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Thread: Aztec Gold - how and where they might have acquired it

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  1. #1

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
    616
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    Aztec Gold - how and where they might have acquired it

    If we're to believe Bernal Diaz,

    1] The Aztec arrived in great numbers from somewhere in the north within a century before the arrival of Cortez,
    2] The Aztec had far more gold and of a better 'quality' than the other tribes along the route the Spaniards took to the Valley of Mexico.

    The cultures to the south had been around for a long while and had large quantities of gold, which likely came from areas they occupied or they'd traded for it from outside areas for centuries.

    The Aztec, on the other hand, had either come from, or traveled through [possibly huge] areas historically inhabited by cultures where gold, copper and silver is deposited in great quantities and where the occupants placed no particular value on those minerals and left no evidence of having mined or refined them. If the ancestors of the Aztec originated in those areas and lived in them long enough generations to have developed a complex, sophisticated society they'd almost certainly have discovered where the mineral deposits were [even if they weren't much interested in them until they'd moved south].

    Alternatively, [if their origins were further north or elsewhere] they might have established firm relationships with the area residents who did know where the mineral deposits were located. For that matter, they might have absorbed such groups as the Anasazi, Mimbres, Mogollon, Hohokam during their migration and persuaded them to join their trek to a new homeland.

    In any case, because the Aztec came from the north, while the eyes of the surrounding tribes in Mexico when they arrived had previously been clearly focused on the advanced cultures to the south, they might have been in the unique position of knowing locations of minerals to the north unknown to the Toltec and other nearby tribes.

    The coincident of the vanishing southwestern cultures during the same period as the arrival of the Aztec in Mexico, the bloody civil war fought among them 1100-1150ce seems to me to offer a compelling suggestion of a connection between the two events. This, despite the fact those cultures left no evidence of having cared about gold and other metals and the pottery and other artifacts of the southwestern cultures bears little similarity to that of the Aztec.

    I believe that whatever region the Aztec might have originated in, a strong case might be made they acquired their gold and silver in the Sierra Madre and northward after having learned the skills for refining it and developed a liking for the beauty of it for ornaments as well as for other uses.

    Those are the fundamental premises of this thread. My hope is to maintain a relatively narrow focus in the discussion and share ideas, evidence and other information concerning possibly pre-Columbian mining and refining sites located in the southwestern US and northern Mexico.

    cmaracing likes this.

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  3. #2
    Charter Member
    us
    Apr 2007
    God's lap
    X-terra 70 ACE 250
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    Re: Aztec Gold - how and where they might have acquired it

    I shall be lazy with you kind sir!

  4. #3
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,220
    848 times

    Re: Aztec Gold - how and where they might have acquired it

    Allo High: out of curiosity have you considered placer mining, not hard rock mining? I will bet 10 -1 on placers since there were tremendously rich ones in Mexico in the past.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  5. #4
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,220
    848 times

    Re: Aztec Gold - how and where they might have acquired it

    OHO: Some things come to mind regarding relatively ancient cultures, for starters ---->

    A) As I understand it, corn originated in south America. It was a small cob with only perhaps 4 -5 kernels on it, yet, somehow, somewere, it was evolved into the corn as the Aztecs etc. utilized it, similar to our present corn, and had migrated to North America..

    Who, where, and how, did this happen? This can be a solid clue as to intercourse and time factors etc among the early Americans.

    B) The smelting of gold, while basically a simple process, still involves a bit of unusual metalurgy and extremely high temperatures. This can be another possible path to follow. How advanced were the mound builders?

    Don Jose de La Mancha

    p.s. ORO, I love mountain grown blue Corn tortillas.



    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  6. #5
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,220
    848 times

    Re: Aztec Gold - how and where they might have acquired it

    HI mi buddy ORO: Is there any evidence of deliberate cross breeding in those days? In plants of ocurse heheheh

    Don Jose de La mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  7. #6

    Aug 2004
    1,341
    7 times

    Re: Aztec Gold - how and where they might have acquired it

    Dear Real De Tayopa;
    You fielded an intersting question, which leads me to reply in kind:

    As I understand it, corn originated in south America. It was a small cob with only perhaps 4 -5 kernels on it, yet, somehow, somewere, it was evolved into the corn as the Aztecs etc. utilized it, similar to our present corn, and had migrated to North America..

    Who, where, and how, did this happen? This can be a solid clue as to intercourse and time factors etc among the early Americans.


    In order to arrive at the most likely answer, one needs to look skyward,my friend. Corn is a seed. Birds eat seeds. Birds also fly long distances. Birds also deficate (especially on freshly washed cars). The migration of corn seeds from South to North America most likely spanned thousands, if not tens of thousands of, years, and most likely occurred in the digestive tracts of birds and other small animals.

    To assume that the migration of corn seeds over thousands of miles was the result of human intervention is far fetched when there exists a much simpler explanation, although not nearly as fascinating, I'll admit.
    Your friend;
    LAMAR

  8. #7
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,299
    520 times

    Re: Aztec Gold - how and where they might have acquired it

    Lamar,

    Interesting theory, and possible for other food plants, but not corn. Corn does not grow wild and needs human cultivation to survive.

    "Corn in a sense appears to belong conceptually with people rather than with other plants -- in the realm of culture rather than nature -- or, perhaps more accurately, it occupies a position intermediary between the two. One reason corn is so closely allied with the cultural may be that it has no obvious wild counterpart; in most parts of the Americas where it was and is grown there are no naturally occurring plants remotely similar in appearance. Being an exotic in most areas, it also cannot survive without human care, unlike some other crops that go feral or interbreed with wild relatives. And finally, the image of the corn plant itself is very like a human being: growing tall as a person with hair wafting in the wind and arms moving, whispering in the breeze."

    "Corn and Culture in the Prehistoric New World." Sissel Johannessen.

    __________________________________________________ __________

    "Modern maize has no equal among other cultivated species, or for that matter, in the wild as an efficient producer of grain. The kernels on an ear of maize cling tightly to the rigid cob, the creation of centuries of selective breeding. If the ear were to drop to the ground, so many competing seedlings would emerge that in all likelihood, few would grow to maturity."

    "Maize in the Third World" Authors: Christopher R. Dowswell, R. L. Paliwal and P. Cantrell .


    Jose,

    "As I understand it, corn originated in south America. It was a small cob with only perhaps 4 -5 kernels on it, yet, somehow, somewere, it was evolved into the corn as the Aztecs etc. utilized it, similar to our present corn, and had migrated to North America..

    Who, where, and how, did this happen? This can be a solid clue as to intercourse and time factors etc among the early Americans."

    I believe the first cultivated maize came from the Pre-Olmec Culture. It was passed in trade to the Pueblos.

    Take care,

    Joe

  9. #8
    us
    May 2007
    Western Colorado
    5,871
    32 times

    Re: Aztec Gold - how and where they might have acquired it

    I have found that there are several types of maize here in this part of the country.
    There is a multicolored that is on a small tight cob
    A blue and white that tends to come from the navaho and associated area,
    and a red variety that is very isolated . I know it was here and was not inundated with other colors.

    It was not the 5 or 6 kernals on a cob stuff
    this was long a long cob with a prolifera of kernals.

    These folks knew how to grow the stuff.

    Here is a photo that illustrates my point.
    I had to use the whole zoom on the camera to get this one.
    I have no idea when this cob was dropped,
    but the crack is about 30 feet deep and as you can see tight at each end.
    so tight in fact the mice haven't gotten to it.

    Thom
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    "Everybody dies"
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  10. #9

    Aug 2004
    1,341
    7 times

    Re: Aztec Gold - how and where they might have acquired it

    Dear cactusjumper;
    I tend to disagree with your statement;
    "Interesting theory, and possible for other food plants, but not corn. Corn does not grow wild and needs human cultivation to survive."

    If corn never grew wild, then where in the world did it come from This is akin to the chicken and the egg argument. Perhaps the cultivated corn which we are now familiar with cannot grow in the wild, however the original corn species were indeed wild ones. If corn were not originally wild, then how could it have originated, my friend? And please, lets' not get into discussions about genetic engineering during pre-Columbian times.
    Your friend;
    LAMAR

  11. #10
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,299
    520 times

    Re: Aztec Gold - how and where they might have acquired it

    Lamar,

    "To assume that the migration of corn seeds over thousands of miles was the result of human intervention is far fetched when there exists a much simpler explanation, although not nearly as fascinating, I'll admit."

    Sorry, I thought you were talking about how corn made it's way into the Southwest. I will assume you know more about corn than the folks I quoted. My mistake.

    Take care,

    Joe

  12. #11
    ca
    May 2007
    1,578
    285 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: Aztec Gold - how and where they might have acquired it

    Not gold or corn,but puzzles are made from many parts.
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,373702,00.html
    Regards:SH
    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  13. #12
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,299
    520 times

    Re: Aztec Gold - how and where they might have acquired it

    bb,

    You have mentioned that you believe your "site 4" is Chicomoztoc. Can you explain what you believe Chicomoztoc is? How many caves make up Chicomoztoc? I know a little about it, but you seem to have studied the legend to a high enough degree, to be able to recognize the site when you see it. Even scholars disagree on whether it's a legend or reality.

    As you know, I am an avid fan of the history of Mexico and the Southwest. I learn something new every day. This has nothing to do with what you have or have not found, but what you think you have found.

    Thanks in advance for any answers you can or wish to provide.

    Joe Ribaudo

  14. #13
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,299
    520 times

    Re: Aztec Gold - how and where they might have acquired it

    It may be that bb is not inclined to answer any questions, so if someone else want to jump in here, please feel free to do so.

    Joe Ribaudo

  15. #14
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,130
    656 times

    Re: Aztec Gold - how and where they might have acquired it

    HOLA amigos,

    I thought that the archies had reported finding the original "wild" corn a few years ago? There was an article in a science mag a few years ago, can't recall who wrote it but am pretty sure they claimed corn had been developed from Teosinte (spelled? corrections welcomed). I will have to see if I can find that article.
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  16. #15
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,299
    520 times

    Re: Aztec Gold - how and where they might have acquired it

    Roy,

    You are correct in the spelling, but incorrect in the conclusion.

    There was some speculation that domesticated corn was derived from teosinte, but that has been proven to be false. There are four species of teosinte and all are distinctly different than Zia, from which maize is the domesticated version.

    For a complete history of cultivated corn in the New World, I would reccommend you try to find a copy of:

    "Corn and Culture in the Prehistoric New World"

    I can't imagine it will be found in your average library. At a guess, your best bet would be a university.

    Take care,

    Joe

  17. #16

    Nov 2006
    1,379
    5 times

    Re: Aztec Gold - how and where they might have acquired it

    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper
    bb,

    You have mentioned that you believe your "site 4" is Chicomoztoc. Can you explain what you believe Chicomoztoc is? How many caves make up Chicomoztoc? I know a little about it, but you seem to have studied the legend to a high enough degree, to be able to recognize the site when you see it. Even scholars disagree on whether it's a legend or reality.

    As you know, I am an avid fan of the history of Mexico and the Southwest. I learn something new every day. This has nothing to do with what you have or have not found, but what you think you have found.

    Thanks in advance for any answers you can or wish to provide.

    Joe Ribaudo
    chicomozt it the place of seven caves ... these cave share a common entrance ...they also share a common place in a few legends as in the catcoms ..

    what is chicomoztoc imho ..its a site of the aceint ones how many years has cultures call it home .. i can only hope to define that when the site is worked ..

    i beleive chicomoztoc started as a entrance to the catcoms and when the tribes had made it past the little ice age the came to the suface and started to repulate the earth again . i feel a strong culture of hunters and gathers at this site .. the you tell me how isolated they were in those mts ...?


    i beleive that the site was part of a greater culture ,yes the same as atlantis or they traded with that culture dirrectly , they ether learn from it or atlantis learn from them .. these chichimeca shaman could be part of the oldest shaman on earth . they share a common nature with the cave drawers ..


    i think most of the sitewas all but destored yet knowing the location is not as hard as under standing who they were and what they were ...


    we are talking cave dwellers ,hunters and gathers .. much the way as the palo indains ....if they were a isolated tribe of shaman a holly city if you well ..

    if there is any chance that anything remains at this site .. it would be one of greatest decoveries of all time ...i think the only bad thing is how the site was destored , frist their own peple trying to hide the site and other times the site being ramsaked ..and looted ...its sad to think we beleive are culture is smart ...

    think there well be signs of their culture still there ..i can sence it ....i see things change bytime and faded away ..i have no dout what so ever it is still there


    i think we can relate to the ball courts to have a better under standing of what chicomoztoc means .. picture this in your mind . each tribes earns its right to leave the secerd home of all tribes . yet each must win the crystall skull to be free and earn its place in the free tribes .. each come to the oldest ball court in the hope to see and learn the skills of the the aceint ones .. as the tribes earn their freedom ,they start makeing courts of their own and the game be =comes wide sped ...


    i would like nothing better then my research to end with all of you standing in the ball court in AW

    think about how great our foot ball sport has become and know it started there .. how secerd is this place they call chicomoztoc .. know and hear the truth . it their secerd place if i am right it is ,older then the great flood of our bible ...older then the bible it self ,, older then the little ice age


    i feel it when i am there .. i hear the spirits playing on the cort .. i sence the shaman watching and their beings still live ....in the seven caves ..


    when it is time i will call them and hope they hear my hawk above and come to see the shaman lost in time , there will be great spirits in the morning shadows danceing in the rays of sweet sun light .. the sand and dust will kick in the wind and i will know they are there thousands of year beyond the past . i have fallen threw time and landed here in your realities and your time is not mine ...


    what is chicomoztoc ...? it is their home . it is their haunted house ... it is the greatest of churches ,the home of their gods ...


    a small tribe of a few dozen near the caves and thousands with in ,,,,yet time has takeing them ,and you see what is left ,, it has come down to one chosen one to reinstate this place of the gods ...

    pots and jars and old what not .. yet to stand there and say here i am standing in the ball cort of chicomoztoc ,... this takes the legend and sets it the reality free .. the site is real and so were the people that once lived there long long long time ago

    if i was to define a set date of the evidence ,,, chicomoztoc would be no less then 13,500 BC , and became best know after the year of 9,500 BC for the brith of the all tribes ....yet we only see any record of it in its destuction ... our culture is based on foolish faith and the lack of under standing of what a great and powerful culture they were in their time ...

    i think the spainish beleived the catcoms were aztec mines , and when they did not find the gold and wealth they were seeking they killed what they did not under stand as is the case withmost modern cultures ...

    you look around now and there is dust and sand and rock , yet these things can not hide the spirits that have past threw those gates ..


    there is no question if chicomoztoc is real or not .. ! legendard yes , history yes ....real yes






    cmaracing likes this.
    " have i lost my way ? or am i just a being of lost ways ? "

    " a wiseman once told me a wiseman that thinks he knows everything has already failed  because he thinks "

    the blindbowman ,2007

  18. #17
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,299
    520 times

    Re: Aztec Gold - how and where they might have acquired it

    bb,

    Thank you for your reply.

    Actually, I believe Chicomoztoc consists of eight caves.

    "you tell me how isolated they were in those mts ...?"

    I should think that in the era of importance (to you), between 13,500 BC and 9,500 BC, just about anywhere would be "isolated"....in this country. The first Native Americans arrived in Arizona between 16000 BC and 10,000 BC. That would fit into your theory. It is unlikely that the Ice Age had much immediate impact on Arizona, other than the higher mountain peaks, such as the the area around Flagstaff. The Ice started to recede around 11,000 years ago.

    During that time, I don't believe there was much cultural pressure being exerted anywhere on this continent. Lot's of room, not that many people, and those that were here were gathered in very small groups. Going by the legends, the people of Chicomoztoc would have been the most concentrated and powerful people, in the time period you are speaking of. They would have feared no other tribes who might have been in the Southwest, and they were not hiding from the ice.

    No large group of peoples living in the Southwest could have survived while staying in one place for a long period of time. That would be especially true in Chicomoztoc, assuming it was in the Superstition Mountains, and during the time period you are speculating.

    In reading your theories, I can't help but believe you have been reading the works of James Nienhuis. Would that be true?

    I have voiced a number of opinions here, which may or may not be factual.

    Thanks again,

    Joe


  19. #18

    Nov 2006
    1,379
    5 times

    Re: Aztec Gold - how and where they might have acquired it

    no ,in fact my thoeries relates to Dennis Stanford of the Smithsonian Institution

    his research and work on clovis sites relate very close to my own research ...i have read dozen of books but as you know expolration is often a solo task ......

    whern i posted the sites the lunar scale had related to . 3 of those locations relate to Dennis Stanford clovis sites on the east coast , also if i was right about the earth shifting on its axis ,this main site would have been do north of the new location of Atlantis i located ...there was a fine line between open sea sailing and sailing by the stars ,, the diffrence was those who sailed the open sea had few people willing to go with them ,.....LOL ...

    i think any real theory that stands to become fact must relate to Dennis Stanford 's out line of the realities of the times in question ,, and mine not only do this they complete some of his work as well as his mine ...

    your date is a little off Cj where did you get the 11000 years ago date not so much that the date is off ,to me it sounds random ...as you know the only sign of ay culture restarted in 9500 bc with the discovery of the folsom MN site ..as the starting piont for new culture .yet the last pre culture being that of the clovis ,NM site ...it is my theory both of those sites are in basic flatland areas . and i beleive the cultures that made both of those sites came from chicomoztoc both sites are a set lunar distence from chicomoztoc ...

    i beleive they were part of the trade routs of chicomoztoc . as i explaned i had found three full levels of this culture . one local .one interstate and one international ..

    i have many questions as well as you .. the one thing i wish to know is what site was the frist . the france site of comagna shaman of chicomoztoc or atlantis .. i have all but ruled out Atlantis . the site was osland based and most likely would not fit the comagna shaman common factors but chicomoztoc and the france site are sisters .. they match like a pair of shoes ....in many ways .. drawings .. potery ,art ,... skill level of the stone work and hunting and gathering details ....


    the fact i can dirrectly link these two sites is enough for me to beleive they are related ...

    i hope that answers your question ...
    cmaracing likes this.
    " have i lost my way ? or am i just a being of lost ways ? "

    " a wiseman once told me a wiseman that thinks he knows everything has already failed  because he thinks "

    the blindbowman ,2007

  20. #19
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,299
    520 times

    Re: Aztec Gold - how and where they might have acquired it

    bb,

    "your date is a little off Cj where did you get the 11000 years ago date not so much that the date is off ,to me it sounds random..."

    I believe that approximate date is accepted as the end of of the Ice Age.

    Anytime you are reading the works of people like Dennis Stanford, you need to be careful because he often cites what was believed/accepted by the scientific community, before 1900. Things change.

    Thanks for your reply,

    Joe Ribaudo

  21. #20
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,130
    656 times

    Re: Aztec Gold - how and where they might have acquired it

    Cactusjumper thank you for the suggested read, if I should research the history of corn in depth that book would be very helpful, judging by your description. By any chance do you know the publication date of Corn and Culture in the Prehistoric New World? Sometimes newer research has stood the accepted facts on end, and in the field of the origins of domesticated plants (and animals) the science is still young with new discoveries and theories coming out fairly regularly. The dates of first domestication are frequently being pushed back, as in the case with wheat for instance up until recently the earliest was thought to be 4-5000 BC, new evidence shows it to be much more ancient, right near our key date being bantered about - 9500 BC (Turkey, Syria, Iraq finds) so I would not be surprised if the date for the origin of corn gets pushed back some by new evidence.

    Blindbowman you wax poetic about the ancients, the holy ball game and etc; by any chance have you seen the recent movie "Apocalypto" directed by Mel Gibson? If you have not (yet) I think you would very much enjoy it. It might alter your view of those ancients and their culture a bit.

    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

 

 
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