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Highmountain
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cactusjumper said:
Likely you're correct Joe. Thanks for calling it to my attention.
Gracias,
Jack
Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture
- Thread starter Highmountain
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Likely you're correct Joe. Thanks for calling it to my attention.
Gracias,
Jack
Cubfan64
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Real de Tayopa said:Gentlemen: Sheehs, you both are beginning to sound like Oro or Djuicy.
While Cubber thinks along these lines, he is too much of a gentleman to express them (I suppose that is going to cost me 200 intense prayers)
Am I the ONLY Saint in here? Line up gals for yer heavenly benediction in the form of a juicy ---
Sorry oro, you are excluded, no smelly cowboy will ever touch my lips!
Don Jose de La Mancha (the holy one)
p.s. since my wings haven't regrown enough feathers for their last molt,I still need one of Jack's flying machines.
Real - I'll take that as a compliment (I think? :P).
I generally just sit back and stay quiet when personalities clash like this. I've broken that rule a few times in response to BB, and I always feel a little ashamed of myself afterwards for sinking to that level. Personally I've never been able to see the point in public "wars of words" - it's all full of sniping and little stabs and jabs back and forth - never seen it lead to anything productive and always thought it belonged in PM's, but what do I know
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Highmountain
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Cubfan64 said:Real de Tayopa said:Gentlemen: Sheehs, you both are beginning to sound like Oro or Djuicy.
While Cubber thinks along these lines, he is too much of a gentleman to express them (I suppose that is going to cost me 200 intense prayers)
Am I the ONLY Saint in here? Line up gals for yer heavenly benediction in the form of a juicy ---
Sorry oro, you are excluded, no smelly cowboy will ever touch my lips!
Don Jose de La Mancha (the holy one)
p.s. since my wings haven't regrown enough feathers for their last molt,I still need one of Jack's flying machines.
Real - I'll take that as a compliment (I think? :P).
I generally just sit back and stay quiet when personalities clash like this. I've broken that rule a few times in response to BB, and I always feel a little ashamed of myself afterwards for sinking to that level. Personally I've never been able to see the point in public "wars of words" - it's all full of sniping and little stabs and jabs back and forth - never seen it lead to anything productive and always thought it belonged in PM's, but what do I know
You're right Cubfan. That's the reason I apologized to the readers of the thread for the part I played in it a few posts ago. Thanks for the post. Feel free to put me on ignore if you think I'm perpetuating this thing, or if you simply agree with all the man's said here.
Jack
Cubfan64
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Highmountain said:Cubfan64 said:Real de Tayopa said:Gentlemen: Sheehs, you both are beginning to sound like Oro or Djuicy.
While Cubber thinks along these lines, he is too much of a gentleman to express them (I suppose that is going to cost me 200 intense prayers)
Am I the ONLY Saint in here? Line up gals for yer heavenly benediction in the form of a juicy ---
Sorry oro, you are excluded, no smelly cowboy will ever touch my lips!
Don Jose de La Mancha (the holy one)
p.s. since my wings haven't regrown enough feathers for their last molt,I still need one of Jack's flying machines.
Real - I'll take that as a compliment (I think? :P).
I generally just sit back and stay quiet when personalities clash like this. I've broken that rule a few times in response to BB, and I always feel a little ashamed of myself afterwards for sinking to that level. Personally I've never been able to see the point in public "wars of words" - it's all full of sniping and little stabs and jabs back and forth - never seen it lead to anything productive and always thought it belonged in PM's, but what do I know
You're right Cubfan. That's the reason I apologized to the readers of the thread for the part I played in it a few posts ago. Thanks for the post. Feel free to put me on ignore if you think I'm perpetuating this thing, or if you simply agree with all the man's said here.
Jack
HM - I'd honestly be surprised if I ever put anyone else on ignore other than the one I have (and the reasons behind that are more personal than anything else). I'm actually pretty good at just skipping over and/or ignoring posts that don't add much to the conversation.
I've always been one of those folks who rather than gripe and complain about something I find "offensive" on television, I just change the channel - seems so easy to me
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Highmountain
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Cubfan: Might be a good time to change channels then. I don't have any control over the posts your friend makes.
Jack
Jack
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Highmountain
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Jose: If you're serious about the Air Scooter or something similar for your purposes [which I strongly doubt] there are some easy, fairly light and probably workable additions to the airframe that might go a long way to solving the wind currents problem. It's something you'd have to try out on remote-controlled models of the sort discussed on this thread:
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,41787.0.html [note the post made by the guy using helicopters as opposed to fixed wing] I can't think of any way to make the concepts apply to a fixed wing.
Most of them are implied in some of the posts above and I'd guess you can figure them out for yourself if you're interested, but if you want to email me sometime feel free to do it. I might be a while responding because I'll be offline for some while soon, but you're evidently in no rush in any case.
Jack
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,41787.0.html [note the post made by the guy using helicopters as opposed to fixed wing] I can't think of any way to make the concepts apply to a fixed wing.
Most of them are implied in some of the posts above and I'd guess you can figure them out for yourself if you're interested, but if you want to email me sometime feel free to do it. I might be a while responding because I'll be offline for some while soon, but you're evidently in no rush in any case.
Jack
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
JACK:WILCO, mission occomplished. Not as much fun, but i tmay just do the job.
Don Jose de La Mancha
Don Jose de La Mancha
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Highmountain
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Real de Tayopa said:
Done deal. Good luck
J
somehiker
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Esteban de Azemmour
About thirty five years ago my grandfather gave me a volume of native stories and legends, which he had purchased in the early fifties,from a shop at the Grand Canyon, during travels in the southwest.I've since then lost the book,having loaned it to a native co-worker who moved away.Two of the stories have remained with me though,one because of it's reference to a black katsinam whom the Hopi had imprisoned,but through trickery had escaped.The other because of it's title,"The Screaming Man",and which related a White Mountain or Tonto Apache legend of a very tall black man who was captured and was ordered by the shaman to be skinned alive in order to release the sun,which he had swallowed.I wonder if those two tales refer to Esteban and offer clues to why his body was not recovered. I have been searching,off and on,for another copy of this book.I believe that it was published sometime in the 1930's and contained a few illustrations.So far I haven't had much luck in locating it but perhaps someone here will recognize the stories (they might be off a bit) and has a copy in their collection.
Regards:SH.
About thirty five years ago my grandfather gave me a volume of native stories and legends, which he had purchased in the early fifties,from a shop at the Grand Canyon, during travels in the southwest.I've since then lost the book,having loaned it to a native co-worker who moved away.Two of the stories have remained with me though,one because of it's reference to a black katsinam whom the Hopi had imprisoned,but through trickery had escaped.The other because of it's title,"The Screaming Man",and which related a White Mountain or Tonto Apache legend of a very tall black man who was captured and was ordered by the shaman to be skinned alive in order to release the sun,which he had swallowed.I wonder if those two tales refer to Esteban and offer clues to why his body was not recovered. I have been searching,off and on,for another copy of this book.I believe that it was published sometime in the 1930's and contained a few illustrations.So far I haven't had much luck in locating it but perhaps someone here will recognize the stories (they might be off a bit) and has a copy in their collection.
Regards:SH.
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somehiker
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Another Zuni Legend:
This one contains a couple of interesting passages.
Who do you suppose the "summer" people might be,who went to live in a land far away,where there was no winter and plenty to eat,who followed the Macaw.
Regards:SH.
ORIGIN OF THE RAVEN AND THE MACAW
A Zuni Legend
The priest who was named Yanauluha carried ever in his hand a staff which now in the daylight was plumed and covered with feathers - yellow, blue- green, red, white, black, and varied.
Attached to it were shells, which made a song-like tinkle. The people when they saw it stretched out their hands and asked many questions.
Then the priest balanced it in his hand, and struck with it a hard place, and blew upon it. Amid the plumes appeared four round things-mere eggs they were. Two were blue like the sky and two dun-red like the flesh of the Earth- mother.
Then the people asked many questions.,
"These," said the priests, "are the seed of living beings. Choose which ye will follow. From two eggs shall come beings of beautiful plumage, colored like the grass and fruits of summer. Where they fly and ye follow, shall always be summer. Without toil, fields of food shall flourish. And from the other two eggs shall come evil beings, piebald, with white, without colors. And where these two shall fly and ye shall follow, winter strives with summer. Only by labor shall the fields yield fruit, and your children and theirs shall strive for the fruits. Which do ye choose?"
"The blue! The blue!" cried the people, and those who were strongest carried off the blue eggs, leaving the red eggs to those who waited. They laid the blue eggs with much gentleness in soft sand on the sunny side of a hill, watching day by day. They were precious of color; surely they would be the precious birds of the Summer-land. Then the eggs cracked and the birds came out, with open eyes and pin feathers under their skins.
"We chose wisely," said the people. "Yellow and blue, red and green, are their dresses, even seen through their skins." So they fed them freely of all the foods which men favor. Thus they taught them to eat all desirable food. But when the feathers appeared, they were black with white bandings. They were ravens. And they flew away croaking hoarse laughs and mocking our fathers.
But the other eggs became beautiful macaws, and were wafted by a toss of the priest's wand to the faraway Summer-land.
So those who had chosen the raven, became the Raven People. They were the Winter People and they were many and strong. But those who had chosen the macaw, became the Macaw People. They were the Summer People, and few in number, and less strong, but they were wiser because they were more deliberate. The priest Yanauluha, being wise, became their father, even as the Sun-father is among the little moons of the sky. He and his sisters were the ancestors of the priest-keepers of things.
This one contains a couple of interesting passages.
Who do you suppose the "summer" people might be,who went to live in a land far away,where there was no winter and plenty to eat,who followed the Macaw.
Regards:SH.
ORIGIN OF THE RAVEN AND THE MACAW
A Zuni Legend
The priest who was named Yanauluha carried ever in his hand a staff which now in the daylight was plumed and covered with feathers - yellow, blue- green, red, white, black, and varied.
Attached to it were shells, which made a song-like tinkle. The people when they saw it stretched out their hands and asked many questions.
Then the priest balanced it in his hand, and struck with it a hard place, and blew upon it. Amid the plumes appeared four round things-mere eggs they were. Two were blue like the sky and two dun-red like the flesh of the Earth- mother.
Then the people asked many questions.,
"These," said the priests, "are the seed of living beings. Choose which ye will follow. From two eggs shall come beings of beautiful plumage, colored like the grass and fruits of summer. Where they fly and ye follow, shall always be summer. Without toil, fields of food shall flourish. And from the other two eggs shall come evil beings, piebald, with white, without colors. And where these two shall fly and ye shall follow, winter strives with summer. Only by labor shall the fields yield fruit, and your children and theirs shall strive for the fruits. Which do ye choose?"
"The blue! The blue!" cried the people, and those who were strongest carried off the blue eggs, leaving the red eggs to those who waited. They laid the blue eggs with much gentleness in soft sand on the sunny side of a hill, watching day by day. They were precious of color; surely they would be the precious birds of the Summer-land. Then the eggs cracked and the birds came out, with open eyes and pin feathers under their skins.
"We chose wisely," said the people. "Yellow and blue, red and green, are their dresses, even seen through their skins." So they fed them freely of all the foods which men favor. Thus they taught them to eat all desirable food. But when the feathers appeared, they were black with white bandings. They were ravens. And they flew away croaking hoarse laughs and mocking our fathers.
But the other eggs became beautiful macaws, and were wafted by a toss of the priest's wand to the faraway Summer-land.
So those who had chosen the raven, became the Raven People. They were the Winter People and they were many and strong. But those who had chosen the macaw, became the Macaw People. They were the Summer People, and few in number, and less strong, but they were wiser because they were more deliberate. The priest Yanauluha, being wise, became their father, even as the Sun-father is among the little moons of the sky. He and his sisters were the ancestors of the priest-keepers of things.
somehiker
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Another,and when told by an elder,hilarious I'll bet 
THE WELL-BAKED MAN
A Pima Legend
The creation of the white man is depicted here, as in many other tales, as one of the Creator's slight mistakes.
The Magician had made the world but felt that something was missing. "What could it be?" he thought. "What could be missing?" Then it came to him that what he wanted on this earth was some beings like himself, not just animals. "How will I make them?" he thought. First he built himself a horno, an oven. Then he took some clay and formed it into a shape like himself.
Now, Coyote was hanging around the way he usually does, and when Magician, who was Man Maker, was off gathering firewood, Coyote quickly changed the shape of the clay image. Man Maker built a fire inside the horno, then put the image in without looking at it closely.
After a while the Magician said: "He must be ready now." He took the image and breathed on it, whereupon it came to life. "Why don't you stand up?" said Man Maker. "What's wrong with you?" The creature barked and wagged it's tail. "Ah, oh my, Coyote has tricked me," he said. "Coyote changed my being into an animal like himself."
"Coyote said, "Well, what's wrong with it? Why can't I have a pretty creature that pleases me?"
"Oh my, well, all right, but don't interfere again." That's why we have the dog; it was Coyote's doing.
So Man Maker tried again. "They should be companions to each other," he thought. "I shouldn't make just one." He shaped some humans who were rather like himself and identical with each other in every part.
"What's wrong here?" Man Maker was thinking. Then he saw. "Oh my, that won't do. How can they increase?" So he pulled a little between the legs of one image, saying: "Ah, that's much better." With his fingernail he made a crack in the other image. He put some pleasant feeling in them somewhere. "Ah, now it's good. Now they'll be able to do all the necessary things." He put them in the horno to bake.
"They're done now," Coyote told him. So Man Maker took them out and made them come to life.
"Oh my, what's wrong?" he said. "They're underdone; they're not brown enough. They don't belong here--they belong across the water someplace." He scowled at Coyote. "Why did you tell me they were done? I can't use them here."
So the Magician tried again, making a pair like the last one and placing them in the oven. After a while he said: "I think they're ready now."
"No, they aren't done yet," said Coyote. "You don't want them to come out too light again; leave them in a little longer."
"Well, all right," replied Man Maker. They waited, and then he took them out. "Oh my. What's wrong? These are overdone. They're burned too dark." He put them aside. "Maybe I can use them some other place across the water. They don't belong here."
For the fourth time Man Maker placed his images inside the oven. "Now, don't interfere," he said to Coyote, "you give me bad advice. Leave me alone."
This time the Magician did not listen to Coyote, but took them out when he himself though they were done. He made them come to life, and the two beings walked around, talked, laughed, and behaved in a seemly fashion. They were neither underdone nor overdone.
"These are exactly right," said Man Maker. "These really belong here; these I will use. They are beautiful." So that's why we have the Pueblo Indians.
THE WELL-BAKED MAN
A Pima Legend
The creation of the white man is depicted here, as in many other tales, as one of the Creator's slight mistakes.
The Magician had made the world but felt that something was missing. "What could it be?" he thought. "What could be missing?" Then it came to him that what he wanted on this earth was some beings like himself, not just animals. "How will I make them?" he thought. First he built himself a horno, an oven. Then he took some clay and formed it into a shape like himself.
Now, Coyote was hanging around the way he usually does, and when Magician, who was Man Maker, was off gathering firewood, Coyote quickly changed the shape of the clay image. Man Maker built a fire inside the horno, then put the image in without looking at it closely.
After a while the Magician said: "He must be ready now." He took the image and breathed on it, whereupon it came to life. "Why don't you stand up?" said Man Maker. "What's wrong with you?" The creature barked and wagged it's tail. "Ah, oh my, Coyote has tricked me," he said. "Coyote changed my being into an animal like himself."
"Coyote said, "Well, what's wrong with it? Why can't I have a pretty creature that pleases me?"
"Oh my, well, all right, but don't interfere again." That's why we have the dog; it was Coyote's doing.
So Man Maker tried again. "They should be companions to each other," he thought. "I shouldn't make just one." He shaped some humans who were rather like himself and identical with each other in every part.
"What's wrong here?" Man Maker was thinking. Then he saw. "Oh my, that won't do. How can they increase?" So he pulled a little between the legs of one image, saying: "Ah, that's much better." With his fingernail he made a crack in the other image. He put some pleasant feeling in them somewhere. "Ah, now it's good. Now they'll be able to do all the necessary things." He put them in the horno to bake.
"They're done now," Coyote told him. So Man Maker took them out and made them come to life.
"Oh my, what's wrong?" he said. "They're underdone; they're not brown enough. They don't belong here--they belong across the water someplace." He scowled at Coyote. "Why did you tell me they were done? I can't use them here."
So the Magician tried again, making a pair like the last one and placing them in the oven. After a while he said: "I think they're ready now."
"No, they aren't done yet," said Coyote. "You don't want them to come out too light again; leave them in a little longer."
"Well, all right," replied Man Maker. They waited, and then he took them out. "Oh my. What's wrong? These are overdone. They're burned too dark." He put them aside. "Maybe I can use them some other place across the water. They don't belong here."
For the fourth time Man Maker placed his images inside the oven. "Now, don't interfere," he said to Coyote, "you give me bad advice. Leave me alone."
This time the Magician did not listen to Coyote, but took them out when he himself though they were done. He made them come to life, and the two beings walked around, talked, laughed, and behaved in a seemly fashion. They were neither underdone nor overdone.
"These are exactly right," said Man Maker. "These really belong here; these I will use. They are beautiful." So that's why we have the Pueblo Indians.
somehiker
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Just a photo that I shot back in May while hiking within the Superstitions.Spotted on a canyon wall about 5-600 ft above the canyon floor that may have been the site of a substantial village at one time.There are at least two mines in the vicinity as well as year round water.I spotted this thru binocs,and took the pic at 6x zoom.Other possible symbols and markings can be seen as well.The image on the rock would be approx 30 ft in height and has a flatter area in front of it.Can only be seen by climbing up about 200 ft.It might very well be a natural thing,but more recent studies are beginning to make me wonder.
Regards:SH.
Regards:SH.
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somehiker
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Addendum:
I might point out the pile of objects depicted at the figure's feet.I suspect that all of this was originally painted in full color,but today only what was the denser and darker pigments remain.This rockface has never seen direct sunlight,probably a factor in this art's longevity and current visibility.It may have been visible from a larger mound found below the one from which I took this photo, and would have made an inspiring sight if illuminated by torchlight at night.
---conjecture perhaps,on my part,but who knows?
It was a single pottery shard,that I at first thought was just a interesting rock sample,much different than ones normally found,and very far from home according to my studies,that prompted me to return to this canyon for another look around.I am glad that I did so,and I may post a couple of other pics later,when I have had the time to do more research on the objects within these photos and what relationship they may have,if any, to all of this conjecture on my part.
Regards:SH.
I might point out the pile of objects depicted at the figure's feet.I suspect that all of this was originally painted in full color,but today only what was the denser and darker pigments remain.This rockface has never seen direct sunlight,probably a factor in this art's longevity and current visibility.It may have been visible from a larger mound found below the one from which I took this photo, and would have made an inspiring sight if illuminated by torchlight at night.
---conjecture perhaps,on my part,but who knows?
It was a single pottery shard,that I at first thought was just a interesting rock sample,much different than ones normally found,and very far from home according to my studies,that prompted me to return to this canyon for another look around.I am glad that I did so,and I may post a couple of other pics later,when I have had the time to do more research on the objects within these photos and what relationship they may have,if any, to all of this conjecture on my part.
Regards:SH.
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
OHIO Some Hiker: Somehow I missed your wonderful posts. I love them, keep them coming.They are going into my personal files.
In your picture, while it isn't clear, I aqree, the lower right one is man made.
Don Jose de La Mancha
In your picture, while it isn't clear, I aqree, the lower right one is man made.
Don Jose de La Mancha
somehiker
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Hi Real;
And....directly beneath the figure?
Could be a cave with a flat area in front.
If so....within the cave?
Some answers perhaps.
Or more questions?--but I will have to make the climb up there to find out.
Regards:SH.
btw
ne question that research answered today----What would be the reason that a one inch piece of iron pyrite,collected as a mineral sample just below,would have one side polished to a flat,mirror-like finish? A mosaic mirror made from polished pyrite was found in a Mayan tomb.This piece appears to be polished on two adjacent sides.So far,I have been unable to find any reference to the use of pyrite by any other culture.
And....directly beneath the figure?
Could be a cave with a flat area in front.
If so....within the cave?
Some answers perhaps.
Or more questions?--but I will have to make the climb up there to find out.
Regards:SH.
btw
ne question that research answered today----What would be the reason that a one inch piece of iron pyrite,collected as a mineral sample just below,would have one side polished to a flat,mirror-like finish? A mosaic mirror made from polished pyrite was found in a Mayan tomb.This piece appears to be polished on two adjacent sides.So far,I have been unable to find any reference to the use of pyrite by any other culture.Attachments
cptbild
Sr. Member
Hay! Guys!
I thought that it was a proven, scientific FACT!
That the Aztecs came down from the NORTH!
Like!
Western Utah's....Piute Country
'cause ! They were back up there, many times, mining Turquoise !
In Eastern CA's Mojave Desert Country
& That IS! SCIENTIC FAct!
HUH!
I thought that it was a proven, scientific FACT!
That the Aztecs came down from the NORTH!
Like!
Western Utah's....Piute Country
'cause ! They were back up there, many times, mining Turquoise !
In Eastern CA's Mojave Desert Country
& That IS! SCIENTIC FAct!
HUH!
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Geeze Cpt BILL: You still can't spell T A Y O P A , yet, you now deny that they came from Atlantis / Azatlan hehehehh
Of course it is quite probable that they mined turq. later---.
How are you doing? Taking good care of our bugs?
My coffe date still on, IF we ever get our schedules to co-incide?
Don Jose de La Mancha
p.s a bit of ear scratching and tugging for bugs. ( I am always nice to the possessor of big teeth) hrhrhr
Of course it is quite probable that they mined turq. later---.
How are you doing? Taking good care of our bugs?
My coffe date still on, IF we ever get our schedules to co-incide?
Don Jose de La Mancha
p.s a bit of ear scratching and tugging for bugs. ( I am always nice to the possessor of big teeth) hrhrhr
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
HIO HIKER mi buddy: It can be caused if it was in a sheer zone/faulting.. Sometimes things can end up as substitute mirrors. Nature is fantastic.
Don JHose de La Mancha
Don JHose de La Mancha
somehiker
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Certainly possible Real.The area is part of a major fault according to the USGS survey map.I have examined it with a loupe and can find no evidence that this piece was cemented in place as part of a mosaic.It may have just been a novelty to someone at one time,who may have liked the way that it sparkled in the sunlight.
It's only a curiosity to me because of the location where it was found and the absence of other pyrite samples.Lots of pottery shards and quartz samples,though.
Regards:SH.
It's only a curiosity to me because of the location where it was found and the absence of other pyrite samples.Lots of pottery shards and quartz samples,though.
Regards:SH.
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Hiker: sounds good to me my friend, go go
Don Jose de La Mancha
Don Jose de La Mancha
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