Not trying to raise a srink, but.....

[bigscoop]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when we consider the various shapes, sizes, densities, depth and signal strength, alloy mixes and the varying levels of those alloy mixes, aren't manufacturers stretching the realities as to the real-world limits of the new machines they're promoting?


“More sensitive to gold.” Really? I mean it isn't even possible for a machine to evaluate and determine the individual alloy compositions in a single piece of gold jewelry, this alloy mixture, along with the item's density/mass determining that item's conductivity. If we mix a 22k gold ring with 43% copper then the conductivity of that original 22k ring changes dramatically, mix that same 22k ring with 60% sterling silver then that ring's conductivity changes yet again, that ring's ever changing size and shape and mass and depth also having effect, and so on and so on.


Per example, we recently ran a dozen gold rings of various alloy mixes, shapes, sizes, etc., under the coil of an AT Pro and these rings returned solid VDI readings anywhere from 39 to 81, the readings on these same rings changing as the distance between the target and the coil increased and the signal strength diminished. Now place these same rings at depths in the various levels and types of contaminated soil and place trust in the machine's discrimination features and that machine's processor to determine which of these very faint returns is a potential target of value? The only thing that can result from this is the loss of potential targets of value. “Period!”


Bottom line, rely on discrimination less and investigate and dig more targets , especially on those deeper fainter returns. There isn't a machine out there that can do everything with the accuracy and reliability that some of these manufacturer's are touting, especially when it comes to the extremely wide ranging jewelry items that are made with these various degrees of gold and other alloy compositions. “More sensitive to gold?” How's that work, exactly?


Forgive me if I seem harsh and jaded, but honesty, I've grown tired of all the routine hype and unfounded claims that seem to proceed every new machine heading to market. Now don't get me wrong, I'd be the first in line to purchase a machine that can “accurately sort out” all of the above at depths, and please don't reply with that “signal boost technology” stuff as this only comes after the fact as this boosting of the return cannot add more accurate data in that boosted return. So if I'm wrong in any of this please feel free to explain it to me as I am completely open to learning more about anything I am currently misunderstanding. But until then I'll stick with the same time-tested and user proven machine that I'm currently using.

 

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[Mackaydon]

My 'two cents': Use a dealer's demo model and test the machine against your best machine.
This should remove all doubt as to the vaildity of the dealer's comments.
Forget the manufacturer's and dealer's "puffing" and rely on only your own tests--with a free demo machine from your dealer.
Don.....

 

[Rookster]

All good points.

 

[smokeythecat]

Dealers and manufacturers would stretch the truth! Surely you jest!

 

[CASPER-2]

to be able to pick and choose targets on a machine - sounds like your in it for profit
think that is why guys buy every new machine with "promises" that comes out
Im in it for the hobby - so digging it all is fine with me
in fact finding deep older junk can be signs of older goodies
still believe I get stuff deeper than most with my CZ21 in all metal
I go to spots that are peppered with all the newer machines from the last few yrs
and still get stuff they miss - so do others I know that use older machines
myself and others up here dig most of the junk out -
we find less than southern beaches - good and bad
because our beaches are only officially open for 4 months at that is the season for us
where places like Fla. are open 24/7 - 12 months a year
I would be interested in new Fisher if it can pull stuff from below where Im getting stuff now
no one with the newer machines has done it yet that I know of

 

[RustyGold]

Oh dang! Here I was thinking I’d purchased my last detector..

 

[cudamark]

There ARE machines that are "more sensitive to gold"....mainly small gold. High frequency machines hit on small gold better than low frequency machines. It's simple to demonstrate. Take a small gold or platinum stud earring, or a tiny link chain of the same metal, and test it with that AT Pro or even your (and my) trust Excalibur/CTX/Etrac, etc. Good luck getting a signal! Now, try again with a Gold Bug, AT Gold, Equinox, GPX5000, etc, that are made for finding gold. No problem now. The high frequency causes a better eddy current around those low and mid conductors.

 

[bigscoop]

to be able to pick and choose targets on a machine - sounds like your in it for profit
think that is why guys buy every new machine with "promises" that comes out
Im in it for the hobby - so digging it all is fine with me
in fact finding deep older junk can be signs of older goodies
still believe I get stuff deeper than most with my CZ21 in all metal
I go to spots that are peppered with all the newer machines from the last few yrs
and still get stuff they miss - so do others I know that use older machines
myself and others up here dig most of the junk out -
we find less than southern beaches - good and bad
because our beaches are only officially open for 4 months at that is the season for us
where places like Fla. are open 24/7 - 12 months a year
I would be interested in new Fisher if it can pull stuff from below where Im getting stuff now
no one with the newer machines has done it yet that I know of

Actually, I think you missed my point...lol....which is why I've remained with the machine that I have. My point being, these new machines can't possibly deliver on their promises, and in fact, they are likely costing folks potential targets, especially the deeper targets.

 

[bigscoop]

There ARE machines that are "more sensitive to gold"....mainly small gold. High frequency machines hit on small gold better than low frequency machines. It's simple to demonstrate. Take a small gold or platinum stud earring, or a tiny link chain of the same metal, and test it with that AT Pro or even your (and my) trust Excalibur/CTX/Etrac, etc. Good luck getting a signal! Now, try again with a Gold Bug, AT Gold, Equinox, GPX5000, etc, that are made for finding gold. No problem now. The high frequency causes a better eddy current around those low and mid conductors.

I have no problem hitting on small fine gold, three recent fine gold rings coming in at only .7 grams, .6 grams, and 1gram, and have also recovered many small gold chains. All three of these fine gold rings at decent depths and in fairly contaminated bottoms. Did any of them provide a a good reliable initial return? Absolutely not, which is my point, these extremely faint and often broken returns often filtered out by these advanced discrimination features in favor of the stronger and more reliable returns. Two of those small rings were simple 14k bands, the other a tiny 10k signet ring, 8" tornado coil, zero disc, high sensitivity, max volume, threshold nearly completely silent. If I had been trusting disc I likely would have never even gotten returns on these items, the audible on them sounding like very tiny and very thin pieces of flat copper or tin. These audible returns are the same returns machines utilize in determining VDI, so right out of the gate the many claims are flawed simply due to the extreme inconsistencies in manufactured gold items, this only being compounded by other factors such as depth, soil, etc., etc.

 

[bigscoop]

I was mistaken on the actual weights, the 2 small 14k birth rings are .6 grams each, the small signet is right at .7 grams. If I had run my coil over these prior to having attended the "OBN Online School of Metal Detector Technology & Experience" I would have walked right over these and I would never even known they existed. Prior to that I would have trusted disc modes, now I don't, and for a lot of different reasons. Regardless what mode I might start out my day with these days that remote switch is constantly getting worked........and I'm also hunting much slower.

 

[cudamark]

I have no problem hitting on small fine gold, three recent fine gold rings coming in at only .7 grams, .6 grams, and 1gram, and have also recovered many small gold chains. All three of these fine gold rings at decent depths and in fairly contaminated bottoms. Did any of them provide a a good reliable initial return? Absolutely not, which is my point, these extremely faint and often broken returns often filtered out by these advanced discrimination features in favor of the stronger and more reliable returns. Two of those small rings were simple 14k bands, the other a tiny 10k signet ring, 8" tornado coil, zero disc, high sensitivity, max volume, threshold nearly completely silent. If I had been trusting disc I likely would have never even gotten returns on these items, the audible on them sounding like very tiny and very thin pieces of flat copper or tin. These audible returns are the same returns machines utilize in determining VDI, so right out of the gate the many claims are flawed simply due to the extreme inconsistencies in manufactured gold items, this only being compounded by other factors such as depth, soil, etc., etc.

Full soldered rings? Sure, those are no problem. Try a broken one, or a tiny gold charm or stud earring. I'm finding many more of those now with the Equinox than I found with a variety of other machines. The speed of the new machine processors is also another advantage in a target rich area. Sure, you can dig every signal and eventually come up with the good masked target, but, wouldn't it be nice to know there's actually a good target there instead just digging junk trying not to miss anything? Since I've gotten older and have a harder time hunting from dawn to dusk, the more good targets per hour has been my motto. Unless I 'm getting plenty of good targets, or looking for a specific lost item, I don't overlap either. No point in going over the same target free ground twice. The more virgin sand I can cover, the better odds of finding a good target. There's no way you're going to cover most beaches completely in one hunt anyway. If you overlap, sure you probably won't miss anything in that area, but, there's acres more sand to cover that you didn't even get the coil over at all, because you spent too much time and effort covering some sand twice. Now, If you're getting good targets, sure, overlap and take advantage of a good area, and slow down, especially if they're deep. Unlike other venues, I rarely ever run discrimination at the beach. I run all metal and then try some filtering when I get a signal to determine whether to dig or not. If there's any doubt, I dig/scoop. Urban parks are a different story. I would go insane running all metal there. Same with some dump sites and building/construction areas. Some are just too littered with bad targets to run all metal, unless the site is old enough and the targets are good enough, to spend the time it's going to take.

 

[wildcarrot]

bigscoop....I agree with you 100%. I've worked the same areas behind guys that are using machines that are telling them not to dig and I found gold.
I've also been out with guys that have the capability to disc out certain targets and still dig everything. So what's the point?

Because I use an old Surf PI and a Dual Field PI I have always dug it all. Hair pins, pull tabs, pieces of foil, little tiny rusty pieces of nails & screws etc.
Many of these targets were faint whispers that the PI picked up. I do dig a lot of trash but I also find a lot of good stuff and it's deep!

So I'll stick with my old PI machines because I live at the beach. They have served me well.

I have to admit I do enjoy using my old White's DFX when I'm hunting on land but I still usually dig everything

I also agree with Casper... this is a hobby for me. I'm in it for the thrill of the hunt and keep everything I've found.

Good Luck Out There

 

[bigscoop]

Full soldered rings? Sure, those are no problem. Try a broken one, or a tiny gold charm or stud earring. I'm finding many more of those now with the Equinox than I found with a variety of other machines. The speed of the new machine processors is also another advantage in a target rich area. Sure, you can dig every signal and eventually come up with the good masked target, but, wouldn't it be nice to know there's actually a good target there instead just digging junk trying not to miss anything? Since I've gotten older and have a harder time hunting from dawn to dusk, the more good targets per hour has been my motto. Unless I 'm getting plenty of good targets, or looking for a specific lost item, I don't overlap either. No point in going over the same target free ground twice. The more virgin sand I can cover, the better odds of finding a good target. There's no way you're going to cover most beaches completely in one hunt anyway. If you overlap, sure you probably won't miss anything in that area, but, there's acres more sand to cover that you didn't even get the coil over at all, because you spent too much time and effort covering some sand twice. Now, If you're getting good targets, sure, overlap and take advantage of a good area, and slow down, especially if they're deep. Unlike other venues, I rarely ever run discrimination at the beach. I run all metal and then try some filtering when I get a signal to determine whether to dig or not. If there's any doubt, I dig/scoop. Urban parks are a different story. I would go insane running all metal there. Same with some dump sites and building/construction areas. Some are just too littered with bad targets to run all metal, unless the site is old enough and the targets are good enough, to spend the time it's going to take.

Cuda, all I can say is, "slow down with that excal, give the machine time to bring up the return, and you'll start getting plenty of small incomplete loop earrings, tiny charms, etc., etc." Also, there's a reason why the Equinox has faster target separation and quicker discrimination on the shallower and stronger returns, but there is also a sacrifice in achieving that. It's a great machine for folks who want to cover as much ground as possible in a discrimination mode, but here again, there's a sacrifice in supplying that demand. Depth and Speed and Discrimination can never go hand in hand.

 

[CASPER-2]

There are places you have to hunt fast - due to time or people or waves
there are places and times of day you do not - so slow down
if your on vacation and have limited time - yeah - you have to cover as much ground in your limited time
as you can
There are times you may have to crank your discrimination - if you do - you will lose depth - you will lose
small gold or possibly white gold
there are many places you shouldn't have to use discrimination - or much discrim. - so don't
I have guys up here that crank theirs because they don't want to find a single piece - well they
miss more than trash - if you look thru my albums - most hunts I will show you my trash
up here in New England - i usually always get more good than bad - and usually not much bad
bunch of us used PIs yrs back and cleaned a lot of the trash out - so mostly you will only get
fresh trash drops and after beaches close they get systematically hammered up here
and most of that fresh trash is gone too - except for that which is discriminated by the crankers
I know guys that leave their machine set up the same way everywhere - I'm telling you
and Bluetube can back me up - you go to a beach with some history up here - try and go
all metal if you can - what ever machine you got and you may be surprised
If you have a beach or beaches right near you - it is smart to hunt in all metal and try and get everything
you can out of it/them - then you can have piece of mind - i think its silly when ive gone to a beach and guy(s)
say they hit there all the time - yet there is trash and deep goodies under that trash because they crank
their discrim. in a spot they hit all the time - don't be lazy - if it is right near you - take the time - take it all
out - i wrote an article on taking it all out - ive found lot and lots of silver and gold - with and under
iron and other junk and many times others had said they knew of the large piece of junk i found it with
cause they used it as a marker and did not want to tak ethe time to remove it

 

[bigscoop]

I don't think there's any doubt that manufactures have figured out that they can sell more machines if they include a lot of "entertainment features" in those machines.

 

[Red James Cash]

Always remember B.S.ing is the new truth nowadays.Lie and you're golden,tell the truth watch out.

 

[Johnnybravo300]

My f2 has the coin readings and "tab" and "foil" hehe. It's never usually correct on what's there but I get a kick out of it.
If it was accurate it would say beer can, nail, zincoln, more trash, wire, chunk of random metal, 1965 quarter, etc....

 

[ecmjamsit]

To be scientific, you are simply measuring a change in inductance in the coil. How well the coil is engineered and the processing circuitry are important. The basic electronics is that you still are measuring a change in the electrical property called " inductance". The inductance property of the coil is changed by placing a conductor in the vicinity of the coil. The unit of inductance is the "henry". This electrical property can be used many different ways to detect metal.
Most sales people haven't a clue of how the detector actually works. Same as car sales people. You would have to study electronics for years to really understand how the metal detector of today work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductance

 

[cudamark]

Cuda, all I can say is, "slow down with that excal, give the machine time to bring up the return, and you'll start getting plenty of small incomplete loop earrings, tiny charms, etc., etc." Also, there's a reason why the Equinox has faster target separation and quicker discrimination on the shallower and stronger returns, but there is also a sacrifice in achieving that. It's a great machine for folks who want to cover as much ground as possible in a discrimination mode, but here again, there's a sacrifice in supplying that demand. Depth and Speed and Discrimination can never go hand in hand.

I don't have a fast swing with any of my machines. You'll miss deep targets if you do. In the water, it's almost impossible to swing too fast anyway. I also rarely hunt in discrimination. I only switch out of disc when I get a target (depending on the detector) to help I.D. iron or not. This includes the Excalibur, Etrac and Equinox as well as others I've had and used. Some areas have too much iron to dig it all, or in many cases, the iron is too big or deep to remove it. Some of our beaches have drainage pipes or old steel reinforced concrete buried under the sand. Hunting around those can be a challenge. Having a quick processor and being able to switch from all metal to disc can help find stuff buried close to those obstacles. I see no sacrifice in using a machine with a faster processor. Like I mentioned, I still swing slowly and in all metal. I will get the depth, and I'll also have disc, and fast processor to help separate the good from the bad. I get lots of requests from people to help locate lost items. In the case of tiny targets, like stud earrings, charms, hearing aids, etc, that have very little metal in them, some machines (like the Excal, Etrac, At Pro, CTX, F75, etc) won't hit on those targets at all. In the case of earrings and hearing aids, I've had it's twin to test with my machines to see what they read before I start the search. The Equinox with give a decent response on them that the others won't sense at all, even in an air test rubbing the item on the coil. It takes a machine designed to find those items. I used to use a gold nugget machine for that. Now, the Nox is doing the job, and doing it well. I still use the Excal and Etrac too, mainly because they have much bigger coil options right now that gives me more coverage and depth over the 11" on on the Nox. When the 15'' one comes out, I'll see how they compare and make a decision then on which one works the best for a certain application. Right now, I like the Excal for wet sand and water when I need the coverage. I use the Etrac in the dry for the same reason, plus it's better at I.D.ing bottle caps. The thing I like about the Nox, is that it's very good at doing both wet and dry, with the advantage of finding tiny gold and platinum the others can't.

 

[MObushwhacker]

Would the manufactures' lie to you? I got one of them "See what it is before you dig it up machines