Randy Bradford and kanabite like this.

 

 
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