Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

[Highmountain]

Good Morning Jack alias HI Mt: you posted --->

I'd honestly feel better about things if you were hanging it out over the edge with speculations and ideas same as I'm doing
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You "did" ask me to play the Devil's advocate no ? hehehehhh

Whether I believe in AZTLANTIS or not, has no bearing on my posts.. As in my Tayopa data, I encouraged people to find fault in my reasoning, If they could, then obviously I had further work to do or was mistaken.

Don Jose de La Mancha de AZTLANTIS

I did indeed, and I'm grateful for your inputs and feedback.

Someone else brought up Atlantis. Same with tinfoil hats. I didn't. And in the spirit of bantering and good-natured horseplay that prevails on this thread I merely joined in with some tongue-in-cheek.

I give as much weight to your ideas in my own thinking processes whether you believe in Atlantis, or Aztlantis, or don't. Same with everyone and everything else here. It's a place for gathering ideas of our own, in my view, as opposed to being a place for convincing others of our viewpoints.

From that perspective whatever's in the pot becomes part of the stew. If I fish out the meat and you fish out the potatoes it all gets eaten in the end.

Jack

 

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[BILL96]

Folks,
I have been following this with great intrest, it brings up alot of questions the I have wondered about. Should we have any antiquity laws at all or should everything always be up for grabs? Suppose these people have found a very old valuable site full of gold bars and priceless artifacts from a lost civilization. Should there be any laws governing what they can do with this stuff or should they be allowed to just simply sell it all to an unnamed Japanese millionare and the American public never gets to see any of it or learn from it, it just seems like it would such a loss. The "government" has been mentioned several times as though it is the devil and in some regards it probably is. But if the "government" got involved what part of the government is that and just what would they do with these artifacts? would they be boxed up and put on a shelf in a warehouse next to the "Ark of the Covenant". No dought at times they truly can be the devil and I don't understand why the Peralta stones are some sort of secret and are not on public display. Joe you mentioned they were not happy that you were taking photos of them, why not, whats the harm?. Jose When you open Tayopa and if you find mountains of artifacts what will you do with them? Should the culture of Mexico be entitled to anything? or will you simply be selling to the highest bidder. When all is said and done are governments entitled to get involved in its countries antiquities or should it really be "finders keepers"
Just some thoughts

Bill

 

[Highmountain]

Folks,
I have been following this with great intrest, it brings up alot of questions the I have wondered about. Should we have any antiquity laws at all or should everything always be up for grabs? Suppose these people have found a very old valuable site full of gold bars and priceless artifacts from a lost civilization. Should there be any laws governing what they can do with this stuff or should they be allowed to just simply sell it all to an unnamed Japanese millionare and the American public never gets to see any of it or learn from it, it just seems like it would such a loss. The "government" has been mentioned several times as though it is the devil and in some regards it probably is. But if the "government" got involved what part of the government is that and just what would they do with these artifacts? would they be boxed up and put on a shelf in a warehouse next to the "Ark of the Covenant". No dought at times they truly can be the devil and I don't understand why the Peralta stones are some sort of secret and are not on public display. Joe you mentioned they were not happy that you were taking photos of them, why not, whats the harm?. Jose When you open Tayopa and if you find mountains of artifacts what will you do with them? Should the culture of Mexico be entitled to anything? or will you simply be selling to the highest bidder. When all is said and done are governments entitled to get involved in its countries antiquities or should it really be "finders keepers"
Just some thoughts

Bill

Hi Bill:

Interesting questions. As for myself, I don't ask myself questions about what should, or shouldn't be. The 'is' and 'isn't' is already established and we have it to deal with however we choose, or however we must.

But you've brought up some good points.

Gracias,
Jack

 

[Highmountain]

For what it's worth, after studying the pics more closely and websearching the GPR equipment they're using I'm convinced the people working the site are doing so with the full knowledge of the proper USFS authorities. The equipment is such it wouldn't be available commercially or for private use.

Hope this resolves any qualms of conscience for those who were having them.

Oro is evidently correct in his assertion it's all on the up-and-up.

Thanks
J

 

[Cubfan64]

For what it's worth, after studying the pics more closely and websearching the GPR equipment they're using I'm convinced the people working the site are doing so with the full knowledge of the proper USFS authorities. The equipment is such it wouldn't be available commercially or for private use.

Hope this resolves any qualms of conscience for those who were having them.

Oro is evidently correct in his assertion it's all on the up-and-up.

Thanks
J

At least for me it doesn't change the fact that my curiosity would be killing me right now! I would want to know what they're doing and what they've found.

I'm 1000 miles away and it's driving me nuts :P

 

[Cynangyl]

Well go find out and come back and tell us! lol

 

[Highmountain]

Well go find out and come back and tell us! lol

Just an ordinary archeology dig same as a thousand others most likely. Oro and Jose had it right from the beginning I'm sure.

Sorry to have generated such a fuss over nothing.

Jack

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

OHIO BILL: You posted -->

Jose When you open Tayopa and if you find mountains of artifacts what will you do with them? Should the culture of Mexico be entitled to anything? or will you simply be selling to the highest bidde
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I believe that I have posted on this before, but in any event, no. I would not, but I would demand the exclusive right to act upon anything or any documents that are found and have anything that wasn't required for the museum in Mexico city. In the case of duplicates, they are to have first choice. As for any bars, how many would they actually need to fulfill any archaeological requirements? I certainly don't believe that they need one for each Museum, do you? They can make duplicates for this purpose, as is already being done..

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. If You had years of research and more years of lost income because of the search, what would you consider as correct, and how should it be handled?

 

[Highmountain]

OHIO BILL: You posted -->

Jose When you open Tayopa and if you find mountains of artifacts what will you do with them? Should the culture of Mexico be entitled to anything? or will you simply be selling to the highest bidde
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I believe that I have posted on this before, but in any event, no. I would not, but I would demand the exclusive right to act upon anything or any documents that are found and have anything that wasn't required for the museum in Mexico city. In the case of duplicates, they are to have first choice. As for any bars, how many would they actually need to fulfill any archaeological requirements? I certainly don't believe that they need one for each Museum, do you? They can make duplicates for this purpose, as is already being done..

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. If You had years of research and more years of lost income because of the search, what would you consider as correct, and how should it be handled?

I agree completely. I think it's only right they should reimburse you for whatever expenses you can prove and pay you a little something for whatever time you've spent on it. Maybe estimate the hours spent and pay whatever's minimum wage there, plus let you keep a gold bar for a souvineer. Seems only fair.

Makes sense to me.

J

 

[BILL96]

Jose,
What would be required for the museum ,that certainly would be the point up for negotiation.
Bill

 

[Highmountain]

Seems to me the combinations of Zuni legends of part of their tribe moving south, combined with the evidence put forth by Nancy Yaw Davis, and sombody here's assertion they crossed a large body of water probably gives the best evidence for the origin of the Aztec. Japanese. Small bodies of them moving south same as Oro suggests. Maybe Japan is Atlantis.

Never considered that possibility, but it falls right in line when you consider all the vulcanism in the Pacific.

Nancy Yaw Davis
The Zuni Enigma

http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/fall99/zuni.htm
http://snipurl.com/27fk9 [www_wwnorton_com]

http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf087/sf087a02.htm
http://snipurl.com/27fkv [www_science-frontiers_com]

http://magazine.uchicago.edu/0010/class-notes/newsmaker.html
http://snipurl.com/27fkn [magazine_uchicago_edu]

 

[cactusjumper]

Jack,

The arguement has been made for the Japanese visiting the Zuni, and while possible, it is not a well accepted theory.

The Zuni/Aztec connection is much more difficult to accept. The major problem being language. That's a hard mountain to climb.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[point hunter]

Hi. The original legend of Atlantis states it was outside the Pillars of Hercules. If you look at a world map, they face the Atlantic Ocean not the Pacific. Am I missing something here?

I am also wondering what large body of water they crossed? Is that a very large lake, a gulf, or an ocean?

There's also a reference about coming from a place of whiteness. One theory is a white sandy area. Could a place of whiteness mean ice and/or snow?

 

[cactusjumper]

Point Hunter,

"Could a place of whiteness mean ice and/or snow?"

How about white sand?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[point hunter]

CJ,

I agree with you it could mean "white sand" I was simply throwing out some other ideas to see where they went. I still think if a serious look was taken at DNA, religious practices/images, sacred symbols, etc. that this should be fairly easy to solve. If no evidence can be produced, then the Aztec are truly an enigma. There are people here who know much more than I do about the Aztec. I really enjoy hearing their ideas/opinions and appreciate their input.

 

[cactusjumper]

Point Hunter,

Actually the DNA studies have been done. Most Native Americans are from Asian ancestry. There are some notable exceptions back east and in the southeast, which show European markers.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[point hunter]

That's interesting. I'm assuming that includes the Aztec also. Thank you for that information. I have been reading and enjoying your posts for a couple of years now. Here and on other forums. I value your opinions and hope to keep learning from you and others.

 

[Highmountain]

Hi. The original legend of Atlantis states it was outside the Pillars of Hercules. If you look at a world map, they face the Atlantic Ocean not the Pacific. Am I missing something here?

I am also wondering what large body of water they crossed? Is that a very large lake, a gulf, or an ocean?

There's also a reference about coming from a place of whiteness. One theory is a white sandy area. Could a place of whiteness mean ice and/or snow?

I didn't intend to suggest I believe the legend of Atlantis is true. I'm the one believes in the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot. I withhold judgement about Atlantis, but if it exists I expect it's probably Japan, which is definitely outside the Pillars of Hercules. But a lot of maps in those times were off somewhat and that might be one of the places they forgot to put something in.

Pacific Ocean seems to me to be the most logical body of water for Japan to be in and if the ancient maps show it outside the Pillars of Hercules it just means the maps weren't as detailed as they are today.

And the place of Seven Caves makes all manner of sense being Japan. The Japanese love caves. 60 years ago every cave in the Pacific Ocean had a thousand or ten Japanese crawling out of yelling "Banzia!" with a fixed bayonette and a handgrenade.

Just my thinking at the moment.

J

 

[cactusjumper]

Point Hunter,

First, many thanks for your very kind words.

I would suggest that you never take anything I write here for gospel. If you can, check it out for yourself. You will find I make many mistakes, and that will help expand your own knowledge. That is the creed that I live by......Trust but verify. In that process, we learn so much more, because the direction of our research is being guided and focused by the thinking and conclusions of others.

You can't imagine how much I have learned by following the stories of people like the blindbowman. It's made many people angry, but in truth, I am not here for them. My motives are purely self serving. I have questioned everyone......even my friend Roy, who I find to be one of the most knowledgeable people on this forum.

I have found that those who stay silently in the background, like you have, are there because they, usually, already know where we are going and want to leave us the pure joy of discovery. I picture you setting back and smiling at our little rants.

Once again, I appreciate your kind words.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"in this you can see Aztlan as the island in the center of a large body of water, with the proto-Aztecs crossing in a boat to the new land. The stylized "pyramid" in the middle of Aztlan is a VOLCANO, which is apparently active/erupting. So if the Aztecs own myths of their origins are to be taken seriously (some do not feel this is justified) then we should look for a place outside of central Mexico, across a large body of water, where there were volcanoes active in the past. Just my view, basing it on the work of other 'legend-hunters' like Schliemann who found Troy by following the ancient description or Dora Katsonopoulou and Helike. It is quite possible the Aztecs legends are "dramatized" with added on details to make it more,...exciting? Humboldt's map puts Aztlan in what is today Utah by the Great Salt Lake after all, and he had access to the whole of the Spanish archives - but as far as I know, nothing has ever been found by the Salt Lake to substantiate his idea either. (I welcome any corrections/updates.) Not sure there are any active volcanoes on an island in Salt Lake either..."

Once again, a fine bit of research and posting.

I still believe, because of the unique qualities of the Aztec calendar, the times recorded in the Aztlan migration may very well be skewed, possibly by thousands of years.

We would not be looking for an active volcano, but one that is dormant. It would not hurt to find an ancient seabed that receded into whiteness, in a volcanic region. The sea dying would be an excellent reason for Aztec migration.

It may be that everything we seek (historically) can be found in the white sands of New Mexico.

Take care,

Joe