Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

[Highmountain]

....Assuming you're finished looking at that pic I'm going to take it down so's it mightn't show up all the other possible places it might

Ooops! Picture's gone - sorry I missed the party.

The only rough-cast ingots I've heard described that I know existed (1930's) were 24" long and cast in sand molds with yucca sticks used as the molds. The half-moon cross-sections (rounded bottoms and flat tops) were a couple inches thick and weighed about 60 pounds per full bar. One was used as a door-stop/conversation piece at a barber shop in Silver City in those days. Didn't see it myself, but have talked to a couple old-timers who did.

That sounds like the kind of detail Oro was looking for. Dunno though. Haven't seen any posts from him since I posted what I did. I was waiting to take it down until I was sure he got it. That was late last night and I thought he might have gone to bed while I was posting.

 

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[cactusjumper]

Jack,

If you thought you might be posting too much, why not just post a close-up picture of the ingots? That was, after all, what Roy was interested in seeing. That's also what I would like to see up close, along with a close, clear picture of this:

Take care,

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

cj dont know jack jack ....lol

 

[cactusjumper]

bb,

What I do know, is what the Deity being depicted is and it's purpose. As a Shaman, you should be able to recognize it as well. Why don't you explain what we are looking at? It will also be a nice test of your Internet skills.

That should keep you occupied for awhile.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Highmountain]

Jack,

If you thought you might be posting too much, why not just post a close-up picture of the ingots? That was, after all, what Roy was interested in seeing. That's also what I would like to see up close, along with a close, clear picture of this:

Take care,

Joe

Joe:

The pic was taken from a helicopter. I don't have close-ups. If I want to see that from the ground, which I'm not much motivated to do because it would most likely get me shot by looters, I'd have to have a lot more motivation than just seeing it. I'll look at it all after they finish carrying everything off and aren't so prone to kill curiosity seekers as they might be now. If the USFS caught me near the place they'd probably accuse me of looting and haul me off to the slammer.

The site's not too far from where I think these folk were getting their gold. It's my hope there's still enough left raw and legal to put new tires on the truck.

I know it irritates you something awful other people can't take as good pictures as you, but I've given the best I've got.

But the more likely probability is you simply don't believe the pic is authentic. I don't have a problem with that. A person would be a fool to believe much of what gets posted on the treasure hunting sections, and if you happen to be a fool, it's probably not that sort of one.

Being believed by the users here isn't one of my priorities.

Thanks for the advice.

Jack

 

[Highmountain]

bb,

What I do know, is what the Deity being depicted is and it's purpose. As a Shaman, you should be able to recognize it as well. Why don't you explain what we are looking at? It will also be a nice test of your Internet skills.

That should keep you occupied for awhile.

Joe Ribaudo

BB: Even though they're ragging you pretty hard [seems you brought some of it on yourself by missing an appointment, lying about a location and other sins] I think you'd be well advised to cultivate yourself here. They hold your shamanism claims against you, but they do believe in Atlantis and plenty of other 'outside the fences' approaches to knowing, which [not putting too fine a point on it] puts you among your own kind.

None of my business, but I thought I'd throw it into the 'unwanted advice' basket with the rest of what's in there

 

[the blindbowman]

bb,

What I do know, is what the Deity being depicted is and it's purpose. As a Shaman, you should be able to recognize it as well. Why don't you explain what we are looking at? It will also be a nice test of your Internet skills.

That should keep you occupied for awhile.

Joe Ribaudo

talk about skills . wasnt that you that was selling all those indain stuff on Ebay ...lol you must be the bigest loser at this site ... you try anything you can to stop anyone from finding anyhing because they would show you up ,,,LOL

how sad it is to see a 60 year old man act the way you do ...

 

[Old Dog]

The really sad thing to see is a fine thread go bad,
simply because the blindblowman has to stick his brand of rhetoric into a perfectly good conversation.

One that all involved with were enjoying until he came along.

As far as photos go BB the cameras now days have a feature called auto focus.
They do it automatically... If you let them.

They kind of eliminate the excuses

Go get some real facts and then come back and JOIN the conversation.
Don't come in and try to dominate it.

Stop berating anyone who asks a question you don't want to ... or can't answer
You aren't the only bulb in the box and you aren't the brightest here.

get over it.

 

[cactusjumper]

Jack,

I don't think it's to much to ask a Shaman who's had a conversation with Moctezuma, to tell us what is depicted in your photo. Once you make personal contact with a dead man, everything else is a walk in the park.

The reason for posting a picture, is to provide a visual aid in telling a story. If I am telling a story about a white cat in a blizzard and show a blank white page, I might as well just let my words tell the story. IMHO, pictures like bb's, only divert attention away from the message he is trying to deliver and create doubt about the entire story.

I am looking at the overall picture that bb has presented on this site......and others, to make my own judgements as to the truth of his many, many claims. Others, like yourself, will make your own judgements about the man. All of us have a history on these forums. Even though some will go back and delete those posts, the history remains in the memories of the members.

The picture you have superimposed on your own photograph is of a solar deity. It is posed in the act of childbirth, but something else is being born. In the surroundings you have described, it seems out of place.

Instead of letting the looting continue, the site should be reported to the proper authorities. Without that, it will absolutely be destroyed.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

bb,

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: cactusjumper on Today at 05:49:28 PM
bb,

What I do know, is what the Deity being depicted is and it's purpose. As a Shaman, you should be able to recognize it as well. Why don't you explain what we are looking at? It will also be a nice test of your Internet skills.

That should keep you occupied for awhile.

Joe Ribaudo


talk about skills . wasnt that you that was selling all those indain stuff on Ebay ...lol you must be the bigest loser at this site ... you try anything you can to stop anyone from finding anyhing because they would show you up ,,,LOL

how sad it is to see a 60 year old man act the way you do ...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hard to find the answer on the Internet?

I have never sold anything on eBay. I am not the "biggest loser at this site". I believe you might hold that distinction. No one can "stop anyone from finding anything" by posting on this site. If someone does, the person trying to do the finding is a complete idiot.

In closing, I am 63 and just posted that a few posts ago.

Thank you for doing your best to respond to my post. For you.......it was a brilliant effort.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Highmountain]

Jack,

I don't think it's to much to ask a Shaman who's had a conversation with Moctezuma, to tell us what is depicted in your photo. Once you make personal contact with a dead man, everything else is a walk in the park.

The reason for posting a picture, is to provide a visual aid in telling a story. If I am telling a story about a white cat in a blizzard and show a blank white page, I might as well just let my words tell the story. IMHO, pictures like bb's, only divert attention away from the message he is trying to deliver and create doubt about the entire story.

I am looking at the overall picture that bb has presented on this site......and others, to make my own judgements as to the truth of his many, many claims. Others, like yourself, will make your own judgements about the man. All of us have a history on these forums. Even though some will go back and delete those posts, the history remains in the memories of the members.

The picture you have superimposed on your own photograph is of a solar deity. It is posed in the act of childbirth, but something else is being born. In the surroundings you have described, it seems out of place.

Instead of letting the looting continue, the site should be reported to the proper authorities. Without that, it will absolutely be destroyed.

Take care,

Joe

Not my affair, Joe. The people doing this have plenty of financial backing. Look at the way they're doing it. Might be an army unit, might be the government, might be a super-wealthy person, might be the people hired to protect it.

I didn't create this situation and it isn't my business to make judgements about whether it ought to continue or not.

Reporting it would, [or might] change the identities of the people looting it, but it wouldn't be much different than a presidential election. When the dust settled it would all be the same.

 

[cactusjumper]

Jack,

As long as people refuse to get involved, the dust will never settle.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Highmountain]

Jack,

As long as people refuse to get involved, the dust will never settle.

Take care,

Joe

Whether it settles or doesn't isn't my affair. It's higher than my paygrade. If I'd discovered that site before the looters and tried to cut a deal with the government to get a new set of tires out of the deal for having found it they'd pat me on the butt and send me on their way [once they knew where it is] without a nickle. While they commenced doing exactly what's being done and every worker on the site filling his pockets as he worked.

I don't have any responsibility for that site. I don't care who those guys are so long as they don't shoot me or one of my friends.

But having said that, I do believe what they're carrying away is Cibola and probably the last enclave of the Aztec, all in one fell swoop.

Too bad. Breaks of the game.

Edit: I smilingly like to think it's Green Cards sending it back to Mexico for its final resting place. They don't get searched going across the border in that direction so maybe it will end up in the originally intended destination without any interference from anyone, though a bit late getting there. The irony of that has some appeal for me.

 

[the blindbowman]

bb,

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: cactusjumper on Today at 05:49:28 PM
bb,

What I do know, is what the Deity being depicted is and it's purpose. As a Shaman, you should be able to recognize it as well. Why don't you explain what we are looking at? It will also be a nice test of your Internet skills.

That should keep you occupied for awhile.

Joe Ribaudo


talk about skills . wasnt that you that was selling all those indain stuff on Ebay ...lol you must be the bigest loser at this site ... you try anything you can to stop anyone from finding anyhing because they would show you up ,,,LOL

how sad it is to see a 60 year old man act the way you do ...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hard to find the answer on the Internet?

I have never sold anything on eBay. I am not the "biggest loser at this site". I believe you might hold that distinction. No one can "stop anyone from finding anything" by posting on this site. If someone does, the person trying to do the finding is a complete idiot.

In closing, I am 63 and just posted that a few posts ago.

Thank you for doing your best to respond to my post. For you.......it was a brilliant effort.

Joe Ribaudo

at 63 you think they would have senor citizen's treasure hunting club for ya ...lol next happy birthday ,,,dont worry, i got a reply in the works my friend , it dosent have anything to do with treasure hunting ....lol

sorry i dont dance to the old man's drum ....lol

good hunting old guy, i got some work to do on the farm and dont have as much time as i had to check out the site or go treasure hunting so you get out there and seek all you want ....

saty safe stay free

 

[Highmountain]

at 63 you think they would have senor citizen's treasure hunting club for ya ...lol next happy birthday ,,,dont worry, i got a reply in the works my friend , it dosent have anything to do with treasure hunting ....lol

sorry i dont dance to the old man's drum ....lol


saty safe stay free

BB: I've had a lot of respect for all the authentic shamans I've ever come across. They had enough self-respect and confidence so's they'd never involve themselves in petty bickering and name calling and they conducted themselves with dignity that commanded respect, so they got it.

But then, most of them were older men.

Good luck mining your farm.

 

[cactusjumper]

Jack,

Metztli seems out of place in that location. Without a close-up picture of the carving, It could be another deity.
If it's Aztec, it deserves protection.......even if you don't get new tires.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Highmountain]

Jack,

Metztli seems out of place in that location. Without a close-up picture of the carving, It could be another deity.
If it's Aztec, it deserves protection.......even if you don't get new tires.

Take care,

Joe

Joe:

Easy enough for you to moralize about how I ought to conduct my affairs sitting where you are. And there's no way you can second-guess what you'd do in my position. Nobody much besides me cares about my tires, which sort of puts me in the unique position of having to worry about them myself.

If those are Aztec relics hopefully the folks carrying them off will at least get a set of tires out of it. They wouldn't if they'd tried to do the 'right' thing by your standards. The relics would be just sitting there without anybody knowing they were there, same as if they weren't there. Which they won't be when those folks finish. It all equals out in the long run.

I don't think you're going to see a lot of treasure hunters on here chiming in to say THers ought to rat out other THers when they're onto a good thing. And I suspect if you were in my shoes you'd be trying to find a way you could squeeze your way up to the feed-trough for some of it instead of trying to think of someone to report it to. Unless you're already a wealthy man.

I'm not collaborating with the forces of darkness, but I can say in complete honesty I'm not snuffling up to the trough. I'll never be a part of looting that site. If that ain't good enough to suit the universe I'll just have to live with being a regular joe instead of a cop, a preacher, or a vandal with or without a PHD.

Sorry I picked the wrong diety to superimpose on my pic. I never claimed to be an Aztec expert.

Jack

 

[Cubfan64]

You've sure posted some fascinating photos HM!

I understand where CJ is coming from regarding whatever artifacts (if any) are being taken from the site you have views of. That said, I mentioned once before that I may be pretty certain what I would do if I found myself in a situation such as yours, but I'm not, so you have to do what you have to do and live with, and it sounds like you are and can.

Lately I find myself thinking quite often about the whole world of archeology, treasure hunting, illegal artifact recovering, etc... and I have such mixed emotions. I know this is off topic a bit, but hopefully you'll give me a little slack and let me express my thoughts.

One of the biggest drawbacks to illegal artifact recoveries is the loss of knowledge that could come from trained professionals and scholars studying the items "in situ" so to speak. Volumes of information are gathered before the first artifact actually is removed and cataloged - in fact, I believe that from an archeological standpoint, the artifacts themselves are worth far less than the stories they can tell about those who made them, used them, discarded them, etc... It's sad to know that there is a disregard for that knowledge amongst those who are just out to collect and/or make a $.

Then of course there is always the argument that those artifacts should be housed and displayed for the world to see - after all, many should really belong to all of mankind, and not individuals. This is where I start to have more mixed feelings. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of artifacts discovered end up catalogued and boxed/shelved in basements, archives and other storehouses to likely never see the light of day again. At least if they end up in an individual's collection, they can be displayed and admired on a regular basis - some of the individuals may be scholars or at the least folks such as us who would spend hours researching each item and enjoying the history behind them.

I know that technically, many of the items I've found over the years with my detector and/or just by exploring and searching should be turned over to the state as an antiquity - much as any other detectorist's finds. I'm "small potatos" though - the things I've found have minimal monetary value, but I can tell you that I look at many of them over and over again. I study them, research them, think about how they got there, who left them/lost them, etc... I'm positive they get more scrutiny by me than they would be any state or historical organization. I also show them to friends and fellow detectorists, we talk about them, compare them, etc... In short, they have a GREAT DEAL of meaning to me - more so than any government agency.

When it comes to large scale artifact discovery such as may be happening in your area, I guess it's a different story because of the value (both monetary and historical), but as you yourself have said, it could be the government, preservationists, etc... doing the work now anyways.

I guess I find myself in an ethical quandry - on one hand I believe if I were witness to what I suspect to be a large scale illegal artifact recovery, I would find a way to contact an authority to at least check into it. On the other hand, I have handled coins 200+ years old that legally should have been turned over to the government (despite the fact that the condition and value of the coin may be < $5) and I know they are in private collections.

I have a difficult time in my mind saying that one is not ok and should be reported, while the other is ok - they're both technically illegal, and it doesn't seem right to have "degrees" under which I would act differently.

Ahh well, I'm really just venting my frustration here - not really looking for any enlightenment or answer - it's just something that enters my mind when I read threads such as these.

 

[cactusjumper]

Jack,

We all have our priorities. You have voiced yours and your concerns for what may be an historical site. Should anything in the area of interest be Aztec, it would change history. That is the real value of potential artifacts. History does not hold the same level of importance for everyone.

To compare two positions of moral equivalency, both sides should start from some level of morality.....right or wrong. Your position negates that comparison, assuming there is any truth in your story. I assume there is, so a moral judgement seems fair.

Bottom line is: Next week you will still need those tires. Maybe you should find another way to get them. Something that does not involve bars of gold or Aztec artifacts.

You may round-file this advise with the rest of my posts.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

Nice post. That sums it up very nicely.

Take care,

Joe