WARD BASED HIS STORY ON ORIGINAL "THE BEALE PAPERS" PUBLISHED 1850

[Old Silver]

Consider this....thousands of researchers have scoured records for more then 125 years since the pamphlet's publication...."still no Thomas J. Beale to fill the billing." Why? And it is way unlikely that the author got his intended name wrong. He is the main focus of the book, the most important subject in the book.

It wouldn't be getting the name wrong exactly, just an alternate spelling. That's a common thing.
There are Thomas J. Beals close to the right time, but I haven't found any that's exactly right.

 

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[Old Silver]

BEALE PAPERS was written in 1885; STILL possible... what cha got...?

There's a Thomas J. Beale that died in Oregon in 1885. He was born in 1822, but I don't know where.
Then there's a Thomas J. Beale who was born in VA 1826 and died in CA 1884.

 

[bigscoop]

It wouldn't be getting the name wrong exactly, just an alternate spelling. That's a common thing.
There are Thomas J. Beals close to the right time, but I haven't found any that's exactly right.

If it's one thing the author is going to get right, it's going to be the correct/intended spelling of the main character's name. Yes, alternate spellings were common, but in this case, as the main character in a story, the correct/accurate spelling of this name is everything.

 

[Old Silver]

If it's one thing the author is going to get right, it's going to be the correct/intended spelling of the main character's name. Yes, alternate spellings were common, but in this case, as the main character in a story, the correct/accurate spelling of this name is everything.

The author may not have had any way of knowing what the correct spelling was. There are disagreements over these things, even between people who share the name.

 

[bigscoop]

The author may not have had any way of knowing what the correct spelling was. There are disagreements over these things, even between people who share the name.

Just saying, "if" Morriss knew him well, even had his name in a guest register, then that name was known and passed on correctly. But even if not, you're still banking on the assumption that thousands of researchers, both professional and armature, having been unable to find the right Beale, Beall, etc., in 135 years of searching. I think this should tell us a lot about Thomas J. Beale. I think it tells us that he never existed in real person. If he had, with so many looking, he would have been found and identified by now.

 

[Old Silver]

Just saying, "if" Morriss knew him well, even had his name in a guest register, then that name was known and passed on correctly. But even if not, you're still banking on the assumption that thousands of researchers, both professional and armature, having been unable to find the right Beale, Beall, etc., in 135 years of searching. I think this should tell us a lot about Thomas J. Beale. I think it tells us that he never existed in real person. If he had, with so many looking, he would have been found and identified by now.

I'm saying that the J might not have ever been given in any document, but still could have existed. People don't always spell out their whole name, or even middle initial. And in the old days they didn't have to give their life history when signing something.

 

[bigscoop]

I'm saying that the J might not have ever been given in any document, but still could have existed. People don't always spell out their whole name, or even middle initial. And in the old days they didn't have to give their life history when signing something.

Drop the "J" then.....now find the correct Beale, which still hasn't been done yet. All I'm saying is that we may as well change his last name to Smith at this point. Once we start changing the content, and especially true with names, then we're simply rewriting the story to suit us. How were the letters signed? Did the writer of those alleged letters get his own name wrong? Those letters carry, "T.J.B."

 

[Old Silver]

Drop the "J" then.....now find the correct Beale, which still hasn't been done yet. All I'm saying is that we may as well change his last name to Smith at this point. Once we start changing the content, and especially true with names, then we're simply rewriting the story to suit us. How were the letters signed? Did the writer of those alleged letters get his own name wrong?

If we find where he signed his own name, yeah. but someone writing down his name would likely write it as it sounded to them. That's largely the way things were done back then. I'm not trying to fit things to suit my theory, because I really don't have a theory. But I want to consider what I think is possible while I try to figure it out. None of us know the whole truth of it. We keep looking.

 

[bigscoop]

If we find where he signed his own name, yeah. but someone writing down his name would likely write it as it sounded to them. That's largely the way things were done back then. I'm not trying to fit things to suit my theory, because I really don't have a theory. But I want to consider what I think is possible while I try to figure it out. None of us know the whole truth of it. We keep looking.

Well, keep looking and good luck. But I wouldn't hold my breath. Even with various spellings there's still no truly fitting suspect after 135 years of searching. I can already tell you, with so many looking, I'm not going to find him if someone else hasn't by now.

 

[releventchair]

The advertiser-courier. (Hermann, Mo.), 1885-07-01 :: Hermann Advertiser and Advertiser-Courier, 1875-1922

Far right column about halfway down under the heading Democratic rule shows a figure of wealth and a separate mention of monies alleged to have been stolen by sympathizers in advance of unrest.
A treasury department purchase of silver mentioned elsewhere. Too Burchard,mint director, refusing to resign. Interesting slice of 1855 and the past war and politics being a factor in their present time.
Missing funds. Mention of precious metal. Political wounds and civil ones with suspicion of intrigue as to how money disappeared would all make for a pamphlet related to the current and recent decades gossip back then hold an appeal. The story of a vault of treasure in a lost land may have had greater knowledge back then than today depending on number of Masons.

 

[bigscoop]

It's all interesting. But in just a few post here we have changed names, the defined era, etc., so in essence we've just created an entirely different tale. This has always been the problem with the Ward/Hutter/Sherman theory as none of them survived in the designated era 1817- 1822. So ESC is correct when he suggest that it's just a dime novel because once you create all of these changes to the story is all just fiction created by the minds of men. So either the designated era is correct or it's just a simple dime novel with a mystery that's been solely created by modern man.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

There's a Thomas J. Beale that died in Oregon in 1885. He was born in 1822, but I don't know where.
Then there's a Thomas J. Beale who was born in VA 1826 and died in CA 1884.

SECOND one is interesting; Thomas Jefferson DIED in 1826; 1884 is when JB Ward, AGENT for the author of Beale PAPERS, requested copy-right on the TITLE... didn't even send in a MANUSCRIPT! Notice also... Beale PAPERS! Bunch of papers/stories COMPILED into one PAMPHLET, by the INNER COMMITTEE/FRIENDS, starting in 1882!

 

[ECS]

SECOND one is interesting; Thomas Jefferson DIED in 1826; 1884 is when JB Ward, AGENT for the author of Beale PAPERS, requested copy-right on the TITLE... didn't even send in a MANUSCRIPT! Notice also... Beale PAPERS! Bunch of papers/stories COMPILED into one PAMPHLET, by the INNER COMMITTEE/FRIENDS, starting in 1882!

1882 was the year John Pickrell Risque of New Mexico was killed by indians inspecting gold and siler mine properties in Gold Gulch.
If one studies the various histories of the extended Risque familes,there exists many similarities to the events depicted in the 1885 Beale pamphlet,combined with the 1850 BEALE PAPERS and the SKETCHES of Margaret Anthony Cabell.
As Rebel-KGC says,FACTION-Fiction based on fact...with the threads woven into a western treasure tale.
All in the family.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

It's all interesting. But in just a few post here we have changed names, the defined era, etc., so in essence we've just created an entirely different tale. This has always been the problem with the Ward/Hutter/Sherman theory as none of them survived in the designated era 1817- 1822. So ESC is correct when he suggest that it's just a dime novel because once you create all of these changes to the story is all just fiction created by the minds of men. So either the designated era is correct or it's just a simple dime novel with a mystery that's been solely created by modern man.

Both Ward & the Hutters lived way beyond the "era" you mention; Beale Papers is just THAT. Bunch of papers/stories compiled by the INNER CIRCLE/FRIENDS, stating in 1882.

 

[bigscoop]

Both Ward & the Hutters lived way beyond the "era" you mention; Beale Papers is just THAT. Bunch of papers/stories compiled by the INNER CIRCLE/FRIENDS, stating in 1882.

So you are now convinced it's just a dime novel? Can't have it both ways Reb. Not too long ago you were solid on the CSA theory. So which is it, dime novel or CSA coverup? Can't keep jumping ship every time the wind changes.

As far as a "good mix" of family sources, could be right, but still just another theory in the long list of theories. All of it is interesting to explore but still pointless in the big picture.....still nothing conclusive.

I'll stick to my guns in stating just as I always have.....it was either a simple dime novel or a U.S./French thing that actually took place in the era described.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

1882 was the year John Pickrell Risque of New Mexico was killed by indians inspecting gold and siler mine properties in Gold Gulch.
If one studies the various histories of the extended Risque familes,there exists many similarities to the events depicted in the 1885 Beale pamphlet,combined with the 1850 BEALE PAPERS and the SKETCHES of Margaret Anthony Cabell.
As Rebel-KGC says,FACTION-Fiction based on fact...with the threads woven into a western treasure tale.
All in the family.

YEP! You GOT IT!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

So you are now convinced it's just a dime novel? Can't have it both ways Reb. Not too long ago you were solid on the CSA theory. So which is it, dime novel or CSA coverup? Can't keep jumping ship every time the wind changes.

As far as a "good mix" of family sources, could be right, but still just another theory in the long list of theories. All of it is interesting to explore but still pointless in the big picture.....still nothing conclusive.

I'll stick to my guns in stating just as I always have.....it was either a simple dime novel or a U.S./French thing that actually took place in the era described.

NOPE! NOT a "Dime Novel", NOR "French Thing"...

 

[bigscoop]

1882 was the year John Pickrell Risque of New Mexico was killed by indians inspecting gold and siler mine properties in Gold Gulch.
If one studies the various histories of the extended Risque familes,there exists many similarities to the events depicted in the 1885 Beale pamphlet,combined with the 1850 BEALE PAPERS and the SKETCHES of Margaret Anthony Cabell.
As Rebel-KGC says,FACTION-Fiction based on fact...with the threads woven into a western treasure tale.
All in the family.

One could say this same thing about a lot of families during the effected era. Yes? That's been my whole point all along.....times were much different back then, way different. There were a lot of people/families involved in various enterprises aimed at the west. But I do think you're correct about Risque, that he was involved. I just don't think it was in the way you believe.

 

[bigscoop]

NOPE! NOT a "Dime Novel", NOR "French Thing"...

Of course not. Let me remind you, you just told ECS, "You got it!" This after he wrote that he believes it was just a dime novel based on several source materials.

 

[Old Silver]

It's all interesting. But in just a few post here we have changed names, the defined era, etc., so in essence we've just created an entirely different tale. This has always been the problem with the Ward/Hutter/Sherman theory as none of them survived in the designated era 1817- 1822. So ESC is correct when he suggest that it's just a dime novel because once you create all of these changes to the story is all just fiction created by the minds of men. So either the designated era is correct or it's just a simple dime novel with a mystery that's been solely created by modern man.

bigscoop, you keep accusing people of changing things about the story, but didn't you change the story yourself, by saying the hunting party didn't really happen, but was a possible cover story for something else? Isn't that creating an entirely different tale? I tend to agree with that possibility, btw. No one is changing anything, just considering possibilities. If we don't consider possibilities, how will we ever find out anything? And judging by what I know of the past, I can tell you that alternate spellings of names is no great reason for concern.